Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Mattd]

24 minutes ago, greenchair said:

What is the difference between naturalisation and citizenship? 

Naturalisation is the process whereby a foreigner becomes a citizen of a country by means other than birth right.

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, Mattd said:

Naturalisation is the process whereby a foreigner becomes a citizen of a country by means other than birth right.

So it's citizenship then 

[Naam]

8 hours ago, greenchair said:

So it's citizenship then 

same same, not different.

[Big Guns]

Naturalisation is the process or route to citizenship and citizenship is the fact that an individual is a citizen of a particular country.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Big Guns said:

Naturalisation is the process or route to citizenship and citizenship is the fact that an individual is a citizen of a particular country.

But I saw in another post that you can get naturalisation if you did a degree in Thailand. That's according to ubonjoe. 

But Arkady says that you must be married or have pr. So, thoughts please 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, greenchair said:

But I saw in another post that you can get naturalisation if you did a degree in Thailand. That's according to ubonjoe. 

But Arkady says that you must be married or have pr. So, thoughts please 

This is stated in the guidelines for naturalization. Not sure if they accept the applications though.

Quote

3.2 Applicants with direct personal ties with Thailand, such as those married to a Thai citizen, those with children who are Thai citizens, or those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization

 

[Mattd]

36 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

This is stated in the guidelines for naturalization. Not sure if they accept the applications though.

I read this such that a person applying for citizenship would still have to meet all the criteria to apply, i.e. be a PR or married to a Thai, this clause just seems to state that the financial requirements are less than those not married or with children / degree from Thailand?

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Mattd said:

I read this such that a person applying for citizenship would still have to meet all the criteria to apply, i.e. be a PR or married to a Thai, this clause just seems to state that the financial requirements are less than those not married or with children / degree from Thailand?

It is a or statement which means either one. Same financial proof as marriage.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, Big Guns said:

Naturalisation is the process or route to citizenship and citizenship is the fact that an individual is a citizen of a particular country.

 

Correct but the Thai law makes a distinction between 'naturalisation' and 'adopting the citizenship of one's husband', a distinction which I think used to exist in many other countries by necessity because so many countries automatically revoked the citizenship of women who married aliens.  But most have now abolished the more or less automatic route to citizenship for wives of their nationals, which still exists in Thai law, and replaced it with an easier and gender neutral route to naturalisation for spouses of citizens.  For example the UK did this through the 1981 Nationality Act.

[Arkady]

"3.2 Applicants with direct personal ties with Thailand, such as those married to a Thai citizen, those with children who are Thai citizens, or those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization."

 

For clarification, this is merely a relaxation of the minimum salary from B80,000 to B40,000 for those with direct personal ties to Thailand. It does not mean that those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand but do not have PR or a Thai spouse are eligible to apply for citizenship.  For this to be the case, it would have to be specified in the Nationality Act, which it is not.  I think this was originally drafted before the 2008 amendments allowing husbands of Thai nationals to apply without PR.  If you read in the context of the Act prior to those amendments, there is no room for ambiguity.

 

The guidelines actually provide for a lot of other cases for reduction of the minimum salary to even less than B40,000 but, since these only apply to minorities, other stateless people born in Thailand or their spouses I did not bother to include them when I translated the guidelines from which I believe this was quoted. If anyone is a minority or other stateless person born in Thailand or a spouse of one, they should refer to the original guidelines in Thai to be found on SB's website.  If I recall correctly the minimum salary for them is B15,000.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, Arkady said:

For clarification, this is merely a relaxation of the minimum salary from B80,000 to B40,000 for those with direct personal ties to Thailand. It does not mean that those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand but do not have PR or a Thai spouse are eligible to apply for citizenship. 

If that is what it means it could certainly of been written differently.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

If that is what it means it could certainly of been written differently.

I think I understand it the way you understand it 

 

But what law is it from. 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

I think I understand it the way you understand it 

 

But what law is it from. 

It is not from the Nationality Act or any other law. It is from a document entitled "Guidelines (or conditions) for the exercise of the minister's discretion in respect of applications for Thai nationality under Sections 9, 10,11 and 12 of the 1965 Nationality Act, amended in 2008."  The document was posted on SB's website from 2012 to 2014 or thereabouts when they provided extremely detailed information on application for Thai nationality.  Nowadays they only have very basic information on the website with a scrappy English translation of the list of documents required that misses out the all important declaration of intent.  The document in Thai only is attached.  These salary guidelines seem to be still in force, since those with Thai  wives are still only required to have salaries of B40,000 a month, while those without Thai wives still need B80,000.

 

 The relevant passage appears with identical wording in "Section  ข Applications under Section 10 or the Nationality Act" (applicants who have 5 years' residence in the Kingdom interpreted as PR) and "Section ค Applications under Section 11 of the Nationality Act" (applicants who have Thai wives etc).  In fact the passage quoted from my translation amalgamates Sections 3.2 and 3.2.1. of these guidelines for simplicity's sake.  

 

Given the context that these are guidelines for minimum salaries are under the headings, "Applications under Sections 10 and 11 of the Nationality Act", it should be pretty obvious that applicants need to fulfill the requirements of at least one of those sections of the Act before taking into consideration the conditions for use of the minister's discretion regarding minimum salaries in respect of applications under those sections.  The minister's discretion is extensive under the Act but it can only cover interpretation of the Act (in a very limited way) and the setting of conditions that are not covered in the Act, which is the purpose of these guidelines. In another set of ministerial guidelines it is set out that "5 years' residence in the Kingdom" means 5 years residence after obtaining an alien book and a residence book, i.e. as a PR.  There is nothing in the attached guidelines that contradicts this and current interpretation is the same, based on recent enquiries by potential applicants at SB.  

 

Naturally the only way to be absolutely certain is to try to apply, or at least enquire at SB. However, I would rate the chances of SB accepting an application from someone who doesn't fulfill the conditions of Sections 10 or 11 of the Act but either has a Thai child but no spouse or has a Thai degree at zero, unless they have a personal connection with the minister.     

 

Conditions for Interior Minister's Discretion Under Sections 9,10, 11 and 12 of the Nationality Act TH.pdf

[sathuluv]

Quick update on my case:

Since, the MoI interview in Lumluka last year was waiting for an update.
Yesterday received a message from SB police officer mentioning that my application is approved by PM. Next week Thursday need to go to SB office for the oath.
I guess there are still few steps to go but hoping by 2018 will have this completed.


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[Arkady]

32 minutes ago, sathuluv said:

Quick update on my case:

Since, the MoI interview in Lumluka last year was waiting for an update.
Yesterday received a message from SB police officer mentioning that my application is approved by PM. Next week Thursday need to go to SB office for the oath.
I guess there are still few steps to go but hoping by 2018 will have this completed.
 

 

Congratulations on your approval. Must have been the interior minister, as he is the one who has discretion to approve under the Nationality Act, not the prime minister.

[sathuluv]

 
Congratulations on your approval. Must have been the interior minister, as he is the one who has discretion to approve under the Nationality Act, not the prime minister.

Thanks Arkady. I read from this letter which says “Nayok Ratamontri”.


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[skippybangkok]

Quick update on my case:

Since, the MoI interview in Lumluka last year was waiting for an update.
Yesterday received a message from SB police officer mentioning that my application is approved by PM. Next week Thursday need to go to SB office for the oath.
I guess there are still few steps to go but hoping by 2018 will have this completed.


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Congrats !


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[GabbaGabbaHey]

5 hours ago, sathuluv said:

Since, the MoI interview in Lumluka last year was waiting for an update.
Yesterday received a message from SB police officer mentioning that my application is approved by PM. Next week Thursday need to go to SB office for the oath.
I guess there are still few steps to go but hoping by 2018 will have this completed.

Contratulations! So how long was it between the MOI interview and the approval?

Edited January 20, 2018 by GabbaGabbaHey

[greenchair]

8 hours ago, sathuluv said:

Quick update on my case:

Since, the MoI interview in Lumluka last year was waiting for an update.
Yesterday received a message from SB police officer mentioning that my application is approved by PM. Next week Thursday need to go to SB office for the oath.
I guess there are still few steps to go but hoping by 2018 will have this completed.


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A few more steps. ??

That's hilarious. 

Just wait until you start the process to get that ID card. 

Your nightmare has not begun. 

???

[Big Guns]

It's probably a few months until RG & a couple of months after for the oath. The stress or lack of it for the ID cars depends on the Kate u used in BKK. My opinion based on my experience for married bloke & got it last October.

[Arkady]

10 hours ago, sathuluv said:

 

Thanks Arkady. I read from this letter which says “Nayok Ratamontri”.


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You are right. It is the PM.  It may be a courtesy for the PM to sign in referring your application to HMK for countersignature. The interior minister must have signed something prior to this internally though, since it is his discretion under the Act.  Anyway it doesn't matter. The main thing is you have ministerial approval and can now move on to the final stages.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

A few more steps. ??

That's hilarious. 

Just wait until you start the process to get that ID card. 

Your nightmare has not begun. 

???

 

Certainly some people have had a hard time in getting ID cards, including the OP, even to the extent, in some cases, of moving to another district just to get the ID card before moving back again.  But no extreme cases of that type have been reported recently.  In my case, it took all day and required a lot of patience was not too arduous.  You need to get a new tabien baan first and those people couldn't have been nicer to me.  The problems only emerged after lunch in the ID card section but it was really only because the person who knew the procedure was on holiday and they tried to make me make an appointment for the next week to save them trouble,  which I refused to do since I had made an appointment for that day and had already taken the day off work and brought my witnesses along.  I argued with a very sulky woman but after some time one of her colleagues came up and said she wasn't absolutely sure how to do but was willing to give it a try, if I could bear with her.  And she did manage to get through it, although it took the rest of the afternoon.  It was a Bangkok Khet that deals with quite a few new Thais and you would think there would be some training and a manual available.   It turned out that the tabien baan and ID departments, despite being separated only by a glass partition, didn't talk to each other.  So the appointment I had made with the tabien baan department, which I assumed covered the whole process, was not considered to be binding on them by the ID department.  It might be worth checking that both departments are available when you make your appointment but other Khets might handle this better.  

 

Anyway getting your new tabien baan and ID card is nothing to fear at all.  You feel like a million dollars when you walk out of there and get photographed holding your new ID card by your significant other.              

[NewlyMintedThai]

If possible, ask the SB guys for a copy of the letter with your name and the king’s signature on it. They told me they weren’t supposed to give it out, but they did. Things will start to happen once you whip that out...


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[Arkady]

21 hours ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

If possible, ask the SB guys for a copy of the letter with your name and the king’s signature on it. They told me they weren’t supposed to give it out, but they did. Things will start to happen once you whip that out...


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Good idea. The district office actually asked to see that letter when I went for my ID card but I only got it from SB three months later.  Perhaps things would have moved faster, if I had it.

[sathuluv]

Contratulations! So how long was it between the MOI interview and the approval?

Thanks. Approx. 10months.


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[sathuluv]

Congrats !


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Thank you.


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[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, sathuluv said:

Thanks. Approx. 10months.


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That's great! How long between the NIA interview and the MOI interview?

 

By the way, can anyone tell me where the ministry of education is and how long it would take to get there from Don Muang at 11 am on a Monday. I've booked an interview with the NIA buy forgot to ask exactly where it is. They said they'd already told my wife, but she doesn't know too.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Neeranam

[GarryP]

28 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

That's great! How long between the NIA interview and the MOI interview?

 

By the way, can anyone tell me where the ministry of education is and how long it would take to get there from Don Muang at 11 am on a Monday. I've booked an interview with the NIA buy forgot to ask exactly where it is. They said they'd already told my wife, but she doesn't know too.

 

[ubonjoe]

24 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

By the way, can anyone tell me where the ministry of education is and how long it would take to get there from Don Muang at 11 am on a Monday.

Best I can do is provide a link to this map. https://goo.gl/maps/7aZnrRDtiB42

I checked directions and it shows 40 minutes by car but that probably does not take into account traffic.

[Neeranam]

Thanks for the maps!

 

I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of the NIA interview. They asked for yet another, "bai rap rong been duan" or letter from my work stating my salary. Also a few other documents like work permit and passport. Don't they get the files from SB? I did have to hand in 5 copies of them all.

Anyways, it is what it is, and another trip to Bangkok.

Any tips would be welcome as to how many people will interview us, the questions asked, and what would be appropriate you wear. I assume this is not as important as the interview with the MOI.

Is this the one that used to take place at the McDonald's at Ploenjit?