Thai Visa agent legit?

[BritTim]

As with many services provided by agents, you are getting officially valid extensions of your permission to stay based on a fraudulent application by the agent. The immigration officials are (and you should be) aware that the extensions ought not to have been issued. However, the agent ensures the officials and you have plausible deniability. You are not personally engaging in illegal activity. Whether you participate mainly comes down to morality. Your actual risk is very low.

[tonray]

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

You are not personally engaging in illegal activity.

When you realize that you never actual did any volunteer activity might be a clue

[jackdd]

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

However, the agent ensures the officials and you have plausible deniability. You are not personally engaging in illegal activity.

The official has plausible deniability, the agent does as well, you don't.

I'm quite certain that if there should ever be a crackdown the IO will state something like this:

The applicant submitted fake documents, he didn't notice that they are fake. He doesn't know any other person being involved.

Even if you would challenge it, the agent will not be traceable. What they have is the extension application which was done in person by you and signed by you, showing that you did it, it's just logical to assume that you also submitted the documents.

Edited March 28, 2021 by jackdd

[Tanoshi]

11 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Show me one and not the rubbish post about fake stamps earlier.

I don't want many. One will do. You won't find ONE.

You clearly don't approve of agents and that's fine. 

Actually Jack, some years ago in Roi Et, an audit lead to an investigate lasting several weeks.

5 IO's were dismissed from service (not posted to inactive service).

The local agent was reprimanded and has never practiced since.

At least 4 local foreigners (to my knowledge) were arrested, detained in IDC, fined by a Court, then deported and banned for life.

 

Stamps were genuine, but the applications for extensions based on retirement were not.

I guess the IO's being greedy and not paying the proceeds up the chain of command was their downfall.

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Actually Jack, some years ago in Roi Et, an audit lead to an investigate lasting several weeks.

5 IO's were dismissed from service (not posted to inactive service).

The local agent was reprimanded and has never practiced since.

At least 4 local foreigners (to my knowledge) were arrested, detained in IDC, fined by a Court, then deported and banned for life.

 

Stamps were genuine, but the applications for extensions based on retirement were not.

I guess the IO's being greedy and not paying the proceeds up the chain of command was their downfall.

Very interesting. I wonder if there was a juicy story behind what occured. Also genuine stamps! Someone was breaking team rules? I can't find any references to this with my mate google, however that doesn't mean much.

Any ideas @ThaiVisaCentre

Edited March 28, 2021 by DrJack54

[chipkimberimd]

I might be wrong about this, but as I understand it, the head of any immigration office has broad leeway in waiving requirements. As in the length of seasoning of money in the bank, etc.

 

Maybe some might say it's morally wrong but illegal I don't know.

 

The not actually volunteering part seems suspect, but as in an extension based on retirement, suppose that the cash in bank requirement is just waived by the senior official?

 

Again I have no experience in doing this, just throwing it out there and I accept I could be totally incorrect. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by chipkimberimd

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, chipkimberimd said:

I might be wrong about this but as I understand it, the head of any immigration office has broad leeway in waiving requirements. As in the length of seasoning of money in the bank, etc.

That is misinformation often stated. Not every office has the authority.

This what the immigration order for extensions of stay states.

"5. In the case where an alien applicant does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein or in other cases not specified in this Order but a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector is of the opinion that the alien has legitimate reason for staying in the Kingdom of Thailand, the application shall be forwarded to the Commander of the Royal Thai Police or an authorized competent officer for further consideration of the alien's application."

[Bob4u]

What is the ballpark going rate to change a tourist visa into a Non O retirement ?

[UncleMhee]

28 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is misinformation often stated. Not every office has the authority.

This what the immigration order for extensions of stay states.

"5. In the case where an alien applicant does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein or in other cases not specified in this Order but a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector is of the opinion that the alien has legitimate reason for staying in the Kingdom of Thailand, the application shall be forwarded to the Commander of the Royal Thai Police or an authorized competent officer for further consideration of the alien's application."

This indicates to me that an agent prepared application, with truthful verifiable information being considered by those senior IO's is a legal process; irrespective of where the monies paid to the agent eventually goes. In the first instance it is the agent that argues the case on your behalf. In the second, it's ultimately up to the IO's concerned to say yay or nay; depending on the merit visible to them in the application concerning your circumstances.

 

Seems pretty legit to me....... As for morality; pffft! That's an individual thing in any given particular circumstance.

Edited March 28, 2021 by UncleMhee

[UncleMhee]

11 minutes ago, Bob4u said:

What is the ballpark going rate to change a tourist visa into a Non O retirement ?

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1202564-thaivisa-launches-new-visa-service-for-expats-in-thailand/

[Tanoshi]

23 minutes ago, Bob4u said:

What is the ballpark going rate to change a tourist visa into a Non O retirement ?

Yourself, 2,000 baht if you have proof of sufficient finances.

[Bob4u]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Yourself, 2,000 baht if you have proof of sufficient finances.

 

Is it worth the headache and dealing with immigration if you can pay?

[jackdd]

22 minutes ago, UncleMhee said:

This indicates to me that an agent prepared application, with truthful verifiable information being considered by those senior IO's is a legal process; irrespective of where the monies paid to the agent eventually goes. In the first instance it is the agent that argues the case on your behalf. In the second, it's ultimately up to the IO's concerned to say yay or nay; depending on the merit visible to them in the application concerning your circumstances.

 

Seems pretty legit to me....... As for morality; pffft! That's an individual thing in any given particular circumstance.

You assume that just because it's theoretically possible for the Commander of the Royal Thai Police to sign off an application which doesn't fulfill the requirements, that's what actually happens.

If it actually happened on such a level, these services were provided in every province and not only in some.

[Tanoshi]

23 minutes ago, UncleMhee said:

This indicates to me that an agent prepared application, with truthful verifiable information being considered by those senior IO's is a legal process; irrespective of where the monies paid to the agent eventually goes.

There are those who use agents for extensions when having verifiable documents, in which case the agents fees are considerably less (8,000) and it doesn't require the rank of Inspector or above to grant the extension.

 

Then there are those who cannot supply verifiable documents, which is why the agents fees are much higher. Very few offices have an officer with the rank of 'Inspector', or above.

You seriously think if I apply for an extension based on retirement with 700K in a Thai bank, with 1,900 baht in hand, my IO are going to send it to the regional office for an Inspector or above to 'consider' my application.

[UncleMhee]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

You assume that just because it's theoretically possible for the Commander of the Royal Thai Police to sign off an application which doesn't fulfill the requirements, that's what actually happens.

If it actually happened on such a level, these services were provided in every province and not only in some.

I assume nothing.....the post I was replying to indicated in the police order, what I said was logistically possible. No theory involved!! 

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, Bob4u said:

 

Is it worth the headache and dealing with immigration if you can pay?

What headache!

If you have the financials and know what documents are required it's not a headache.

You may come across the odd A-hole, but you come across them in every day life.

[UncleMhee]

5 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You seriously think if I apply for an extension based on retirement with 700K in a Thai bank, with 1,900 baht in hand, my IO are going to send it to the regional office for an Inspector or above to 'consider' my application.

Not at all.....though going from many posts here on TVF they may offer to overlook it for a fee, or advise you to go see an agent 

[jackdd]

40 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Very few offices have an officer with the rank of 'Inspector', or above.

That's wrong, every immigration office has many of them.

Edited March 28, 2021 by jackdd

[Peterw42]

27 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You assume that just because it's theoretically possible for the Commander of the Royal Thai Police to sign off an application which doesn't fulfill the requirements, that's what actually happens.

If it actually happened on such a level, these services were provided in every province and not only in some.

 

If you read the order, its the commander "or" an authorized competent officer. I have been told by two agents (westerners) that the boss of each immigration office is "an authorized competent officer."

I think you would find the service doesn't exist outside of the major expat locations simply because there are not many expats.

I had first hand experience of the boss approving, in samut sakon immigration, I had stuffed up my 800k in the bank and was leaving the country soon. I was begging the IO to approve etc. She said "I cant approve it without the 800k but the boss can". I watched as my application was taken into the bosses office and stamped/signed by the boss as approved. Written on the application was something like "approved non-comply"

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That is misinformation often stated. Not every office has the authority.

This what the immigration order for extensions of stay states.

"5. In the case where an alien applicant does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein or in other cases not specified in this Order but a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector is of the opinion that the alien has legitimate reason for staying in the Kingdom of Thailand, the application shall be forwarded to the Commander of the Royal Thai Police or an authorized competent officer for further consideration of the alien's application."

I have been told by two agents that the boss of every immigration office is "an authorised competent officer" as mentioned in the order.

I had a boss of an immigration office approve an extension where I had stuffed up the 800k.

A big stamp on the paperwork that translated to something like 'approved without compliance" and signed by the boss.

 

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I have been told by two agents that the boss of every immigration office is "an authorised competent officer" as mentioned in the order.

I had a boss of an immigration office approve an extension where I had stuffed up the 800k.

A big stamp on the paperwork that translated to something like 'approved without compliance" and signed by the boss.

 

But they could not approve a extension with no funds at all. I think in most cases they are approved without seeing the original bank book or bank letter that is attached to the application. Same for other types of extensions that require supporting documents.

In your case if you had the money but it was not in the bank long enough for example they could sign off on it.

[BritTim]

5 hours ago, jackdd said:

The applicant submitted fake documents, he didn't notice that they are fake. He doesn't know any other person being involved.

 

The documents are not fake. As with the stamps in the passport, palms are being greased to acquire valid documents from those empowered to issue them. The officials like the fact that the bribes (from the agent allotted as the major portion of the agent fee you pay) come through an intermediary. This is what provides the plausible deniability. You have a receipt that showed you paid an agent to arrange "what you believed" (ha-ha) was a legal extension. The bribes to immigration, banks and whoever else is involved, paid by the agent are untraceable.

[chuang]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Well as I said before the pertinent question is not whether it is is legit (of course it isn't), but can he get caught and punished.

As long as the visa is obtained from the IB by any way it is legit...whether the IO is legit or no is another matter..

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, chuang said:

As long as the visa is obtained from the IB by any way it is legit...whether the IO is legit or no is another matter..

OK of course I agree the stamps would be legit but obtaining via corruption and fraud is not legit. Even if it may be a massively remote risk expats intentionally participating in that have legal exposure if there is a crackdown.

 

Asserting that there has never been such a crackdown even if that is true doesn't change the exposure that expats participating in that still have.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Jingthing

[Peterw42]

45 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

But they could not approve a extension with no funds at all. I think in most cases they are approved without seeing the original bank book or bank letter that is attached to the application. Same for other types of extensions that require supporting documents.

In your case if you had the money but it was not in the bank long enough for example they could sign off on it.

Using your explanation, that means the boss can sign off on the money in the bank being 59 days short of a 60 day requirement (ie: deposited yesterday). 

There cant be degrees of non-compliance the boss can/cannot sign off on. Funds for only 1 day is as much a non-compliance as funds for 59 days, 0 baht is as much a non-compliance as 799K baht.

If the boss can only sign off to certain non-compliance, what is the day or money amount he is authorised for ?

 

If you get a chance, call the guys at a couple of the big Pattaya agents (key, speedy etc), they are foreigners and easy to get on the phone. Their standard explanation is , the boss is authorised.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Peterw42

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Using your explanation, that means the boss can sign off on the money in the bank being 59 days short of a 60 day requirement (ie: deposited yesterday). 

I did not intend to say that. I had in mind being a few days less than 2 months.

I think the agents just saying something to make you feel better about they do for you.

[Jingthing]

To add that for people participating in corruption and fraud to buy favors at immigration that feel the small risk of consequence is acceptable to them I understand very well. I am not a Saint at all. If desperate I would take those odds too. But please be clear that you are intentionally participating in corruption and fraud. Don't try to sugar coat with lame rationalizations. Own what you're doing. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Jingthing

[Eindhoven]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

To add that for people participating in corruption and fraud to buy favors at immigration that feel the small risk of consequence is acceptable to them I understand very well. I am not a Saint at all. If desperate I would take those odds too. But please be clear that you are internationally participating in corruption and fraud. Don't try to sugar coat with lame rationalizations. Own what you're doing. 

 

How many times are you going to post the same thing? 

Internationally participating? Seems you are salivating at the prospect of posting your apparently ignorant opinion.

 

So what do you suggest? That people rush back to their countries in order to catch COVID if they don't have seasoned funds at the time of applying? Or that they continually crushed themselves into Immigration offices during the times of prevalent COVID-19 transmissions in order to satisfy your lust for moral outrage? Utterly disgusting.

 

Clearly leeway was put into place for people to regularise their status during these difficult times.

 

We don't need your multiple post holier than thou opinions here. You said it once, let that be enough.

 

 

[The Fugitive]

Agree, go for it. However, for me, 38,000 baht is a lot. You could try playing 'one off against the other'. Take a Thai with you and explain to the Immigration Officer that you have had this offer of 35,000 baht (sic), but would prefer to deal with yourselves directly. Ask what the IO can do for you? In my experience the IO's are happy to cut out the Visa Agents and make more money for themselves. Up to you! 

[fishtank]

16 minutes ago, Eindhoven said:

 

How many times are you going to post the same thing? 

Internationally participating? Seems you are salivating at the prospect of posting your apparently ignorant opinion.

 

So what do you suggest? That people rush back to their countries in order to catch COVID if they don't have seasoned funds at the time of applying? Or that they continually crushed themselves into Immigration offices during the times of prevalent COVID-19 transmissions in order to satisfy your lust for moral outrage? Utterly disgusting.

 

Clearly leeway was put into place for people to regularise their status during these difficult times.

 

We don't need your multiple post holier than thou opinions here. You said it once, let that be enough.

 

 

How about applying for something you actually legally qualify for instead of ducking and diving trying to circumvent very reasonable immigration rules.

Thus making it tougher for those of us that actually stay within the regulations.

Edited March 28, 2021 by fishtank