Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Naam]

5 hours ago, Arkady said:

Germany is not exactly liberal in this respect. I was born there to non-German parents in the days when most countries gave citizenship to all born there. But not Germany. Germans applying for another nationality need to obtain approval from the German Foreign Ministry to keep their German nationality before they apply or it will be revoked, if they are found out. They need to have a good reason, e.g. need to own land or company, and need to prove they retain lasting ties with Germany. I am not sure what the rules are for half Germans. I know a German with a Singaporean wife and half half children who have managed to conceal their German nationalities from Singapore and vice versa but it sounds like a walking a tight rope, as they might lose either or both one day.

no problem for children (with one parent German citizen) having dual nationality if born after jan 1, 1979

[THAIJAMES]

A couple of years ago when I was at the MOI in Chiangmai the head did show me a flow chart of the citizenship application process.  The process for applicants in the outer provinces was more complicated with more steps than the applicants from Bangkok.

 

The main thing is that the process is working in Chiangmai.  More than likely VIBE might just need to show some business transactions (receipts) to prove that he has a real business.

 

I don't recall in the flow chart that the applicant had to go to Bangkok for a further interview.

More than likely they will request the information by official document?

 

Vibe, you can just ask the MOI in Chiangmai what are the next steps.  They are friendly enough and have a section at the Government Building Complex that deals with citizenship.  I am sure they can show you that flow chart and maybe give you some guidelines on time frame.

 

One thing that I have noticed about Thai bureaucracy is if they can't stop your application, they will try to delay it by asking for more and more documentation in the hopes that you will give up.  Just keep on providing them with what they need and you will get citizenship.

Edited December 27, 2018 by THAIJAMES

[skippybangkok]

Gave my Thai ID to a bank clerk the other day to open an account for LTF, she asked me what nationality I was..... Lol


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[GabbaGabbaHey]

16 hours ago, skippybangkok said:

Gave my Thai ID to a bank clerk the other day to open an account for LTF, she asked me what nationality I was..... Lol


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Good one. Let me guess, when you replied "I'm Thai" she said something like "I mean, the real one" (lol)
 

[Neeranam]

22 hours ago, skippybangkok said:

Gave my Thai ID to a bank clerk the other day to open an account for LTF, she asked me what nationality I was..... Lol


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I think one perhaps needs thicker skin living here as a citizen than as a foreigner!

[Arkady]

On 12/27/2018 at 6:28 PM, skippybangkok said:

Gave my Thai ID to a bank clerk the other day to open an account for LTF, she asked me what nationality I was..... Lol


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

I've had that one many times now.  At first I got irritated and just said I was Thai.  Now I have become a bit more tolerant and say that I am Thai but was born British.  Imagine the fuss in the UK, if Brits with brown or yellow faces were asked what nationality they were in banks or similar.

[Arkady]

The reaction of the CM committee to Vibe working for his own family SME business reminds me of my introduction to a senior Immigration official after I had been told my PR application would be rejected because I worked for a representative office which was effectively a branch of an overseas company which could not earn income or pay tax in Thailand.  The official, who was a Police Major General, told me I was being blocked by an internal Immigration guideline that was not fixed in law and he was able to override it for me with his personal recommendation which he did.  He also showed me a stack of applications, the photos on some of which I recognised, that were being rejected out of hand due to a similar unpublished Immigration guideline to bin all applications from people working for companies with less than 5 million baht paid up capital.  Since the the policy was not supported by any law or regulation and was just internally fabricated nastiness, he told me that the applicants couldn't be told the real reason for their rejections and many re-applied with the same result.  He said that there were too many fake companies set up by foreigners for the purpose of getting visas and it just made Immigration's work easier to reject applicants from 2 million baht companies out of hand, without having to check that they were real businesses and get involved in acrimonious disputes.  Of course, if this had been made public the scammers would have upped the ante by raising their paid up capitals to 5 million baht but few people knew about this internal rule and I can't say, if it is still in force today. 

 

I was actually in Vibe's situation working for my own company as the only employee a year before I applied for citizenship.  It was my experience at Immigration that influenced me to accept an offer to work for a large Thai plc before I applied which effectively washed the small company off the radar.  I have often wondered whether things would have worked out smoothly, if I had applied from the small company.  It is not surprising that some officials might suspect that someone might have just set up a small company to get visas and ultimately apply for citizenship.  It seems that there are also a lot of fake marriages out there for the same reasons.

[onthemoon]

16 hours ago, Arkady said:

The reaction of the CM committee to Vibe working for his own family SME business reminds me of my introduction to a senior Immigration official after I had been told my PR application would be rejected because I worked for a representative office which was effectively a branch of an overseas company which could not earn income or pay tax in Thailand.  The official, who was a Police Major General, told me I was being blocked by an internal Immigration guideline that was not fixed in law and he was able to override it for me with his personal recommendation which he did.  He also showed me a stack of applications, the photos on some of which I recognised, that were being rejected out of hand due to a similar unpublished Immigration guideline to bin all applications from people working for companies with less than 5 million baht paid up capital.  Since the the policy was not supported by any law or regulation and was just internally fabricated nastiness, he told me that the applicants couldn't be told the real reason for their rejections and many re-applied with the same result.  He said that there were too many fake companies set up by foreigners for the purpose of getting visas and it just made Immigration's work easier to reject applicants from 2 million baht companies out of hand, without having to check that they were real businesses and get involved in acrimonious disputes.  Of course, if this had been made public the scammers would have upped the ante by raising their paid up capitals to 5 million baht but few people knew about this internal rule and I can't say, if it is still in force today. 

 

I was actually in Vibe's situation working for my own company as the only employee a year before I applied for citizenship.  It was my experience at Immigration that influenced me to accept an offer to work for a large Thai plc before I applied which effectively washed the small company off the radar.  I have often wondered whether things would have worked out smoothly, if I had applied from the small company.  It is not surprising that some officials might suspect that someone might have just set up a small company to get visas and ultimately apply for citizenship.  It seems that there are also a lot of fake marriages out there for the same reasons.

That's disturbing. I have been working for my own company for 10 years, paid-up capital is more than 2 but less than 5 million. Should this cause me to get worried, or has this internal regulation been scrapped?

 

Also, with regards to your last paragraph, I thought we have to work for the same company for at least 3 (or was it 5) years?

[yankee99]

4 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

That's disturbing. I have been working for my own company for 10 years, paid-up capital is more than 2 but less than 5 million. Should this cause me to get worried, or has this internal regulation been scrapped?

 

Also, with regards to your last paragraph, I thought we have to work for the same company for at least 3 (or was it 5) years?

Was this Major General in the SB or was this after the moi interview? 

[samran]

36 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

That's disturbing. I have been working for my own company for 10 years, paid-up capital is more than 2 but less than 5 million. Should this cause me to get worried, or has this internal regulation been scrapped?

 

Also, with regards to your last paragraph, I thought we have to work for the same company for at least 3 (or was it 5) years?

FWIW, and i happily admit this is pure speculation on my behalf based on a situation which is not directly comparable...

 

When we applied for my wife’s citizenship, my income (which was the one being assessed) was based on me contracting to two seperate entities. One a BOI registered firm and one to a large multilateral. 

 

Fast forward to the MOI interview I was asked again my job to which I told them I ran my own firm and I told them what I did. Now they never asked for any more info on this but it don’t seem to concern them one bit. 

 

Different circumstances to you guys for sure but I suspect they look at you as a whole package and special branch won’t accept your application if they don’t think it has a high chance of passing muster anyway. 

 

 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

That's disturbing. I have been working for my own company for 10 years, paid-up capital is more than 2 but less than 5 million. Should this cause me to get worried, or has this internal regulation been scrapped?

 

Also, with regards to your last paragraph, I thought we have to work for the same company for at least 3 (or was it 5) years?

You just need to have been working continuously with back to back WPs for 3 years. It doesn't have to be for the same company.

 

 The 5 million paid-up capital was not to do with citizenship. It was an internal regulation of Immigration for PR screening to weed out applicants working for potentially fake companies (along with many from real companies but that's life in Thailand). Immigration reasoned that 2 million was (and still is) the minimum capital for a WP and that fake companies would not be likely to have any more capital than the minimum, which is no doubt true but many genuine companies also have only 2 million or 1 million, if they don't need WPs. There has never been any suggestion that SB or the MoI operate the same internal regulation for citizenship.  I mentioned it to illustrate the type of suspicion that the company might exist purely to obtain visas, work permits and ultimately citizenship, that can arise when an applicant is working for his own family owned business. That was clearly the thought process during Vibe's interview when they started on a nasty tack after his wife mentioned the hassles of getting visas and WPs as a reason for his citizenship application. Immigration sees loads of these foreigner scams to get visas and seems to be a lot more suspicious than SB which has hardly any contact with foreigners with the exception of this one tiny department.

 

So I wouldn't worry unduly about this. Just be aware that a small business might be subject to scrutiny.  Also, if you have the chance to either increase paid-up capital or move to a larger company before applying, it would be worth considering.

 

Frankly I doubt that there is any internal regulation of this type in respect of citizenship applications. Nevertheless, suspicions of applicants working for small companies are likely to arise. However, I think that SB would look closely at the tax paid by the employer to see if it is a real business.  In addition, if the applicant holds any shares in his own name, he has to submit the company's accounts. I don't suppose SB is very adept at reading financial statements but they should be able to figure out what a company's revenues and earnings are.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, samran said:

FWIW, and i happily admit this is pure speculation on my behalf based on a situation which is not directly comparable...

 

When we applied for my wife’s citizenship, my income (which was the one being assessed) was based on me contracting to two seperate entities. One a BOI registered firm and one to a large multilateral. 

 

Fast forward to the MOI interview I was asked again my job to which I told them I ran my own firm and I told them what I did. Now they never asked for any more info on this but it don’t seem to concern them one bit. 

 

Different circumstances to you guys for sure but I suspect they look at you as a whole package and special branch won’t accept your application if they don’t think it has a high chance of passing muster anyway.

 

It is possible the reaction would have been the same, if you were applying for naturalisation for yourself with those circumstances. However, the scrutiny of a Thai husband's income and tax is not at the same level and I think only one year's income and tax history is required.

 

Anyway, if anyone is concerned they should ask SB Bangkok if there are any issues to do with applicants working for their own companies. I expect the answer would be that there is no regulation prohibiting it and, as long as it doesn't sound or look like a fake business, it would be fine. The people who interviewed Vibe in CM were clearly inexperienced at screening citizenship applications and may have gone into overdrive to cover themselves.  On the other hand the NIA might also look into this aspect of an applicant's background.  They normally quiz applicants about their marriages to Thai spouses to sniff out fake marriages, so this would be just an extension of that process.  If the Thai spouse owns shares in the employer company, that would be a natural lead in to questions regarding the genuineness of the business.

[THAIJAMES]

Like onthemoon and many other here, I have PR and own my own small company that has been in operation over 20 years.

My business is not as active and profitable as it was 5-10 years ago but enough to pay me the minimum required 80K for citizenship application for a single person with PR.

Do you think that having PR excludes us from suspicion and the scrutiny of our business that non PR might get?

 

If so any tips on how to avoid problems when applying for citizenship as a small business owner.

[onthemoon]

8 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

It is possible the reaction would have been the same, if you were applying for naturalisation for yourself with those circumstances. However, the scrutiny of a Thai husband's income and tax is not at the same level and I think only one year's income and tax history is required.

 

Anyway, if anyone is concerned they should ask SB Bangkok if there are any issues to do with applicants working for their own companies. I expect the answer would be that there is no regulation prohibiting it and, as long as it doesn't sound or look like a fake business, it would be fine. The people who interviewed Vibe in CM were clearly inexperienced at screening citizenship applications and may have gone into overdrive to cover themselves.  On the other hand the NIA might also look into this aspect of an applicant's background.  They normally quiz applicants about their marriages to Thai spouses to sniff out fake marriages, so this would be just an extension of that process.  If the Thai spouse owns shares in the employer company, that would be a natural lead in to questions regarding the genuineness of the business.

Thanks for the heads-up, Arkady. As our company is squeaky-clean (we advertise with being 100% compliant), I don't expect any problem but know now that they will want to see more documents.

[Arkady]

22 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

Like onthemoon and many other here, I have PR and own my own small company that has been in operation over 20 years.

My business is not as active and profitable as it was 5-10 years ago but enough to pay me the minimum required 80K for citizenship application for a single person with PR.

Do you think that having PR excludes us from suspicion and the scrutiny of our business that non PR might get?

 

If so any tips on how to avoid problems when applying for citizenship as a small business owner.

So far the only firm evidence of suspicion of citizenship applicants employed by their own family SMEs is from the committee that interviewed Vibe in Chiang Mai recently. No one has reported having this problem with SB in Bkk or with the MoI. However, given that it is known that Immigration has taken a dim view of such applicants for PR in the past and there is overlap between the PR and citizenship processes at the MoI, it would as well to be prepared.

 

I note that no. 11 on the documentation list for citizenship applications is evidence of corporate income tax payments of the employer, if you are a shareholder.  In my case, I sold the small holding of shares I had in my listed company employer to avoid having to hassle the company for tax receipts, even though I managed to get away with submitting only the list of the top 20 shareholders, rather than the thousands of names of its shareholders. In the case of your own small company, it would probably be better to do the opposite and make sure you have shares in your own name and submit the company's corporate tax receipts. Payment of a satisfactory amount of corporate income tax would probably be the best evidence for these types of people that a company is a genuine operating entity.  Also, since the submission of corporate income tax receipts is a requirement, if you own even one share, you are not drawing attention to the issue by submitting things like the company's financial statements which have not be requested.

 

On the other hand, if your company has been paying very little corporate income tax, it might be better to transfer all your shares to someone else and hope the question doesn't come up or that they never ask for documentary evidence of corporate income tax payment. You can always transfer the shares back into your name as soon as you have got the shareholders' list without your name on it from the BDB.

 

Re applicants who already have PR, I guess that back in the mists of time it may have been assumed that, since they'd already passed muster with Immigration, a lower level of scrutiny of aspects that already been scrutinised by Immigration was in order.  Indeed, that thinking might be behind the lower level of scrutiny of citizenship applicants in general relative to PR applicants. However, I would say that, having  applied for citizenship as a PR myself, there is no advantage given to PR applicants with the exception of the additional points they get. SB has a responsibility to screen applicants and personal circumstances can change.  SB will not catch any less flak for forwarding the file of someone found by the MoI to be unqualified on the grounds that that person already had PR.

[Arkady]

10 hours ago, VIBE said:

Our company is all legit as well, very good accountant to make sure of that.  They seamed to believe its a fake company, as I mentioned that I used to work as freelancer overseas.  I forgot to tell them that there are times I billed the overseas company and had my Thai company receive the income, so over the years we have had this happen so I am certain if they do investigate my company more, it will be fine.  We have income every year that we declare, and a real ongoing project so easy enough to prove.  But when in a room with them all asking different things they were kinda making up their own stories about me and my company.  It was really unpleasant.  Our company has paid up capital of 5M, and my salary was 100K per month that I paid tax on.  You would think that I am the type of person they would be ok with staying here, not scrutinize to death. Oh well, TIT.  I wore a suit and tie, and my wife said maybe I dressed to well?  Crazy.  They fail to understand that its all done, what every I did to full fill their requirements are so I can stay with my Thai wife and daughter and not have to worry every year about visas.  Or, if I fell on hard times, I would be selling product at the market, or driving grab taxi, doing what every I needed to do to feed my family.  As it is now, I am not allowed to do that.  How crazy is that?

Sounds like someone picked up on the fact you said you had been working overseas and maybe ran away with the idea that it would be possible to someone to be actually working overseas but maintain a company and WP in Thailand, as well as regularly visiting family and home base in the Kingdom. Technically there is nothing wrong with working for a Thai company and being sent on short term assignments overseas.  But if the substance of the arrangement were that the applicant was really working full time overseas, despite channeling some income back to the Thai company to support a salary and work permit, then the applicant could be regarded as not meeting the requirement to have an occupation in Thailand.  However, if you have spent most of your time in Thailand during the 3 year qualifying period, as can be verified from your passport, this should not be an issue.  Otherwise, paying tax on a salary of 100k and presumably paying a reasonable amount of corporate income tax, assuming you own shares in your own name and need to submit company tax receipts, sounds fine.  So does the company's paid-up capital, should they ever ask to see the the financial statements and have someone who is able to read them.

 

I think you will be fine with the MoI but, since the busybodies in CM put an unpleasant note in you file, I would bring a stack of information about the company including income tax, VAT and social security tax information, and its financial statements when you are called for interview at the MoI or with the NIA. Not bringing something because you couldn't imagine anyone would ask for it is usually a guarantee they will when dealing with the Thai bureaucracy.

[Neeranam]

Hi VIBE, can you please confirm if your interview was with the MOI or not.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Hi VIBE, can you please confirm if your interview was with the MOI or not.

He said it was some kind of screening committee in Chiang Mai that included some officials who flew up from Bangkok. This sounds like something to compensate for the fact that the provinces that are willing to process applications do so without the expertise of a dedicated SB department, although we have not heard of it happening in other provinces. I am not sure if the next step is vetting by the narcotics people and interview with NIA before the file goes to MOI.

 

Anyway it is further evidence of the huge disadvantages that applicants in the provinces deal with. Either change tabien Baan to Bkk and deal with the hassles and appointments in Bkk at a moment’s notice that that involves, put up with overzealous, ignorant and possibly incompetent officials in the provinces, deal with demands for bribes reported in other provincial encounters or face flat refusal or inability to process applications that is often reported from provinces without a critical mass of foreign executives.

[Neeranam]

17 minutes ago, Arkady said:

He said it was some kind of screening committee in Chiang Mai that included some officials who flew up from Bangkok. This sounds like something to compensate for the fact that the provinces that are willing to process applications do so without the expertise of a dedicated SB department, although we have not heard of it happening in other provinces. I am not sure if the next step is vetting by the narcotics people and interview with NIA before the file goes to MOI.

 

Anyway it is further evidence of the huge disadvantages that applicants in the provinces deal with. Either change tabien Baan to Bkk and deal with the hassles and appointments in Bkk at a moment’s notice that that involves, put up with overzealous, ignorant and possibly incompetent officials in the provinces, deal with demands for bribes reported in other provincial encounters or face flat refusal or inability to process applications that is often reported from provinces without a critical mass of foreign executives.

Indeed. I tried to apply for citizenship outside Bangkok and it was a nightmare.

So much easier to move my house book to Bangkok.

Last year only 1 trip to Bangkok for the NIA interview. The year before, perhaps 4 trips.

If everything goes relatively smoothly, only 2 more trips.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, VIBE said:

Thats good advice, thanks very much. Will sit with our accountant and make sure I have all the documents with me.  During the interview I did tell them that I have not left for work overseas for over 1 year, that all income was from my Thai company.  Don't think they heard / understood /or cared as they just kept on the same track.  Funny thing, after the interview one BIB talked to us outside and said I should not have said anything about working overseas, but, when they are asking me questions, I believed being 100% truthful is best, silly me.

With some people you need to be selective with the truth which doesn’t need to involve lying.

 

If your passport shows travel in the first two years of your three year qualifying period that cannot be explained by holidays, it would be worth producing contracts between the overseas clients and your Thai company and your contracts with the company to show that you were required to spend time overseas, if requested by the overseas clients of the firm. Thais like contracts as evidence and frankly they are not difficult to cobble together retrospectively, while Thai officials  will never willingly seek to verify something from overseas. Auditors and banks lap them up without even reading them because the legalese English is too much of a strain for them. 

 

In the very worse case you could just re-apply once you have washed the overseas work from your three year qualifying period.

[Rugon]

22 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Indeed. I tried to apply for citizenship outside Bangkok and it was a nightmare.

So much easier to move my house book to Bangkok.

Last year only 1 trip to Bangkok for the NIA interview. The year before, perhaps 4 trips.

If everything goes relatively smoothly, only 2 more trips.

How could you explain this if you work outside Bangkok but your Tabien is in Bangkok?

[echrist]

Hello, I'm hoping someone who has been through the citizenship process could answer a couple of questions. I passed the MOI interview 6 months ago. 

 

1. What comes first, the oath ceremony or Royal Gazette announcement?

2. Regarding the oath ceremony, is there any way to see a copy of the oath before reciting it? My Thai is pretty decent, but I imagine I'll butcher the oath if I'm not able to read through it beforehand. If a copy isn't available somewhere, could someone give me an idea of what is int he oath?  

 

Much appreciated!

[dbrenn]

17 minutes ago, Rugon said:

How could you explain this if you work outside Bangkok but your Tabien is in Bangkok?

It's normal practice in Thailand to have a permanent family home in one province but work in another. It wouldn't be seen as unusual so there is no necessity to have a WP and tabien bahn in the same location. 

 

When I applied, albeit long ago, i moved my tabien bahn to Bangkok (where my WP had always been) for similar reasons - I didn't fancy my chances of success applying in Chiang Rai, even though I could have done so.

 

As soon as my tabien bahn was transferred to the house of a friend, SB in Bangkok welcomed my application. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by dbrenn

[Rugon]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

It's normal practice in Thailand to have a permanent family home in one province but work in another. It wouldn't be seen as unusual. 

 

When I applied, albeit long ago, i moved my tabien bahn to Bangkok for similar reasons - I didn't fancy my chances of success applying in Chiang Rai.

I'm aware that Thais do this, however I worry that that the SB/MOI/NIA think I am doing it just to get the citizenship. Did the police come to inspect, check your residence in Chiang Mai or Bangkok? 

[dbrenn]

Just now, Rugon said:

I'm aware that Thais do this, however I worry that that the SB/MOI/NIA think I am doing it just to get the citizenship. Did the police come to inspect, check your residence in Chiang Mai or Bangkok? 

See my edited post above. It was actually SB in Bangkok who (at the time) very helpfully suggested that I find a Bangkok tabien bahn. 

[GarryP]

15 minutes ago, echrist said:

Hello, I'm hoping someone who has been through the citizenship process could answer a couple of questions. I passed the MOI interview 6 months ago. 

 

1. What comes first, the oath ceremony or Royal Gazette announcement?

2. Regarding the oath ceremony, is there any way to see a copy of the oath before reciting it? My Thai is pretty decent, but I imagine I'll butcher the oath if I'm not able to read through it beforehand. If a copy isn't available somewhere, could someone give me an idea of what is int he oath?  

 

Much appreciated!

For the oath ceremony, you just repeat after an SB officer so I would not worry too much.

[qualtrough]

28 minutes ago, Rugon said:

I'm aware that Thais do this, however I worry that that the SB/MOI/NIA think I am doing it just to get the citizenship. Did the police come to inspect, check your residence in Chiang Mai or Bangkok? 

I initially sought to apply for citizenship in a neighboring BKK province. I soon realized that was going to be a dead end. They were actually the ones who recommended changing my tabian bahn to Bangkok. The SB in BKK were fully aware of that and in fact recommended it as well when I told them about the difficulty I experienced. The change process went very smoothly, took an hour or so. Had a distant relative of the wife come down with his tabian bahn in order to put me on it. I then was able to work through the SB and get things underway.

[Rugon]

29 minutes ago, GarryP said:

For the oath ceremony, you just repeat after an SB officer so I would not worry too much.

Is that the final thing you have to do before getting the ID card?

[GarryP]

1 minute ago, Rugon said:

Is that the final thing you have to do before getting the ID card?

If I recall correctly, you take the oath at SB and then there is the announcement in the gazette. You are later called in by SB to pick up your citizenship documents, which include a certificate and copies of the Royal Gazette pages covering the citizenship batch. Then you will need to visit or make an appointment with your local district office to fill out another set of documents and ultimately get your ID card. You will need to take a witness with you to the district office.  

[dbrenn]

19 minutes ago, Rugon said:

Is that the final thing you have to do before getting the ID card?

After the oath, and some more waiting, you get your certificate of naturalisation. Then there's some running around (and confused faces) at your Amphoe to get your ID card.

Edited January 3, 2019 by dbrenn