Usufruct on Thai Child's House?

[JeffersLos]

With a Thai spouse and being a legal biological parent of a Thai born half-Thai child, what is the process for buying a house in the name of the Thai child, with their Thai parent as guardian until they are legally an adult, but having Usufruct on the property in my name (from just after purchase)?

 

Is it  possible to get a Usufuct on the property that is owned by a Thai child?

 

As I understand it, a property that is owned by a child cannot be sold or used as collateral (without court approval), does this also include having a Usufruct in their foreign parent's name being put on the property?

 

TIA. 

[blackcab]

Q: Is it  possible to get a Usufuct on the property that is owned by a Thai child?

 

A: No. A parent cannot place an encumbrance on property owned by their minor child. In the management of the property for the child the most the parent can do is agree a lease up to 3 years in length.

[JeffersLos]

41 minutes ago, blackcab said:

Q: Is it  possible to get a Usufuct on the property that is owned by a Thai child?

 

A: No. A parent cannot place an encumbrance on property owned by their minor child. In the management of the property for the child the most the parent can do is agree a lease up to 3 years in length.

 

Thank you for the reply. 

 

So it is either:

 

The property in the Thai spouse's name + Usufruct in the westerner's name.

 

Or:

 

The property in the Thai child's name, with an Adult Thai guardian for the property until the child is an adult.

 

 

 

Is it possible for the first option - The property in the Thai spouse's name + Usufruct in the westerner's name - and then the property to be sold/transferred to the child, and the Usufruct carries over? So then the Thai child owns the property and it still has the Usufruct from the previous owner? 

[Kenny202]

Its a shame. Id love to buy a place in my sons name, but all it would do is give his mother an incentive to come and get him after abandoning him 5 years ago. Not a bad idea on the transfer. May just work but you'd have to really trust the person you initially signed it over too. I was advised by my lawyer the usefruct on a childs property was doable providing you could get a lands office to agree to it. Could probably be done if u were in the know

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

Is it possible for the first option - The property in the Thai spouse's name + Usufruct in the westerner's name - and then the property to be sold/transferred to the child, and the Usufruct carries over? So then the Thai child owns the property and it still has the Usufruct from the previous owner? 

 

No. You cannot give a minor child an obligation in this way. The land office will not process a sale or a deed of gift to a minor child if the land is encumbered with a usufruct.

[JeffersLos]

12 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

No. You cannot give a minor child an obligation in this way. The land office will not process a sale or a deed of gift to a minor child if the land is encumbered with a usufruct.

 

Thanks for your information.

 

At what age does a Thai child legally become an adult, is it 18 or 20 years old?

 

If the property is in their name, with a Thai adult ( their Thai parent) as legal guardian of the property, is the adult's name also listed on the Chanote, or is it only the Thai child's name listed on the Chanote? 

 

When they become an adult, at age 18/20, is the Thai guardian automatically removed without anything done at a Thai office, or does the child need to go to an office to have the guardianship removed from a document/chanote?

 

Thanks again. 

[BritManToo]

18 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

house in the name of the Thai child, with their Thai parent as guardian until they are legally an adult, but having Usufruct on the property in my name (from just after purchase)?

Why wouldn't you just name yourself as 'guardian' at the land office?

[JeffersLos]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Why wouldn't you just name yourself as 'guardian' at the land office?

 

I'm not Thai. 

 

Can a non-Thai be the land and property's legal guardian until the child owner is legally an adult? 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, JeffersLos said:

I'm not Thai. 

Can a non-Thai be the land and property's legal guardian until the child owner is legally an adult? 

Yes, Guardians position has no restrictions on nationality, but it is supposed to be my mutual consent of both parents, and can't be rescinded except by the death of the current guardian.

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

At what age does a Thai child legally become an adult, is it 18 or 20 years old?

 

20.

[blackcab]

A post containing factually incorrect information has been removed.

[Kenny202]

33 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Yes, Guardians position has no restrictions on nationality, but it is supposed to be my mutual consent of both parents, and can't be rescinded except by the death of the current guardian.

And therein lies the problem. I am sure they have designed these rules so it doesn't become a loop hole for foreign property ownership but I am guessing most here would want to put a property in the child's name to protect the asset from spouse or ex. She can't sell or gamble the property away but I am guessing she can live their and kick you out, or take custody of the child and do the same

[khunPer]

23 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

Is it  possible to get a Usufuct on the property that is owned by a Thai child?

Normally not.

 

Normally you should have the usufruct servitude, and any other servitudes, in place before transferring the property to a minor's name. You could eventually agree with seller to have a usufruct registered, and thereafter transfer the property to a Thai minor's name under guardian.

 

You should also check the possibility of "habitation right", you can read more HERE.

Quote

HABITATION LAWS IN THAILAND

The grantee of the right of habitation does not pay rent to the grantor. If there is rental payment made, the matter becomes a tenancy. A right of habitation may be created for either a specific period of time or for the lifetime of the grantee. In case the rights are granted for a specific time period, the law states that such a period may not exceed 30 years; if a longer period is fixed, it shall be enforceable for only 30 years. The grant may be renewed for a period not exceeding 30 years from the time of renewal. Lastly, the right of habitation is not transferable by way of inheritance.

 

[JeffersLos]

Thanks.

 

19 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

No. You cannot give a minor child an obligation in this way. The land office will not process a sale or a deed of gift to a minor child if the land is encumbered with a usufruct.

 

44 minutes ago, khunPer said:

 

Normally you should have the usufruct servitude, and any other servitudes, in place before transferring the property to a minor's name. You could eventually agree with seller to have a usufruct registered, and thereafter transfer the property to a Thai minor's name under guardian.

 

 

 

These 2 posts give conflicting information.

 

One says that it's not possible to transfer property with a Usufruct to a Thai minor, one says that it is. 

 

 

If it is possible, it is a very good solution, if the seller agrees to the Usufruct being placed on the property in the foreigner's name on one day, then the next day the property is transfered to the Thai minor. 

[JeffersLos]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Yes, Guardians position has no restrictions on nationality, but it is supposed to be my mutual consent of both parents, and can't be rescinded except by the death of the current guardian.

 

That would be perfect. I didn't know that the legal guardian of the child's property could be a foreigner.

 

Both parents agreeing that the foreigner is the legal guardian isn't an issue, if it can be done that way.

[Kenny202]

I think its like going to the transport office here, or immigration. No right or wrong answers. Depends on the land office and what they are prepared to accept. In my experience, unless you know someone at these govt places, they will go to all lengths to get out of doing anything, even when you are doing something within the letter of the law. If they don't understand it or aren't sure they wont check, they just say no. And then it becomes a big smarty pants competition that you can't win without said person losing face....and that will never happen. Having a Thai lawyer with you can be helpful. Usually only a couple of thousand baht to get one to do something like that if he thinks you can do it. I was told we couldn't register some papers at our local Amphur office, had to be in the Childs Tabien baan province. Solicitor put them straight pretty quick 

[blackcab]

@JeffersLos Have a chat with your local Land Office and see what they can do for you.

 

Please keep this thread updated if possible at it will certainly help others in the future.

[bbabythai]

On 4/18/2021 at 11:04 PM, Kenny202 said:

Its a shame. Id love to buy a place in my sons name, but all it would do is give his mother an incentive to come and get him after abandoning him 5 years ago. Not a bad idea on the transfer. May just work but you'd have to really trust the person you initially signed it over too. I was advised by my lawyer the usefruct on a childs property was doable providing you could get a lands office to agree to it. Could probably be done if u were in the know

why cant you put it in your sons name and then register a 30 yr lease at the land office and pay the tax for the 30 yrs. No one can then sell it if theres a lease on it. No one would want that

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, bbabythai said:

why cant you put it in your sons name and then register a 30 yr lease at the land office and pay the tax for the 30 yrs. No one can then sell it if theres a lease on it. No one would want that

Because a lease can't be longer than 3 years.

A usufuct could be 30 years, but according to blackcab's first answer that's not possible in this case.

[baansgr]

Just remember, a property held in the child's name...if your relationship goes South, the Mother still has every right to stay there and in fact can move the whole tribe in to make it so unbearable for you to stay there...Land ownership is for Thais only that's it.

[Kenny202]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:51 PM, blackcab said:

@JeffersLos Have a chat with your local Land Office and see what they can do for you.

 

Please keep this thread updated if possible at it will certainly help others in the future.

If you are serious I think talking with you lawyer is the first step. If he thinks legally it is possible, take him with you to the lands office and see if you can convince them or what their take on it is. Ultimately it will be up to them and you probably have no choice other than to go to the Lands office in the area the home / land is situated. 

 

It was suggested to me once by a lawyer that in the case of a Thai wife, an alternative to doing a usefruct you could be simply put the home in your wife's name and you hold a mortgage on the land as the lender. You structure it so there are no payments necessary but you have the right at any time to either demand full payment of the debt or the right to sell the property. First time I have ever heard of that one before or since now but again something to discuss with a lawyer. Even though you would be the mortgagee and would have the rights to sell, I still couldn't see how you could stop the owner  (wife) living there should you have a problem. You certainly wouldn't be able to mortgage the land in a minors name. I actually wanted to do a usefruct in conjunction with a mortgage but they said that wasn't possible. 

 

One other thing to bare in  mind, whatever you do is make sure the property will actually be saleable again should you need to get rid of it. A nice home in the middle of a village somewhere for example. Will you really want to live there if you split with your wife? Would it be actually possible to sell it? In an estate in the city somewhere would be a much better option and of course investment