SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm talking realistic estimates here based on uk current debt which has skyrocketed with covid. It's still rising and will continue to do so until you (might) leave in a few years time so the sky is the limit and it's impossible to put a number on it  but I've seen  no estimates that put you anywhere near the rules.

Follow all that with 10 years of isolationism.

What estimates have you seen that put you anywhere near the EU criteria?

Last time I raised it with rookie he claimed scotland would just walk away from their share. Are you proposing the same?

You think the EU will inflame the catalan issue to accommodate you? No chance. Dreaming.

What estimates are you referring to in respect to notional Scottish debt? 

I have no intention of advocating that my country walk away from its LEGAL obligations, but I would expect that every single line item was backed up with receipts - and all those billions you paid for your useless covid phone app and your corrupt PPE contracts, we won't be paying a brass farthing towards those. 

How many times does the Spanish government need to make clear that they would have no issue with an independent Scotland joining the EU if it left the UK through legal means? It has been stated by various Spanish representatives on more than one occasion, yet still the message seems not to have sunk in.

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What estimates are you referring to in respect to notional Scottish debt? 

I have no intention of advocating that my country walk away from its LEGAL obligations, but I would expect that every single line item was backed up with receipts - and all those billions you paid for your useless covid phone app and your corrupt PPE contracts, we won't be paying a brass farthing towards those. 

How many times does the Spanish government need to make clear that they would have no issue with an independent Scotland joining the EU if it left the UK through legal means? It has been stated by various Spanish representatives on more than one occasion, yet still the message seems not to have sunk in.

Well debt isn't going to fall, is it? You won't be in a position to choose which parts you want and which parts you don't. But if you want to pretend you can walk away from your debt that's not really a conversation worth continuing.

So how about the public spending deficit? 8.6% when the EU rules state 3%. Doesn't sound too promising.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2020/08/scotlands-deficit-higher-than-nhs-budget/

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Well debt isn't going to fall, is it? You won't be in a position to choose which parts you want and which parts you don't. But if you want to pretend you can walk away from your debt that's not really a conversation worth continuing.

So how about the public spending deficit? 8.6% when the EU rules state 3%. Doesn't sound too promising.

https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2020/08/scotlands-deficit-higher-than-nhs-budget/

Negotiations will result, hopefully, in an acceptable, mutually agreed share of the UK debt being allocated to all parties involved. It serves nobody any good to try to threaten to walk away from their obligations, like Johnson did with the EU.

But no to the Scottish taxpayers paying for the corrupt contracts issued by our corrupt Tory government; all others will be forensically inspected to ensure that they are above board and reasonable. Just to repeat - your country voted tory; your country's taxpayers must pay for their corrupt acts. 

The article you cite overlooks several key facts. Firstly, independence means that we are not required to follow the same fiscal policies of the current government; our spending commitments will be for us to decide, not for another country to dictate; our economy will be released from the death grip of Westminster and we will be able to develop it to suit our own needs, not those of city speculators. Basically, when you are going to throw  out all the bad old stuff, don't use the data that the bad old stuff generated to forecast the future with new, improved things. 

[JonnyF]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What estimates are you referring to in respect to notional Scottish debt? 

Here is one.

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/news-and-opinion/scottish-independence-debt-and-assets

It's 4 years old but still valid. It's pre Covid financial destruction, but even at this stage you are well over the 60% for joining. Since then debt has increased to over 2 trillion, so your share would be more like 160 Billion with your GDP at 205 Billion you're still looking at around 80% compared to the 60% the EU wants.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Here is one.

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/news-and-opinion/scottish-independence-debt-and-assets

It's 4 years old but still valid. It's pre Covid financial destruction, but even at this stage you are well over the 60% for joining. Since then debt has increased to over 2 trillion, so your share would be more like 160 Billion with your GDP at 205 Billion you're still looking at around 80% compared to the 60% the EU wants.

As I said, you are supposing that Scotland will be managed in the future as it is managed now; that will not be the case, or it misses the entire point of independence. The Westminster model is skewed towards the SE and ignores the extremities. That impacts not only Scotland, but we seem to be the only ones overly concerned. 

We will not have the same wasteful spending policies, we will not have the same tax base, we will not have to operate within the same fiscal framework provided by the UK treasury. Also, don't forget to factor in the £10 million a day rent you will be paying on Faslane until you remove your weapons of mass destruction. 

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Negotiations will result, hopefully, in an acceptable, mutually agreed share of the UK debt being allocated to all parties involved. It serves nobody any good to try to threaten to walk away from their obligations, like Johnson did with the EU.

But no to the Scottish taxpayers paying for the corrupt contracts issued by our corrupt Tory government; all others will be forensically inspected to ensure that they are above board and reasonable. Just to repeat - your country voted tory; your country's taxpayers must pay for their corrupt acts. 

The article you cite overlooks several key facts. Firstly, independence means that we are not required to follow the same fiscal policies of the current government; our spending commitments will be for us to decide, not for another country to dictate; our economy will be released from the death grip of Westminster and we will be able to develop it to suit our own needs, not those of city speculators. Basically, when you are going to throw  out all the bad old stuff, don't use the data that the bad old stuff generated to forecast the future with new, improved things. 

You'll have no trade deals with the EU or the UK (your biggest trading partners). And all the trade deals that the UK has made since Brexit will also be lost. Oil prices are rock bottom. The fallout from Covid will continue. You'll have very limited control over your monetary policy due to using our currency. And you think those are the ingredients for an economy to improve? Are you serious?

By the time the EU checks your finances in about 10 years from now you'll be close to bankrupt. They don't need any more charity cases.

It's a suicide mission. But hey, good luck.????

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

You'll have no trade deals with the EU or the UK (your biggest trading partners). And all the trade deals that the UK has made since Brexit will also be lost. Oil prices are rock bottom. The fallout from Covid will continue. You'll have very limited control over your monetary policy due to using our currency. And you think those are the ingredients for an economy to improve? Are you serious?

By the time the EU checks your finances in about 10 years from now you'll be close to bankrupt. They don't need any more charity cases.

It's a suicide mission. But hey, good luck.????

The EU will facilitate a trade deal very quickly, of this I am sure.

Why would we not be able to work out a deal with rUK? Do you think that the rUK government can lose it's third largest trading partner without feeling pain?

If rUK was to act hostile, do you not think that there may be some problems as a result?

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

I'm talking realistic estimates here based on uk current debt which has skyrocketed with covid. It's still rising and will continue to do so until you (might) leave in a few years time so the sky is the limit and it's impossible to put a number on it  but I've seen  no estimates that put you anywhere near the rules.

Follow all that with 10 years of isolationism.

What estimates have you seen that put you anywhere near the EU criteria?

Last time I raised it with rookie he claimed scotland would just walk away from their share. Are you proposing the same?

You think the EU will inflame the catalan issue to accommodate you? No chance. Dreaming.

I did not say Scotland WOULD just walk away from its share. I said it COULD walk away if Brexitland decides to try and dictate the negotiations. I was pointing out that Brexitland does not hold all the cards.

Odd how the only bit you remember is the walking away bit.

Spain has already said it will not object to a Scottish application to rejoin the EU.

But you knew this already because its been pointed out to you and the other Brexiteers many times.

[JonnyF]

49 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The EU will facilitate a trade deal very quickly, of this I am sure.

Why would we not be able to work out a deal with rUK? Do you think that the rUK government can lose it's third largest trading partner without feeling pain?

If rUK was to act hostile, do you not think that there may be some problems as a result?

What evidence do you have that the EU will facilitate a deal quickly. It's not exactly their MO for trade deals now is it? It's not like Scotland does represents a huge chunk of their trade. They move at a glacial pace. 4 and a half years for the UK deal was considered rapid.

The rest of your post seems to be the same as the Brexiteer argument for getting a deal with the EU, you know, the one you've been arguing against for 5 years. ????

[vogie]

"David Davis MP, former cabinet minister, has used parliamentary privilege to reveal leaked details from a whistleblower relating to the Alex Salmond inquiry at Holyrood.

Davis said on Tuesday evening in a debate at Westminster that documents from the whistleblower suggested there was a “concerted effort by senior members of the SNP to encourage complaints” against Salmond."

https://reaction.life/david-davis-uses-parliamentary-privilege-to-reveal-sturgeon-whistleblower-leaks-full-speech/

 

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

What evidence do you have that the EU will facilitate a deal quickly. It's not exactly their MO for trade deals now is it? It's not like Scotland does represents a huge chunk of their trade. They move at a glacial pace. 4 and a half years for the UK deal was considered rapid.

The rest of your post seems to be the same as the Brexiteer argument for getting a deal with the EU, you know, the one you've been arguing against for 5 years. ????

As part of the UK, Scotland already has decades of experience as a cooperative and contributory member of the EU. We are mostly in compliance with rules and regulations, and Scots law currently requires that future EU legislation and directives continue to be incorporated into Scots law so we will continue to be in compliance as time goes on.

Add to that the fact that the EU has made many indications that they see no obstacles should Scotland seek entry, and I am confident that we will be back in the fold in no time.

As for the rest, certainly there would require to be a higher level of competence in the rUK side, and a willingness to see the other parties as equals rather than something to be exploited. Things could get very messy for all parties should the same hubristic approach be taken by Westminster. 

[bkkcanuck8]

41 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You'll have no trade deals with the EU or the UK (your biggest trading partners). And all the trade deals that the UK has made since Brexit will also be lost. Oil prices are rock bottom. The fallout from Covid will continue. You'll have very limited control over your monetary policy due to using our currency. And you think those are the ingredients for an economy to improve? Are you serious?

By the time the EU checks your finances in about 10 years from now you'll be close to bankrupt. They don't need any more charity cases.

It's a suicide mission. But hey, good luck.????

That makes me laugh that someone would use that as a standard for not exiting the Union since the UK lost a lot of that as part of Brexit.  

From this point on 'England' will refer to the remaining members of the UK whether it is England or England & Wales. 

The trade deal with England will depend on relations post exit from the Union - but there are reasons on both sides not to make it a friendly affair (i.e. otherwise lights out England).   I have heard this type of threat before as part of 'Project Fear' with Quebec -- it is counter productive long-term.  Carrying out threats like that have real negative consequences for all parties.  Both Scotland and the England would have to approach any negotiations from a point of their own interests and work towards something that works for both (something that UK has failed to do because of pandering to the hard-Brexit crowd).  So what is the consequence of carrying out that threat?  The result would be an even tighter integration with EU more important and giving EU priority with regards to Energy security moving forward - reducing the energy security of England.  It would also have negative consequences with international relations with 'colonies' as like Ireland and the US (Ireland has more political pull in the US than the UK does).   There were essentially full towns removed from Scotland and transplanted to 'the colonies', and while people may no longer identify as Scottish (I definitely don't) - if relations soured between Scotland and UK - it would not play well with many people who may not identify as Scottish but are aware of their genealogical roots (and there are far more people that have Scottish roots than live in Scotland). 

Now back to response on currency... with Scotland making up less than 10% of the population of the UK (and England 80%+) -- Scotland already has very little input in monetary policy.  Scotland would likely implement a monetary board which is based on a basket of foreign reserves backing it (Estonia had that in the interim)... this would likely mean that Scotland would be more financially disciplined than the UK at this point.

Trade deals, the UK lost most of the trade deals that were in place as the EU and any that they have are basically giving the UK an interim deal (or worse as in the case of the Japanese one).  I don't see much to lose there, in fact with Scotland more willing to negotiate with the EU and accept market standards from the EU that they will be in a better position to negotiate an interim trade agreement with the EU and likely a fast track to join (Scotland is not Turkey). 

Some major investment banks are starting to make some major bets on the crude prices heading back to around $100 (not sure I agree, but I am not an 'expert').  I believe this is partially based on the expectation that the economy will start to rebound as part of getting a better control over COVID.   Oil prices will likely stay either low, or head up very quickly (there seems to be very little middle ground these days). 

If Scotland were to vote to exit the UK, the independence based parties would likely splinter and party politics would re-align (removing one of the major goals makes other issues come to the forefront and any differences would lead to a realignment.

Brexit as it is currently implemented is effectively a 'suicide mission' -- or at least a greatly reduced UK going forward (the Empire is gone, the realignment to be important financial industry-wise to the UE -- is being wiped out)... it will end up redlining to being a moderately sized economy in the world with a much reduced presence on the world stage (the US will no longer view the UK as closer ally within the EU - so the 'special relationship' is now moot, small or mid sized north American corporations will not see the UK as a place to setup shop as a means of entering the EU economy within an English speaking country [I expect the Netherlands to benefit greatly].)

Would there be a period of adjustment that could be hard?  Yes, but if separating - doing it now would be the best time to do it as a lot of the price has been paid as part of Brexit. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

"David Davis MP, former cabinet minister, has used parliamentary privilege to reveal leaked details from a whistleblower relating to the Alex Salmond inquiry at Holyrood.

Davis said on Tuesday evening in a debate at Westminster that documents from the whistleblower suggested there was a “concerted effort by senior members of the SNP to encourage complaints” against Salmond."

https://reaction.life/david-davis-uses-parliamentary-privilege-to-reveal-sturgeon-whistleblower-leaks-full-speech/

 

That's no problem - Patel broke ministerial rules; Hancock broke the law; Johnson lied to parliament and Mogg lied to the queen, all without even a murmur of disapproval. 

Those are all facts; all Davis has are 'suggestions' of which he is so uncertain, he doesn't have the balls to say them outside parliament.

[andyg75]

On 3/7/2021 at 3:38 PM, Sujo said:

Because england arent the only country in the uk. You would also need wales and NI to agree.

 

But be careful as they all may kick england out to go it alone.

I’ve noticed on many threads on here if there is anything anti ,English your there having a pop at the English.May I ask which country you come from. Thank you.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That's no problem - Patel broke ministerial rules; Hancock broke the law; Johnson lied to parliament and Mogg lied to the queen, all without even a murmur of disapproval. 

Those are all facts; all Davis has are 'suggestions' of which he is so uncertain, he doesn't have the balls to say them outside parliament.

I think you are under-rating what is being said here RR, we are talking about an innocent man being sent to prison, this should bring down the SNP never mind Sturgeon and her inner sanctum. You seem to be blowing a bit hot and cold about Sturgeon at the moment, this is a hot potato RR.

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think you are under-rating what is being said here RR, we are talking about an innocent man being sent to prison, this should bring down the SNP never mind Sturgeon and her inner sanctum. You seem to be blowing a bit hot and cold about Sturgeon at the moment, this is a hot potato RR.

Bring down the SNP? Is this on your drive to eradicate opinions which differ from your own?

Let's see what the outcome is, shall we, and if guilty of misconduct, let's hold her to the same standards as she would be were she in the Nasty Party.

Or do you think she should be held to a different standard?

[Surelynot]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

If you think you'll walk away from  the uk without taking your share of the debt then think again.

Isn't that what Johnson promised.....not a penny would go to the EU....they could go whistle???

 

Boris Johnson has suggested European leaders can “go whistle” if they expect Britain to pay a divorce bill for withdrawing from the European Union.

Speaking in the House of Commons, he also told MPs that the government had “no plan for no deal” because of its confidence in securing a strong Brexit settlement with the bloc.

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Bring down the SNP? Is this on your drive to eradicate opinions which differ from your own?

Let's see what the outcome is, shall we, and if guilty of misconduct, let's hold her to the same standards as she would be were she in the Nasty Party.

Or do you think she should be held to a different standard?

I think that anyone who tries to imprison an innocent man deserves everything that can be afforded to her, and when there was a hearing called it happened to be weighted in Mrs Sturgeons favour and even the presiding officer was her friend and fellow SNP member, sounds about right for the corrupt and Sleazy National Party, one might look at this as a crime, what say you RR?

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, andyg75 said:

I’ve noticed on many threads on here if there is anything anti ,English your there having a pop at the English.May I ask which country you come from. Thank you.

NI and oz.

I dont know any english threads. Rarely posted on brexit but thats uk.

Not anti english, i support them in rugby. I have also supported harry and meg.

What i dont like is them telling another country what it can and cannot do.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Sujo

[Rookiescot]

49 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

That makes me laugh that someone would use that as a standard for not exiting the Union since the UK lost a lot of that as part of Brexit.  

From this point on 'England' will refer to the remaining members of the UK whether it is England or England & Wales. 

The trade deal with England will depend on relations post exit from the Union - but there are reasons on both sides not to make it a friendly affair (i.e. otherwise lights out England).   I have heard this type of threat before as part of 'Project Fear' with Quebec -- it is counter productive long-term.  Carrying out threats like that have real negative consequences for all parties.  Both Scotland and the England would have to approach any negotiations from a point of their own interests and work towards something that works for both (something that UK has failed to do because of pandering to the hard-Brexit crowd).  So what is the consequence of carrying out that threat?  The result would be an even tighter integration with EU more important and giving EU priority with regards to Energy security moving forward - reducing the energy security of England.  It would also have negative consequences with international relations with 'colonies' as like Ireland and the US (Ireland has more political pull in the US than the UK does).   There were essentially full towns removed from Scotland and transplanted to 'the colonies', and while people may no longer identify as Scottish (I definitely don't) - if relations soured between Scotland and UK - it would not play well with many people who may not identify as Scottish but are aware of their genealogical roots (and there are far more people that have Scottish roots than live in Scotland). 

Now back to response on currency... with Scotland making up less than 10% of the population of the UK (and England 80%+) -- Scotland already has very little input in monetary policy.  Scotland would likely implement a monetary board which is based on a basket of foreign reserves backing it (Estonia had that in the interim)... this would likely mean that Scotland would be more financially disciplined than the UK at this point.

Trade deals, the UK lost most of the trade deals that were in place as the EU and any that they have are basically giving the UK an interim deal (or worse as in the case of the Japanese one).  I don't see much to lose there, in fact with Scotland more willing to negotiate with the EU and accept market standards from the EU that they will be in a better position to negotiate an interim trade agreement with the EU and likely a fast track to join (Scotland is not Turkey). 

Some major investment banks are starting to make some major bets on the crude prices heading back to around $100 (not sure I agree, but I am not an 'expert').  I believe this is partially based on the expectation that the economy will start to rebound as part of getting a better control over COVID.   Oil prices will likely stay either low, or head up very quickly (there seems to be very little middle ground these days). 

If Scotland were to vote to exit the UK, the independence based parties would likely splinter and party politics would re-align (removing one of the major goals makes other issues come to the forefront and any differences would lead to a realignment.

Brexit as it is currently implemented is effectively a 'suicide mission' -- or at least a greatly reduced UK going forward (the Empire is gone, the realignment to be important financial industry-wise to the UE -- is being wiped out)... it will end up redlining to being a moderately sized economy in the world with a much reduced presence on the world stage (the US will no longer view the UK as closer ally within the EU - so the 'special relationship' is now moot, small or mid sized north American corporations will not see the UK as a place to setup shop as a means of entering the EU economy within an English speaking country [I expect the Netherlands to benefit greatly].)

Would there be a period of adjustment that could be hard?  Yes, but if separating - doing it now would be the best time to do it as a lot of the price has been paid as part of Brexit. 

 

 

Its astonishing that a Canadian (?) has more grasp of whats going on in the UK and in particular Scotland than most of the English nationalists on here.

All we seem to get are the same discredited claims from them regarding independence. They get proven as nonsense and then a month or so later get brought back up again. 

You hate the English (no we dont. Most of us have English family and friends).

Currency (we can use the pound whether England likes it or not. We will also be entitled to around 8% of the assets held by the Bank of England. If Scotland stops using the pound or adopts the Euro then circa 10% of the pounds value disappears overnight. You guys should be hoping and praying we keep using the pound).

Spain wont let you in the EU ( Spain has said several times it would and likely to be keen on the idea given our fishing waters are huge compared to dear old Brexitland).

Border (OK we might have to have one in order to stop refugees flooding in from Brexitland).

Trade (Again its mutually beneficial for Scotland and Brexitland to carry on trading with each other. Trade goes BOTH ways. Given Brexit neither country can afford to start even more disruption).

Debt/GDP (will depend on negotiations as to how much debt we service. Now take note of this Brexiteers. The debt will not actually transfer to a Scottish bank account somewhere. Westminster took out the debt. Its in the UK's name. So what will happen is Scotland will agree to service a portion of that debt i.e. pay the interest. So technically we will have no debt if we chose to apply to join the EU. This would give us one of the best debt to GDP ratios on the planet).

Armed forces (Scotland will be due a proportion of men and equipment from all the armed services upon leaving. Now given we have no intension of invading countries like Afghanistan our needs will be relatively small so its shouldn't prove to be much of an issue. Now there is likely to be a bit of horse trading here. We will not want aircraft carriers and nuclear subs. Surface ships and some fighters for fisheries protection would suffice and maybe a few helicopter gunships for hunting wild haggis). 

Now those are just a few off the top of my head but can I ask all you English/British nationalist Brexiteers to print this off and refer to it before you post the same stuff time after time in every Scotland related thread. Will save everyone a lot of repeated effort.

At least try and come up with some new reasons. Alien invasion maybe. Or Rannoch moor becoming a super volcano again. Anything you want just to change the monotony.  

[RuamRudy]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think that anyone who tries to imprison an innocent man deserves everything that can be afforded to her, and when there was a hearing called it happened to be weighted in Mrs Sturgeons favour and even the presiding officer was her friend and fellow SNP member, sounds about right for the corrupt and Sleazy National Party, one might look at this as a crime, what say you RR?

The Presiding Officer is a Labour MSP, but I didn't expect that you would have known that anyway, given your scant understanding of Scotland or Scottish politics. The make-up of the committee investigating the affair is, as standard, proportionate to the parties represented in the parliament, hardly Sturgeon's fault that the electorate sees the alternatives as woeful. But I am reluctant to pass judgement until the committee has ruled.

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

WHAT!!!!

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its astonishing that a Canadian (?) has more grasp of whats going on in the UK and in particular Scotland than most of the English nationalists on here.

All we seem to get are the same discredited claims from them regarding independence. They get proven as nonsense and then a month or so later get brought back up again. 

You hate the English (no we dont. Most of us have English family and friends).

Currency (we can use the pound whether England likes it or not. We will also be entitled to around 8% of the assets held by the Bank of England. If Scotland stops using the pound or adopts the Euro then circa 10% of the pounds value disappears overnight. You guys should be hoping and praying we keep using the pound).

Spain wont let you in the EU ( Spain has said several times it would and likely to be keen on the idea given our fishing waters are huge compared to dear old Brexitland).

Border (OK we might have to have one in order to stop refugees flooding in from Brexitland).

Trade (Again its mutually beneficial for Scotland and Brexitland to carry on trading with each other. Trade goes BOTH ways. Given Brexit neither country can afford to start even more disruption).

Debt/GDP (will depend on negotiations as to how much debt we service. Now take note of this Brexiteers. The debt will not actually transfer to a Scottish bank account somewhere. Westminster took out the debt. Its in the UK's name. So what will happen is Scotland will agree to service a portion of that debt i.e. pay the interest. So technically we will have no debt if we chose to apply to join the EU. This would give us one of the best debt to GDP ratios on the planet).

Armed forces (Scotland will be due a proportion of men and equipment from all the armed services upon leaving. Now given we have no intension of invading countries like Afghanistan our needs will be relatively small so its shouldn't prove to be much of an issue. Now there is likely to be a bit of horse trading here. We will not want aircraft carriers and nuclear subs. Surface ships and some fighters for fisheries protection would suffice and maybe a few helicopter gunships for hunting wild haggis). 

Now those are just a few off the top of my head but can I ask all you English/British nationalist Brexiteers to print this off and refer to it before you post the same stuff time after time in every Scotland related thread. Will save everyone a lot of repeated effort.

At least try and come up with some new reasons. Alien invasion maybe. Or Rannoch moor becoming a super volcano again. Anything you want just to change the monotony.  

Canadian

• Father's side
  • Grandparents both from Scotland - but 'immigrated' (one dead before I was born, one living til I was 16 or so [that side was probably Scottish/Irish since I think they hopped back and forth between Northern Ireland on a regular basis for many generations
• Mother's side
  • probably 3 or 4 generation Canadian (with a bit going back to 1600s -- following the fish)
    • mostly Scottish/Irish/resettled Dutch [to Ireland] and a bit of English heritage
• Both parents were born in Montreal.  Extended family mostly split between Montreal area and United States.

Worked in Canada and the United States [and the UK]....  while working for a company in the United States I was tasked (VP) to open up our first 'European' office in the UK (initially our office started off with about 10 Americans and 1 other Canadian] so I lived and worked in London for many years.  Now I live in Thailand (I am frugal so the prices in the UK offended me ????)

Fiscally I am a Conservative, socially Liberal (more or less a libertarian) but understand that I am usually outside of the center of the body politic - and government should reflect society as a whole....  I do believe in the EU experiment, but it would be best served with some reform (and the EU government is going to reflect society of the EU as a whole).  

 

 

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The Presiding Officer is a Labour MSP, but I didn't expect that you would have known that anyway, given your scant understanding of Scotland or Scottish politics. The make-up of the committee investigating the affair is, as standard, proportionate to the parties represented in the parliament, hardly Sturgeon's fault that the electorate sees the alternatives as woeful. But I am reluctant to pass judgement until the committee has ruled.

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

I don't care who it is, Scottish MP, UK Mp, fishmonger, door to door salesperson, footballer or even a clown with dodgy doors on his car, they themselves should go to prison for a crime of false imprisonment.

[Rookiescot]

25 minutes ago, vogie said:

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

I don't care who it is, Scottish MP, UK Mp, fishmonger, door to door salesperson, footballer or even a clown with dodgy doors on his car, they themselves should go to prison for a crime of false imprisonment.

So given the long list of Tory politicians who have broken the laws or rules or indeed lied why are you not calling for their heads?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

So given the long list of Tory politicians who have broken the laws or rules or indeed lied why are you not calling for their heads?

I'm struggling to think of one that tried to imprison an innocent man, if you can remind me of that person I will agree he or she needs to go to jail also.

But whataboutery is the tool of the Scots Nats it would appear.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, vogie said:

I'm struggling to think of one that tried to imprison an innocent man, if you can remind me of that person I will agree he or she needs to go to jail also.

But whataboutery is the tool of the Scots Nats it would appear.

How do you know Sturgeon or anyone from the SNP tried to get an innocent man jailed?

[Sujo]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I'm struggling to think of one that tried to imprison an innocent man, if you can remind me of that person I will agree he or she needs to go to jail also.

But whataboutery is the tool of the Scots Nats it would appear.

Is that the only crime you take issue with?

[7by7]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

If the SNP make it clear in their manifesto that a vote for them means support for Indyref2 and over 50% of voters vote for the SNP then I would say that is a mandate for a second referendum.

As the SNP are not the only Scottish party which supports independence, I would amend that to "If those parties who support Scottish independence make it clear in their manifestoes that a vote for them means support for Indyref2 and over 50% of voters vote for those parties then I would say that is a mandate for a second referendum."

BTW, only 43.6% of voters voted Tory in December 2019. Does your insistence on a 50% plus vote share in Scotland mean that you believe they have no mandate for Brexit?

[7by7]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

6 hours ago, Sujo said:

Quite fortunate you were allowed to leave without asking them if you can.

Nothing fortunate about it. It was built into the terms. It wasnt luck. It was law.

Like all Acts of Parliament, the Acts of Union can be repealed.

Just as the Acts of Union 1800 were amended in the UK to keep Northern Ireland in the Union, but repealed in the Republic.