Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[iancnx]

And even PR will be difficult without a job and if you don't work your wife needs to have an income of at least 30,000 bath. Employement is one of the criteria based on which they determine if you are an asset to Thai society.

At age 55 in a couple of years time my armed forces pension will uplift to @80k baht per month. My wife, a teacher, will be on 20k baht per month. And I have personally invested over 10m baht in condo's + house + truck in the last 8 years.

There must be thousands in a similar position. Barking mad ain't it!

Thanks for the reply.

Edited August 20, 2014 by iancnx

[samran]

I just would like to confirm if possible. Am I right in assuming if you are married to a Thai, live here permanently (non O extended) but do not work (I don't need too) then you are unable to get citizenship? Is Permanent Residency the only way to circumvent the annual extensions and 90/90/90/90?

Your assumption in regard to citizenship is correct. You do not qualify. As to PR, I'll leave that to the experts but believe you need to be in employment in Thailand to qualify for that too.

Just as I was led to believe. Thanks for replying.

When will Thailand catch up with the rest of the world I wonder?

Understand your frustration but this thread is probably best kept free of gratuitous policy advice. As the framework sits they want people working and paying income tax.

[CanadianGirl2]

If your husband hasn't been working or paying tax in Thailand recently I would think he would need to set up some form of employment in Thailand for you to qualify.

Thank you, Arkady. He just recently moved back to Thailand after working abroad for many years. He’s now employed in the public sector and makes over the minimum amount to “sponsor me”. So I don't think it should be an issue, other than not having worked/lived in Thailand for many years, which I guess according to Samran's wife's application shouldn't be an issue.

If you are in the provinces, you will have to apply to Special Branch there but they are usually pretty clueless and may even refuse to process your application as it is too much trouble for them to figure out how to do it. If you have or can arrange a tabian baan in Bangkok, you chances will be better, although Phuket and Chonburi have been known to process applications.

We are outside of Bangkok and I believe Immigration is not familiar with citizenship applications at all (as you said), but we do have a good rapport with them. We’ll see how far we can get with the local authorities and go from there I suppose. I never go to Bangkok and would prefer to keep my official address here if possible.

[bkkjames]

Good info provided by the resident experts. Seems like it's about time I should make the attempt and will do more research into this. Been here 14+ years, employed, paying taxes, married for 7, two kids...

[GarryP]

Good info provided by the resident experts. Seems like it's about time I should make the attempt and will do more research into this. Been here 14+ years, employed, paying taxes, married for 7, two kids...

Go for it. The actual application process is not that difficult, just a lot of paper work. But if I can do it all myself, with some valuable suggestions/pointers from Arkady, anyone can. Once in then starts the waiting game.

Edited August 20, 2014 by GarryP

[bkkjames]

Good info provided by the resident experts. Seems like it's about time I should make the attempt and will do more research into this. Been here 14+ years, employed, paying taxes, married for 7, two kids...

Go for it. The actual application process is not that difficult, just a lot of paper work. But if I can do it all myself, with some valuable suggestions/pointers from Arkady, anyone can. Once in then starts the waiting game.

Thanks. Guess I better go make a few donations first, and practice singing lol.

[samran]

Good info provided by the resident experts. Seems like it's about time I should make the attempt and will do more research into this. Been here 14+ years, employed, paying taxes, married for 7, two kids...

Go for it. The actual application process is not that difficult, just a lot of paper work. But if I can do it all myself, with some valuable suggestions/pointers from Arkady, anyone can. Once in then starts the waiting game.

Thanks. Guess I better go make a few donations first, and practice singing lol.

Given you are married, no singing necessary.

[samran]

If your husband hasn't been working or paying tax in Thailand recently I would think he would need to set up some form of employment in Thailand for you to qualify.

Thank you, Arkady. He just recently moved back to Thailand after working abroad for many years. He’s now employed in the public sector and makes over the minimum amount to “sponsor me”. So I don't think it should be an issue, other than not having worked/lived in Thailand for many years, which I guess according to Samran's wife's application shouldn't be an issue.

If you are in the provinces, you will have to apply to Special Branch there but they are usually pretty clueless and may even refuse to process your application as it is too much trouble for them to figure out how to do it. If you have or can arrange a tabian baan in Bangkok, you chances will be better, although Phuket and Chonburi have been known to process applications.

We are outside of Bangkok and I believe Immigration is not familiar with citizenship applications at all (as you said), but we do have a good rapport with them. We’ll see how far we can get with the local authorities and go from there I suppose. I never go to Bangkok and would prefer to keep my official address here if possible.

We applied probably 2 years after we got back from a stint in the UK. 2007 or 2008..and still waiting

Just to re-iterate. It isn't immigration who you deal with, it is police special branch (San-ti-baan). So you'll have to start with them. In Bangkok they are friendly and easy. So you'll have to compare your experience where you are with the genuine ease and helpfulness they give in Bangkok.

[Arkady]

I just would like to confirm if possible. Am I right in assuming if you are married to a Thai, live here permanently (non O extended) but do not work (I don't need too) then you are unable to get citizenship? Is Permanent Residency the only way to circumvent the annual extensions and 90/90/90/90?

Your assumption in regard to citizenship is correct. You do not qualify. As to PR, I'll leave that to the experts but believe you need to be in employment in Thailand to qualify for that too.

Just as I was led to believe. Thanks for replying.

When will Thailand catch up with the rest of the world I wonder?

The answer is very slowly. If you were a female married to a Thai husband, you would already qualify for Thai citizenship with a husband earning B20k. The law was only amended in 2008 to allow foreign males with Thai wives to apply without PR first. The original bill proposed by a female legislator in order to create fairness for Thai women with foreign husbands in line with the constitution would have given you exactly the same rights as foreign women with Thai husbands. However, that was shot down by the Interior Ministry's legal committee in a publicly minuted meeting in grounds of "national security" with the comment that giving foreign males with Thai wives exemption from the requirements to have PR and knowledge of Thai (i.e. Exemption from singing) was a perfectly adequate concession to the demands for gender equality.

This issue will come up again at some point in future but who knows when. Perhaps after the next constitution promises from freedom fro gender and other discriminations like its two predecessors but I am not holding my breath. If she feels strongly about this, your wife should campaign with with media and lawmakers (the 2008 bill for gender equality was proposed under a military appointed govt). So get cracking.

The Nationality Act and the Immigration Act ( in respect of PR) were broadly framed to deal with the huge influx of Chinese labourers who arrived before the second war. There were no work permits then but, if you could demonstrate that you had a trade or profession that was needed, you could get PR which gave the right to work. The rules for citizenship for males were simply an extension of that for those who already been working for 5 years with PR. For women marrying Thais the situation was different because countries ( including the UK and US) automatically cancelled the citizenship of women who married aliens. Therefore the convention in most countries (including Thailand) was to grant citizenship to women married their citizens almost automatically rather than leave them stateless. By the same token Thailand cancelled the citizenship of Thai women who married Chinese citizens without Thai nationality but gave them PR instead.

In the past the very small number of farangs living in Thailand were expats working for foreign companies who went home to retire (because they could, whereas most Chinese either couldn't afford to or conditions In China were too unstable). Now farangs come out to retire and there are more farang retirees (largely males) in Thailand than farang workers. For now they are viewed as something of a threat in the same way as labourers from neighbouring countries. But ultimately this perception will probably change.

Meanwhile the only options open to you are to get a job and qualify for citizenship or buy an elite card. Technically you could apply for PR based on your wife's salary but I have never heard of PR being approved for anyone who wasn't working in Thailand at the time of application. So I assume such applications are put permanently on ice.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[iancnx]

I just would like to confirm if possible. Am I right in assuming if you are married to a Thai, live here permanently (non O extended) but do not work (I don't need too) then you are unable to get citizenship? Is Permanent Residency the only way to circumvent the annual extensions and 90/90/90/90?

Your assumption in regard to citizenship is correct. You do not qualify. As to PR, I'll leave that to the experts but believe you need to be in employment in Thailand to qualify for that too.

Just as I was led to believe. Thanks for replying.

When will Thailand catch up with the rest of the world I wonder?

The answer is very slowly. If you were a female married to a Thai husband, you would already qualify for Thai citizenship with a husband earning B20k. The law was only amended in 2008 to allow foreign males with Thai wives to apply without PR first. The original bill proposed by a female legislator in order to create fairness for Thai women with foreign husbands in line with the constitution would have given you exactly the same rights as foreign women with Thai husbands. However, that was shot down by the Interior Ministry's legal committee in a publicly minuted meeting in grounds of "national security" with the comment that giving foreign males with Thai wives exemption from the requirements to have PR and knowledge of Thai (i.e. Exemption from singing) was a perfectly adequate concession to the demands for gender equality.

This issue will come up again at some point in future but who knows when. Perhaps after the next constitution promises from freedom fro gender and other discriminations like its two predecessors but I am not holding my breath. If she feels strongly about this, your wife should campaign with with media and lawmakers (the 2008 bill for gender equality was proposed under a military appointed govt). So get cracking.

The Nationality Act and the Immigration Act ( in respect of PR) were broadly framed to deal with the huge influx of Chinese labourers who arrived before the second war. There were no work permits then but, if you could demonstrate that you had a trade or profession that was needed, you could get PR which gave the right to work. The rules for citizenship for males were simply an extension of that for those who already been working for 5 years with PR. For women marrying Thais the situation was different because countries ( including the UK and US) automatically cancelled the citizenship of women who married aliens. Therefore the convention in most countries (including Thailand) was to grant citizenship to women married their citizens almost automatically rather than leave them stateless. By the same token Thailand cancelled the citizenship of Thai women who married Chinese citizens without Thai nationality but gave them PR instead.

In the past the very small number of farangs living in Thailand were expats working for foreign companies who went home to retire (because they could, whereas most Chinese either couldn't afford to or conditions In China were too unstable). Now farangs come out to retire and there are more farang retirees (largely males) in Thailand than farang workers. For now they are viewed as something of a threat in the same way as labourers from neighbouring countries. But ultimately this perception will probably change.

Meanwhile the only options open to you are to get a job and qualify for citizenship or buy an elite card. Technically you could apply for PR based on your wife's salary but I have never heard of PR being approved for anyone who wasn't working in Thailand at the time of application. So I assume such applications are put permanently on ice.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

That is an enormously helpful post; I have learnt a lot. Many thanks for taking the time to respond.

[icare999]

interesting and well done. Apart from a couple of americans who have been here since Vietnam war In 30 years I've never met a forang who got Thai citizenship. Plenty who had PR (permanent residence status). Im not at fall jealous but honestly doth see point unless you believe theirs a chance they wont let you stay by which i mean they will kick out all forang retirees married and rest. If that happened which i think has a 1 in million chance you'd not want to stay anyway. Ive thought about applying for PR but I know several people who have that and they tell me its a waste of time since they still have to report every year and if they happen to be our of country when they should report they loose it and it costs nearly 200,000 baht.

I just dont see advantage at all at least for someone like me whose been here over 30 years. Land ownership i doth care its all in my Thai wife and children's names anyway. Running a business my Thai wife can do that or soon our children and apart from for fun id not want to be a tuk yuk driver,. MAybe not reporting ev dry 90 days or once a year queuing for my retirement extension 1/2 a day would be nice but no big deal. Perhaps if your poor it would be useful to save approx 6000 a year (retirement extension and multi entry permit) anmd not need to keep 800k baht in bank for 3 months but id say if your that poor you should not be here.

No I dont want a marriage visa and some jumped up immigration guys visiting our private home etc and before some pathetic person says their is no such thing as a retirement visa well tell immigration since thats what they stamp in my passport each year and queue sign says retirement visa.

[icare999]

For me it would be peace of mind to be able to rest comfortably each day not knowing where the curent rule are heading as you can not be sure what will happen next week let alone next year if you are on retirement or marriage visa's. Congratulatons on hanging in there calmly without getting too rattled by it all.

Couldn't agree more - peace of mind was the exact reason why I went to all that trouble. Now I can live here any time I like, doing what I like, completely on my own terms.

i used to be concerned because i was only on 1 year extensions but after a few years did not bother me a bit since chances of immigration not allowing me to stay are id say 1 in 1 million or less. Ive been here over 30 years have a wonderful this wife and 2 Thai kids (who have 2 passports) and unless thailand descends into a north korea or pol pot place theirs not a chance they wont let me stay IMO. So IMO piece of mind must mean your very insecure type but well done anyway. For me if i could ever be bothered to even try for PR it would be for heck of it just like when I managed to get a cheque book here which I did after 2 years of trying and i dont know any other forang with that or Thais for that matter (unless it was a business). I used it once to just show it could be done.

[Arkady]

Just to re-iterate. It isn't immigration who you deal with, it is police special branch (San-ti-baan). So you'll have to start with them. In Bangkok they are friendly and easy. So you'll have to compare your experience where you are with the genuine ease and helpfulness they give in Bangkok.

This is actually a rather important point for those outside Bkk. Approvals published in the Royal Gazette seem to be around 95%++ Bkk addresses. I have seen a few Phukets and Chonburis and maybe a Chiang Mai and a Nonthaburi in recent years but that's about it. Granted, the vast majority of those interested clearly live in Bkk but there may be something else at work here. Bkk has a dedicated Special Branch section for nationality applications and the other 76 provinces don't. I seem to remember a TV member tried in Surat and gave up there after they refused to process the application but succeeded after moving house registration to Bkk. There is a risk that provincial branches may refuse to process you, stonewall you or just mess up the application, so you get rejected by the Interior Ministry a few years later. Even Bkk messes up some applications because it is complex and communication between the police and the MOI is not that great - I know because they messed up mine and it was knocked back 2.5 years later but luckily I was able to get Special Branch to correct their error and lost only 6 months. Some people have had to start the application again from scratch through no fault of their own.

I don't mean to be alarmist but, like Samran, I thoroughly recommend CanadianGirl2 to go to Special Branch in Bangkok first to get all necessary information and then visit SB in your province and take a view on whether they are able and willing to process your application correctly and provide follow up and support for several years until the end of the process.

[Arkady]

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Witnesses and employment will no be a problem. I have several long term Thai friends and can also arrange someone in a more senior position, but as you correct mentioned about the salary maybe better to stick to middle level colleages/friends. And for now there is no worry in sight about my job.

Better to save your high level connections to lobby on your behalf with the Interior Ministry later on and not bother them with the witnessing. Special Branch told me that no one pays any attention to the status of your witnesses, as long as they meet the basic criteria.

[Cheops]

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Witnesses and employment will no be a problem. I have several long term Thai friends and can also arrange someone in a more senior position, but as you correct mentioned about the salary maybe better to stick to middle level colleages/friends. And for now there is no worry in sight about my job.

Better to save your high level connections to lobby on your behalf with the Interior Ministry later on and not bother them with the witnessing. Special Branch told me that no one pays any attention to the status of your witnesses, as long as they meet the basic criteria.

Thanks a lot for all your advice Arkady!

[paz]

before some pathetic person says their is no such thing as a retirement visa well tell immigration since thats what they stamp in my passport each year and queue sign says retirement visa.

Name calling aside... Check again the form that you sign, what does it says on the very top ?

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/download/tm7.doc

[Arkady]

interesting and well done. Apart from a couple of americans who have been here since Vietnam war In 30 years I've never met a forang who got Thai citizenship. Plenty who had PR (permanent residence status). Im not at fall jealous but honestly doth see point unless you believe theirs a chance they wont let you stay by which i mean they will kick out all forang retirees married and rest. If that happened which i think has a 1 in million chance you'd not want to stay anyway. Ive thought about applying for PR but I know several people who have that and they tell me its a waste of time since they still have to report every year and if they happen to be our of country when they should report they loose it and it costs nearly 200,000 baht.

I just dont see advantage at all at least for someone like me whose been here over 30 years. Land ownership i doth care its all in my Thai wife and children's names anyway. Running a business my Thai wife can do that or soon our children and apart from for fun id not want to be a tuk yuk driver,. MAybe not reporting ev dry 90 days or once a year queuing for my retirement extension 1/2 a day would be nice but no big deal. Perhaps if your poor it would be useful to save approx 6000 a year (retirement extension and multi entry permit) anmd not need to keep 800k baht in bank for 3 months but id say if your that poor you should not be here.

No I dont want a marriage visa and some jumped up immigration guys visiting our private home etc and before some pathetic person says their is no such thing as a retirement visa well tell immigration since thats what they stamp in my passport each year and queue sign says retirement visa.

Good to hear that you are able to obtain the visa status that meets your requirements. The financial requirements for retirement and marriage extensions are overdue for an increase but the last time they did that they grandfathered people with 5 or so continuous extensions at the old rate. Regarding PR, you don't actually have to report once a year but you do need a re-entry visa and endorsement from Immigration that are valid for a year, if you want to travel abroad. Otherwise, you need to get an endorsement from your local police station every 5 years. It's only a problem, if you stay out of the country beyond the validity date of your re-entry visa but you can avoid that by renewing it for another year before going away, if it is close to expiry to cover unexpected extension of trip. No need to renew on the same date every year.

[Johnniey]

I wish to apply for citizenship. I live in Khon Kaen. Would I be best to apply here or in Bangkok. I've had a WP for 26 years and a yellow house book for over 10 so obviously speak Thai. I'm married. I've no receipt of charity donation, how important is this?

[Mario2008]

You had a work permit? Question is if you still have a work permit. If not, you do not qualify.

Charitable donations are part of the process.

[abrahamzvi]

Very Impressive First Post !

Snip. When commenting on the post directly above you, no need to copy the entire post in the quote.

it is indeed most impressive and the advantages are really there. I believe it is even easier now if one is married to a Thai wife. However, all is fine if your country allows double nationality. Some European countries do not, which means one loses one's nationality by getting naturalised in another country and that is something very few people are prepared to do. I love Thailand, I really consider it home, but I'd rather face the "difficulties" involved in being a foreigner here that give up my nationality, be it for loyalty to my country, be it for convenience of travelling or for other reasons.

[Johnniey]

You had a work permit? Question is if you still have a work permit. If not, you do not qualify.

Charitable donations are part of the process.

No I've had a wp means I still have one.

I know charitable donations are part of the process; my question is how important are they?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Johnniey

[Johnniey]

You had a work permit? Question is if you still have a work permit. If not, you do not qualify.

Charitable donations are part of the process.

No "I've had a wp" means I still have one. I guess you're not a native English speaker.

I know charitable donations are part of the process; my question is how important are they?

[Mario2008]

You had a work permit? Question is if you still have a work permit. If not, you do not qualify.

Charitable donations are part of the process.

No I've had a wp means I still have one.

I know charitable donations are part of the process; my question is how important are they?

Nationality is awarded based on a points system, you lose points if you don't have it and make a poorer impression. So it can be imported.

I would at least make some donations now or see if you can perhaps something like the local temple confirm that you sometimes make donations to them.

[mataleo]

Is this the same as permanent resident ? Whats the difference. And how u become perm res.?

[Mario2008]

PR gives you the right to stay in Thailand without needing extensions of stay.

Thai nationality would make you Thai national, with all rights in entitles, such as right to live and work (without a work permit) and own land.

If not married to a Thai you must go through PR first.

[GarryP]

I noted that the likely candidate for Interior Minister is General Anupong Paochinda. I wonder how this bodes for those waiting for the signature of the minister.

[Oasis]

I noted that the likely candidate for Interior Minister is General Anupong Paochinda. I wonder how this bodes for those waiting for the signature of the minister.

Cabinet will be appointed next month in September 2014 as per news. Hope the things will be moving quicker. Good Luck to all of us!

[Arkady]

I noted that the likely candidate for Interior Minister is General Anupong Paochinda. I wonder how this bodes for those waiting for the signature of the minister.

Cabinet will be appointed next month in September 2014 as per news. Hope the things will be moving quicker. Good Luck to all of us!

I was told by an official in the MOI nationality section that some past ministers have set a clear policy regarding the time frame for processing citizenship (and PR) applications at the various stages. If they don't, everyone tends to go into neutral. Thus interview sessions, for example, get postponed when there is no pressure on the agencies that comprise the committee to send a delegate on the proposed date. They can also speed up the interview queue by reducing the time they spend on each interview and extending the time of the sessions to all day. The next stage is approval in absentia by a more senior committee chaired by the permanent secretary which apparently usually meets twice a year and, I understand, considers everyone who has been interviewed since they last met. That means that your application should be ready for signature by the minister within 6 months but the minister's approval can take 3 years or more. After that there is rarely any delay in obtaining HMK's signature but there can be a delay of several months before you are informed he has signed and you are invited to perform the oath of allegiance. You might also have to wait months after your oath swearing for the minister to approve publication in the Royal Gazette. If that were not enough, the Royal Gazette has recently been holding up some announcements for up to 7 months after the minister approved publication, whereas that normally takes only one or two months. All in all things could be speeded up a lot by a minister who wants to improve efficiency and transparency at the ministry but the next one is only expected to be in office for a year.

Things seemed to go well in this area when Sarayud was both PM and interior minister and my guess is that Anuphong would be a positive, just because he is not a politician but we'll have to wait and see.

[GarryP]

The latest interviews at ISAB were held on 27 August 2014.

[JThai]

November 2006 - Got the good news that the King had countersigned my

application

December 2006 - One of the most memorable parts: the oath. Just

after the King endorsed my application, I was asked to report to the

police department in business attire, armed with a candle, a lotus

flower and an incense stick. I then had to stand with these in my

hands while clasped in a wai, in front of a Buddhist shrine, repaeting

an oath of allegance to King and country, and promising to be an

upright and law-abiding citizen.

Did the King himself actually sign off on the application? No, right?