Democrats push Biden's $1.9 trillion COVID bill through Senate on party-line vote

[impulse]

1 hour ago, candide said:

As mentioned several times, the hypothesis that covid deaths are overestimated doesn't hold. The number of excess deaths is well over the number of Covid deaths. In the FT article, the latest number of excess death reported is 467,897 as of 16 January. At this time the official member of Covid 19 deaths was only 392,361, so the number of Covid death is likely underestimated.

https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938

Maybe. 

But how many people died early because they lost access to health care during the pandemic, or from suicide or other causes related to the shutdown, as opposed to the actual disease? 

It's going to be years, if ever, before we know what policies served us well and which ones made things worse. 

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

Maybe. 

But how many people died early because they lost access to health care during the pandemic, or from suicide or other causes related to the shutdown, as opposed to the actual disease? 

It's going to be years, if ever, before we know what policies served us well and which ones made things worse. 

 

Maybe, but the difference between Covid death and excess death is quite important: around + 20%, and no other significant cause of death have been reported, I.e. suicide rate was similar in 2020 (14.8) to previous years. If you know about some stats about other causes, feel free to share them.

On top of it, avoiding contacts, wearing masks, etc... also have limited opportunities to catch other diseases,  I.e. regular flu contagion is very low compared to previous years. Less mobility also reduced accidents, etc...

Not so many years, 2020 mortality statistics by cause will be published by the CDC end of 2021/begin of 2022.

Edited March 10, 2021 by candide

[Tug]

On 3/7/2021 at 10:45 PM, Thingamabob said:

Total rubbish. Many countries have, sadly, proportionately the same amount of alleged covid deaths. Are all their presidents/prime minister's to be held entirely responsible for those deaths ?  

I beg to differ and sir 500,000 dead as an American I take that quite seriously I’m going to stop there because I don’t want to break the rules and get a suspension........oh and the bill passed President Biden will sign off on it Friday at last something for the working folk not the rich

Edited March 10, 2021 by Tug

[impulse]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Not so many years, 2020 mortality statistics by cause will be published by the CDC end of 2021/begin of 2022.

The fatality numbers will come out in 2021, but they'll be fodder for decades of research papers and doctoral dissertations to figure out what they mean.  Comparing outcomes based on gender, ethnicity, location, obesity, financials, and a hundred other factors.  And comparing the results of the different shutdown mandates from the various states.  And whether opening up earlier and/or sending kids back to school had a favorable or unfavorable impact.

Getting back to comparing the USA to other countries, I'm not convinced we know enough to say whether the USA handled the outbreak better or worse.  Partly because of the difference in the way the numbers have been collected and reported (or not) by the various countries, and partly because of all the other factors besides mask mandates and lockdowns- things like health care systems, obesity (which seems to have an impact on mortality rates) and culture.

[placeholder]

 

What the data say about asymptomatic COVID infections

How many people don’t experience any symptoms after becoming infected with SARS-CoV-2? And what is their role in spreading COVID-19? These have been key questions since the beginning of the pandemic.Now, evidence suggests that about one in five infected people will experience no symptoms, and they will transmit the virus to significantly fewer people than someone with symptoms. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03141-3

Edited March 12, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[donnacha]

I can speak for everyone heavily invested in Bitcoin when I say that Biden is doing a terrific job and I pray that he will not hesitate to print trillions more dollars throughout the rest of his administration.

The alarm today among businesses and corporations holding dollars was the boost Bitcoin needed to bring it back up to the levels of the all-time highs it hit around the end of last month. This consolidates Bitcoin's credibility and makes the corporations and funds who shifted into Bitcoin last month, as a hedge against dollar debasement, look like geniuses. That will be a tipping point for many more to convert a portion of their dollar holdings into Bitcoin. I hold tightly to my prediction that Bitcoin will hit 200k before the end of this unique year.

From a human perspective, what America is doing is also good for, and generous to, the world. By cashing in the credibility of the dollar for temporary political gain, it gives other major currencies the chance to become the default currency. We needed competition in this area but no one dared hope that the US would step aside like this.

It also takes a lot of pressure off the EU who had seriously messed up their vaccination programme by telling individual countries to not make their own orders and, then, failing to make any orders of their own for three months. The economic carnage of this unprecedented bureaucratic FUBAR was threatening to bring down the European Central Bank, but now the Euro suddenly looks like a viable replacement for the dollar as world currency. 

Of course, it does mean tough times ahead for any retirees in Thailand on fixed incomes denominated in dollars. Again, though, this is a generous act on the part of the American government that will allow expats in Thailand from other countries to snap up bargains as a certain portion of American retirees are forced to sell up and leave.

Overall, the end result is mostly positive, and I am more impressed with Biden (or whoever is actually making the decisions) than I thought I would be. As long as he is willing to keep debasing the dollar, he will have our fervent support.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by donnacha

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

I can speak for everyone heavily invested in Bitcoin when I say that Biden is doing a terrific job and I pray that he will not hesitate to print trillions more dollars throughout the rest of his administration.

The alarm today among businesses and corporations holding dollars was the boost Bitcoin needed to bring it back up to the levels of the all-time highs it hit around the end of last month. This consolidates Bitcoin's credibility and makes the corporations and funds who shifted into Bitcoin last month, as a hedge against dollar debasement, look like geniuses. That will be a tipping point for many more to convert a portion of their dollar holdings into Bitcoin. I hold tightly to my prediction that Bitcoin will hit 200k before the end of this unique year.

From a human perspective, what America is doing is also good for, and generous to, the world. By cashing in the credibility of the dollar for temporary political gain, it gives other major currencies the chance to become the default currency. We needed competition in this area but no one dared hope that the US would step aside like this.

It also takes a lot of pressure off the EU who had seriously messed up their vaccination programme by telling individual countries to not make their own orders and, then, failing to make any orders of their own for three months. The economic carnage of this unprecedented bureaucratic FUBAR was threatening to bring down the European Central Bank, but now the Euro suddenly looks like a viable replacement for the dollar as world currency. 

Of course, it does mean tough times ahead for any retirees in Thailand on fixed incomes denominated in dollars. Again, though, this is a generous act on the part of the American government that will allow expats in Thailand from other countries to snap up bargains as a certain portion of American retirees are forced to sell up and leave.

Overall, the end result is mostly positive, and I am more impressed with Biden (or whoever is actually making the decisions) than I thought I would be. As long as he is willing to keep debasing the dollar, he will have our fervent support.

 

To add to your conversation, USD depreciation started way back to 2011 with intermitten spike like the last appreciation in March 2020. Trump should also take some credit for the sharp depreciation since then and he also take a bow for the historical high fiscal deficits that drove dollar weakness. Just to conclude that most developed countries are in the same covid rut and are printing money to save their economies. It is more than printing money that is the driver for dollar weakness. 

[donnacha]

33 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

It is more than printing money that is the driver for dollar weakness. 

Sure but, from my perspective, as someone with a vested interest in the collapse of the dollar, the money printing is a really useful culmination of all the other factors. This is beyond politics. What we are seeing in so many areas - for example, online commerce, working from home, the use of video conferencing instead of air travel - is a massive acceleration of beneficial trends that were already happening.

When all is said and done, despite the hundreds of trillions of dollars of damage to the world economy, we will have leap-frogged ahead by a decade in areas of key importance. One of those will be the widening of the selection of major currencies, with the reliance on a single currency (the US dollar) relegated to the past. Ultimately, that is even healthy for the US economy, because it will no longer be able to export inflation, and that will force future governments - both Democrat and Republican - to become far leaner.

It is also ideal timing for Bitcoin because, after a decade of existence, it was not entirely clear, despite the ingenious design, what Bitcoin was for. Now, both corporations and regular Americans will be able to use it to insulate their savings during a period of turbulent inflation. That will educate and prepare public opinion to insist that the next version of the dollar is designed to be more solid, robust, and limited in supply.

The next few years will be rough but, medium to long-term, I am optimistic. I believe the US has an excellent chance of remaining relevant throughout the coming century.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by donnacha

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, impulse said:

The fatality numbers will come out in 2021, but they'll be fodder for decades of research papers and doctoral dissertations to figure out what they mean.  Comparing outcomes based on gender, ethnicity, location, obesity, financials, and a hundred other factors.  And comparing the results of the different shutdown mandates from the various states.  And whether opening up earlier and/or sending kids back to school had a favorable or unfavorable impact.

Getting back to comparing the USA to other countries, I'm not convinced we know enough to say whether the USA handled the outbreak better or worse.  Partly because of the difference in the way the numbers have been collected and reported (or not) by the various countries, and partly because of all the other factors besides mask mandates and lockdowns- things like health care systems, obesity (which seems to have an impact on mortality rates) and culture.

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

[OneMoreFarang]

I am sure with the catastrophic mishandling of Covid by that other guy many Americans absolutely need money even to survive.

But I wonder where all that money should come from. Will anybody finally tax all those dollar billionaires who don't know what to do with all their money? Or will the USA just continue to print money? Or do they have anywhere those money trees?

 

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, donnacha said:

I can speak for everyone heavily invested in Bitcoin when I say that Biden is doing a terrific job and I pray that he will not hesitate to print trillions more dollars throughout the rest of his administration.

The alarm today among businesses and corporations holding dollars was the boost Bitcoin needed to bring it back up to the levels of the all-time highs it hit around the end of last month. This consolidates Bitcoin's credibility and makes the corporations and funds who shifted into Bitcoin last month, as a hedge against dollar debasement, look like geniuses. That will be a tipping point for many more to convert a portion of their dollar holdings into Bitcoin. I hold tightly to my prediction that Bitcoin will hit 200k before the end of this unique year.

From a human perspective, what America is doing is also good for, and generous to, the world. By cashing in the credibility of the dollar for temporary political gain, it gives other major currencies the chance to become the default currency. We needed competition in this area but no one dared hope that the US would step aside like this.

It also takes a lot of pressure off the EU who had seriously messed up their vaccination programme by telling individual countries to not make their own orders and, then, failing to make any orders of their own for three months. The economic carnage of this unprecedented bureaucratic FUBAR was threatening to bring down the European Central Bank, but now the Euro suddenly looks like a viable replacement for the dollar as world currency. 

Of course, it does mean tough times ahead for any retirees in Thailand on fixed incomes denominated in dollars. Again, though, this is a generous act on the part of the American government that will allow expats in Thailand from other countries to snap up bargains as a certain portion of American retirees are forced to sell up and leave.

Overall, the end result is mostly positive, and I am more impressed with Biden (or whoever is actually making the decisions) than I thought I would be. As long as he is willing to keep debasing the dollar, he will have our fervent support.

 

I remember similar predictions when Obama was President. You seem to mistake similar current fears for future facts. Unless you got a crystal ball, you've got nothing.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, donnacha said:

Sure but, from my perspective, as someone with a vested interest in the collapse of the dollar, the money printing is a really useful culmination of all the other factors. This is beyond politics. What we are seeing in so many areas - for example, online commerce, working from home, the use of video conferencing instead of air travel - is a massive acceleration of beneficial trends that were already happening.

When all is said and done, despite the hundreds of trillions of dollars of damage to the world economy, we will have leap-frogged ahead by a decade in areas of key importance. One of those will be the widening of the selection of major currencies, with the reliance on a single currency (the US dollar) relegated to the past. Ultimately, that is even healthy for the US economy, because it will no longer be able to export inflation, and that will force future governments - both Democrat and Republican - to become far leaner.

It is also ideal timing for Bitcoin because, after a decade of existence, it was not entirely clear, despite the ingenious design, what Bitcoin was for. Now, both corporations and regular Americans will be able to use it to insulate their savings during a period of turbulent inflation. That will educate and prepare public opinion to insist that the next version of the dollar is designed to be more solid, robust, and limited in supply.

The next few years will be rough but, medium to long-term, I am optimistic. I believe the US has an excellent chance of remaining relevant throughout the coming century.

 

More crystalballism.

[impulse]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

False

What the data say about asymptomatic COVID infections

How many people don’t experience any symptoms after becoming infected with SARS-CoV-2? And what is their role in spreading COVID-19? These have been key questions since the beginning of the pandemic.Now, evidence suggests that about one in five infected people will experience no symptoms, and they will transmit the virus to significantly fewer people than someone with symptoms. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03141-3

 I used the wrong term, asymptomatic.  What I should have used is "not serious enough to require medical intervention", which is a mouthful.

The difference being that, in the USA, if you tested positive, you were probably told to stay at home and get plenty of rest.  In (for example) Thailand, if you tested positive, you were whisked off to a quarantine facility.

If a person started showing some flu symptoms, do you figure they were more likely to happily get tested in the USA or in Thailand? 

And that doesn't even address the motivations of the gub'ments whether they wanted to show a huge caseload, or a minimal caseload.  In tourism driven Thailand, vs the USA in an election year?

[placeholder]

13 hours ago, impulse said:

The fatality numbers will come out in 2021, but they'll be fodder for decades of research papers and doctoral dissertations to figure out what they mean.  Comparing outcomes based on gender, ethnicity, location, obesity, financials, and a hundred other factors.  And comparing the results of the different shutdown mandates from the various states.  And whether opening up earlier and/or sending kids back to school had a favorable or unfavorable impact.

Getting back to comparing the USA to other countries, I'm not convinced we know enough to say whether the USA handled the outbreak better or worse.  Partly because of the difference in the way the numbers have been collected and reported (or not) by the various countries, and partly because of all the other factors besides mask mandates and lockdowns- things like health care systems, obesity (which seems to have an impact on mortality rates) and culture.

 

This is just a word salad where you try to invoke anything and everything to obfuscate and deflect from where the blame really belongs.

In fact, it's very well understood what works:

Seattle’s Virus Success Shows What Could Have Been
The Seattle area once had more coronavirus deaths than anywhere else in the United States. A year later, the region’s deaths per capita are lower than any other large metropolitan area.

 If the rest of the United States had kept pace with Seattle, the nation could have avoided more than 300,000 coronavirus deaths.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/11/us/coronavirus-seattle-success.html

Instead, the USA got this:

Four ways Trump has meddled in pandemic science — and why it matters
How US President Donald Trump and his administration have silenced scientists, meddled in their reports and ignored their advice.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03035-4

Two decades of pandemic war games failed to account for Donald Trump
The scenarios foresaw leaky travel bans, a scramble for vaccines and disputes between state and federal leaders, but none could anticipate the current levels of dysfunction in the United States.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02277-6

[impulse]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

This is just a word salad where you try to invoke anything and everything to obfuscate and deflect from where the blame really belongs.

In fact, it's very well understood what works:

 

Except that the federal government didn’t dictate the response.  That was done on the state, county and municipal level.  Here in Texas, that means that, on my way to the nearest town, I drove through an area where I technically needed a reason to be on the road, through to another where the beaches were open to the public, onto another where the beaches were closed.  And I went into and out of “mask required” zones.  All within 20 miles.

Some school districts have been open for months, while others are still closed.  Some areas shut down sooner and had tighter restrictions, others shut down later and still others had very lax restrictions.  Some closed the hospitals to all but Covid patients and dire emergencies, others kept their doors open for routine care.

You can go ahead and blame the [Trump] and declare case closed.  But I’d really like after action comparisons of the different responses to see which ones worked and which ones only restricted our freedoms with no benefits.  And which ones were tragically wrong.  It'll be years before those results are in.  Regardless of the narratives put out by the various parties without deep diving the data.

Edited March 12, 2021 by onthedarkside
name calling reference removed

[impulse]

 

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/American Rescue Plan Act SENATE.pdf

It's not the 600+ pages.  It's that each page references volumes and volumes of other documents for definitions and clarification.

So far, the Repubs are saying it's about 9% Covid related.  And while they're being called out as racist bigots, nobody seems to be disagreeing with that number.

Edited March 12, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Except that the federal government didn’t dictate the response.  That was done on the state, county and municipal level.  Here in Texas, that means that, on my way to the nearest town, I drove through an area where I technically needed a reason to be on the road, through to another where the beaches were open to the public, onto another where the beaches were closed.  And I went into and out of “mask required” zones.  All within 20 miles.

Some school districts have been open for months, while others are still closed.  Some areas shut down sooner and had tighter restrictions, others shut down later and still others had very lax restrictions.  Some closed the hospitals to all but Covid patients and dire emergencies, others kept their doors open for routine care.

You can go ahead and blame the Big Bad Orange Man and declare case closed.  But I’d really like after action comparisons of the different responses to see which ones worked and which ones only restricted our freedoms with no benefits.  And which ones were tragically wrong.  It'll be years before those results are in.  Regardless of the narratives put out by the various parties without deep diving the data.

Such nonsense. There already has been plenty of deep diving into the data. Tons of research out there at this point. And the example of Seattle shows what can be done. If its strict approach had been followed, there would have been 300,000 less deaths!

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

 

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/American Rescue Plan Act SENATE.pdf

It's not the 600+ pages.  It's that each page references volumes and volumes of other documents for definitions and clarification.

So far, the Repubs are saying it's about 9% Covid related.  And while they're being called out as racist bigots, nobody seems to be disagreeing with that number.

Not even the fantasists on the Walll St. Journal's editorial board are claiming 9%. Where did you come up with that bizarre figure?

And have you noticed how virtually none of that money is in the form of tax breaks or subsidies to the rich and powerful? Instead, it's directed to benefit the poor, working,  and middle classes. This is what genuine and decent populism looks like.

 

[Credo]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Except that the federal government didn’t dictate the response.  That was done on the state, county and municipal level.  Here in Texas, that means that, on my way to the nearest town, I drove through an area where I technically needed a reason to be on the road, through to another where the beaches were open to the public, onto another where the beaches were closed.  And I went into and out of “mask required” zones.  All within 20 miles.

Some school districts have been open for months, while others are still closed.  Some areas shut down sooner and had tighter restrictions, others shut down later and still others had very lax restrictions.  Some closed the hospitals to all but Covid patients and dire emergencies, others kept their doors open for routine care.

You can go ahead and blame the Big Bad Orange Man and declare case closed.  But I’d really like after action comparisons of the different responses to see which ones worked and which ones only restricted our freedoms with no benefits.  And which ones were tragically wrong.  It'll be years before those results are in.  Regardless of the narratives put out by the various parties without deep diving the data.

I, for one, will continue to blame Trump.   The difference between his 'reign of terror' and the current administration is night and day.    

We have leadership that is pointed in one direction and that is dealing with the virus and all the surrounding problems it has caused.  We have vaccines being produced and distributed at lightening speed.   And those vaccines are getting into people's arms.  If the states need help and guidance they get it.   

As far as what works and what doesn't, that's going to take time.  We know that masks work, but we don't exactly know how well, we don't know which ones are best (against this particular virus), whether two really are better.  We know that social distancing works, but is 6 feet enough?   Maybe 9 feet inside, maybe 4 feet outside.   

We do know it is transmitted from person-to-person, so keeping people apart does work, thus lockdowns work, but for how long and how stringent.   

But we are fighting a virus now rather than lies and denial.

 

[meechai]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:11 PM, Tug said:

The facts don’t bear you out the truth be told donald John trump is largely responsible for the deaths of over 500,000 Americans that sir is more dead than all wars combined from 1900 till now most folks see that he is also destroying the once proud Republican Party 

So are all world leaders responsible for all the covid deaths in your world or just the right wing of your X-patrioted country?

Edited March 12, 2021 by meechai

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, meechai said:

So are all world leaders responsible for all the covid deaths in your world or just the right wing of your X-patriot country?

Despite your attempt to deflect blame, it's not a case of all or nothing. There would have been a lot fewer deaths had Trump not acted so irresponsibly in so many ways.

[candide]

4 hours ago, meechai said:

So are all world leaders responsible for all the covid deaths in your world or just the right wing of your X-patrioted country?

There are other leaders who also acted irresponsibly, despite the fact that their country has been contaminated later than other comparable countries, I.e. Boris Johnson. They should be blamed too.

Anyway, the fact that a few others also behaved inappropriately doesn't clear him of any responsibility.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

So far, the Repubs are saying it's about 9% Covid related.  And while they're being called out as racist bigots, nobody seems to be disagreeing with that number.

Not surprisingly, it's pretty much a misleading claim, because the quoted percent figure only relates to directly virus-related spending, but NOT all the related spending such as stimulus payments, support for reopening schools, extending unemployment benefits, tax credits, etc. etc...  -- all aimed at supporting the recovery from the pandemic, as the Politifact article below explains:

Budd says 9% of stimulus targets COVID, the rest is 'not even' related

...

"In the first part of his statement, Budd accurately describes the proposed spending on efforts to combat the virus itself. 

However, he’s wrong to suggest the rest of the bill isn’t related to COVID-19 at all. He may disagree with how much the bill would spend on unemployment insurance and other financial relief efforts. But the bill does aim to address the financial cost of the pandemic.

His statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details. We rate it Half True."

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/01/ted-budd/budd-says-9-stimulus-targets-covid-rest-not-even-r/

[onthedarkside]

A post that made unsourced and unsubstantiated claims as to the contents of the coronavirus relief measure signed by President Biden has been removed, along with several replies.