THE WEEK THAT WAS The year long Phony War is over - unless you’re a pandemic denier

jvs · April 25, 2021

1 minute ago, johnnybangkok said:

For gods sake IT'S NOT THE FLU. If we try and 'accept and live with it' like the flu, millions more will die.

How many times does this have to be discussed? It's 14 months and you still are uneducated. It has to be willfully uneducated by now as there really is no excuse..

This is more or less the essence of this whole topic.

All the information is there!!!You just have to find the truth,for some people not so easy.

If you believe everything your idol says you are in deep trouble.

Freedom of speech,where do you draw the line?

If you can prove it is a lie?

How about religion?

All you can hope for is that most people have enough brains to be able to detect lies.

There is a problem in itself what i may consider a lie some one else may believe as gospel.

NancyL · April 25, 2021

Let's not forget the poor helpless victims of Covid lies, conspiracy theories and other wingnuts ideas. As I said in my earlier post, let's have more news about what really matters -- the poor animals of Thailand!

https://time.com/5793363/china-coronavirus-covid19-abandoned-pets-wuhan/

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/social-affairs/pets-voiceless-victims-covid-19-crisis

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3078492/coronavirus-dont-abandon-your-cat-because-unproven-scientific

johnnybangkok · April 25, 2021

7 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

Follow the money.

Indeed few are seen to be promoting immune system improvement and health improvement. Many of those doctors who do, find that their websites are shut down. That is part of the argument against the (end of) free speech opinion expressed by the OP.

Of course there are ways that we all can improve our immune system and health and you have mentioned some of them. Unfortunately all too often anyone who suggests that we should all be doing so is called a covid denier or conspiracy theorist or some such nonsense. The only accepted mantra now is: "Noone is safe unless everyone is safe". We have a new 'logic' that states that we need to vaccinate 7.8 billion people for a virus with a 99.95% median survival rate in under 70 year olds.

And to keep on vaccinating them. Naked profiteering. Follow the money.

Reading these threads on TV and talking with friends all over the world about their reaction to Covid, I have noticed that it is the over 70's with pre-existing medical conditions who are at the forefront - yelling the loudest - about the need for a magic pill (aka vaccine). They are the ones that express terror. They are the ones who above all others should be concentrating on improving their underlying health right now. And especially those in Thailand who may have to wait a very long time until that magic remedy is available.

Absolute drivel.

Never has herd immunity (the only way out of this pandemic) ever been acheived without a vacine. That's ever, as in the whole history of mankind.

And who is putting down leading a healthier lifestyle that generally improves your ability to fight off this virus? We all know it's adversely affects those with pre-existing conditions, the obese and the elderly so why would anyone 'shut down' doctors who promote being healthy? Doctors have been promoting a healthier lifestyle for decades without being shut down so I call BS on this statement and your inferance that it's all about Big Pharma making money. This is why you get called a 'covid denier or conspiracy theorist', not because of anything else.

Britman Free · April 25, 2021

6 minutes ago, Susco said:

Take your pick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_due_to_COVID-19

Just went through it. Zero household names.

Have you heard of any of those in that list before?

If you recognise any of those names feel free to share an example ????

Joinaman · April 25, 2021

5 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

For gods sake IT'S NOT THE FLU. If we try and 'accept and live with it' like the flu, millions more will die.

How many times does this have to be discussed? It's 14 months and you still are uneducated. It has to be willfully uneducated by now as there really is no excuse..

what part did you not understand ?

it too difficult for you to read properly ? perhaps you should look to your education before calling out others

We have had the flu virus for many many years and each year have many many deaths, yet we accept them

The covid will not go away, like the flu, it will always be here and will kill people each year, for which we must also accept them

both are viruses, and both kill, but with the vaccines, covid deaths will be greatly reduced, just like in developed countries with the flu vaccines

Fat is a type of crazy · April 25, 2021

18 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

Follow the money.

Indeed few are seen to be promoting immune system improvement and health improvement. Many of those doctors who do, find that their websites are shut down. That is part of the argument against the (end of) free speech opinion expressed by the OP.

Of course there are ways that we all can improve our immune system and health and you have mentioned some of them. Unfortunately all too often anyone who suggests that we should all be doing so is called a covid denier or conspiracy theorist or some such nonsense. The only accepted mantra now is: "Noone is safe unless everyone is safe". We have a new 'logic' that states that we need to vaccinate 7.8 billion people for a virus with a 99.95% median survival rate in under 70 year olds.

And to keep on vaccinating them. Naked profiteering. Follow the money.

Reading these threads on TV and talking with friends all over the world about their reaction to Covid, I have noticed that it is the over 70's with pre-existing medical conditions who are at the forefront - yelling the loudest - about the need for a magic pill (aka vaccine). They are the ones that express terror. They are the ones who above all others should be concentrating on improving their underlying health right now. And especially those in Thailand who may have to wait a very long time until that magic remedy is available.

I doubt strongly that a doctor suggesting that good health and diet could lower the risks from getting covid would be shut down. I watch Bill Maher - he's not a doctor but one of his key messages has been that a big part of the strategy in America should have been to get people fitter and thinner - he wasn't shut down.

It could be that these doctor's are saying that those factors are enough and vaccines aren't necessary or promoting a particular vitamin based on little or no evidence. If you have examples of doctors shut down, for the sole reason of promoting good health and a strong immune system to combat effects of covid, it would be interesting to see them.

Susco · April 25, 2021

1 minute ago, Britman Free said:

Just went through it. Zero household names.

Have you heard of any of those in that list before?

If you recognise any of those names feel free to share an example ????

I don't think you went through a list of hundreds of names, otherwise you would have seen my edit.

Now tell me again that you haven't heard of any of these,.

https://www.businessinsider.com/high-profile-people-who-have-died-coronavirus-related-illness-so-far-2020

VBF · April 25, 2021

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I can see where you're coming from, however I do believe that with freedom of speech comes responsibility.

For example if I were to post that I have a cure for the virus and that involves putting a plastic bag over your head and tying it round your neck for 20 minutes and you will not be affected by the virus any more (in fact you will die). Then that could be construed as being allowed because of freedom of speech?

I will not accept that one can defend someone's right to tell blatant lies/untruths, some of which may well end in a person's death.

Opinions are one thing, damaging, even life-threatening, lies and untruths deserve to be curtailed and/or punished.

To answer your points in order:

Regarding posting spurious "cures": It is up to those who read what you posted to react appropriately - in this case look at it and say "that's rubbish, ignore it", or "I'll try that" and then they die...but in all cases to consider the source. If they're so stupid as to believe it not having first researched who posted it - tough! There is a video going around by a so-called "doctor" where this "doctor" asserts that hand sanitiser is lethal! What!!!!!! Well it would be if you drank it maybe - I just see him as a "quack" and ignore him.

Telling blatant lies/untruths: Again up to the reader to analyse the content and make a decision as to whether to believe or not.

Dangerous opinions: are just that - opinions. We all have them and, as we know some stink more than others!

You said "with freedom of speech comes responsibility" - IMO there is also a responsibility on the part of the reader to be critical and question everything they read and if necessary, look for alternative sources.

Bim Smith · April 25, 2021

Who write this piece of propaganda. Denier with all its holocaust conations. They shut the economy for 140 deaths as tragic as they are but not raised one eyebrow at over 20 thousand deaths on the roads and NOT once did they suggest banning cars. Here is one way to end this pandemic. Ask the Thai government how many magnifying cycles they are using on the PCR test to show true or dead infection. Ask them why they allowed the UK variant in the country by allowing untested diplomats in the country and treating them to nights out at the Krystal bar in Bangkok with 100 thousand BAHT a night hookers that left a third of government ministers testing positive. It's not about about being a denier in anything it's about time we got the truth and some perspective.

rumak · April 25, 2021

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I'm more of a 'don't really care' but wish the international borders were open, and cheap air transport was still available.

I think there are way WAY more people who "don't really care" than most people think.

The 24/7 covid media bombardment is of course scaring a large number of Thai children

( ages up to 80 ) and amazingly lots of species Farangatan as well.

The "fact" that soooo many of the world population is in extremely poor health, largely due to very poor diets (with ads also 24/7 ) , a health system that does not try to prevent but rather dishes out unhealthy chemicals for every symptom, and even ads have given up on fat people, instead now using them in commercials. A case of " if you can't change them, join them?" WHY is there no CAMPAIGN to eradicate unhealthy lifestyles ?? Put these people under lock and key ?

On the playground today there were hundreds of people, maskless, running and playing as if their lives depended on it. Maybe they are right ? I have not heard of one of the many regulars that go there to enjoy being healthy having come down with the bid C.

Also, it is nice to go and enjoy a place where no one is telling people that they are putting others at risk. Everyone is there by their free will. I hope it remains free...........

canthai55 · April 25, 2021

All this talk about curbing Free Speech - a Very Slippery Slope

And people actually believe what the mainstream media reports ?

Yet when media reports something which you disagree with all I hear are Screams of "Liar, Fake News, Conspiracy Theorists !"

Must be nice to have all the answers.

Reminds me of the Joke - "HI - I'm from the Government and I'm Here to Help You"

VBF · April 25, 2021

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I get your point, i hate banning things too. However take the holocaust deniers. Or like i said to someone else if i call you a pedophile (its my opinion as an example) and i post stuff about it ect ect. What i mean is more that the freedom of speech has its limits. Problem is defining those limits. I just don't believe that the freedom of speech has no limits. The moment it damages people then its a problem.

Now that freedom of speech is damaging vaccination efforts and obeying the rules. But again not allowing is dangerous too because next time they MIGHT be right. There should always be a way expose stuff. But that has its downsides too.

But what i post i posted with in the back of my head that a true ban or censorship would never work. There are always ways around this. I don't really think it could be done.

As I've said in response to @xylophone it's up to the reader to always "consider the source". I f I post that the Holocaust or Covid are false (i.e. I become a denier) then clearly I as a source am totally unreliable and should be ignored.

I have 2 friends who are anti-vaxers partly from reading this nonsense - whatever I say they won't be moved. I've tried my hardest to dissuade them to no avail.

Up to them - sad but there it is - I hope they stay well as they are friends but they're adults making adult decisions which is and should remain their right - simple as that.

Sorry if i sound dogmatic, but the thought of censorship scares me more than Covid amplified by articles like this one

https://theconversation.com/press-freedom-how-governments-are-using-covid-as-an-excuse-to-crack-down-on-the-publics-right-to-know-159298

Grusa · April 25, 2021

6 hours ago, papa al said:

Screw free speech.

Listen to the masters.

Listen to the ~~masters~~ hamsters.

johnnybangkok · April 25, 2021

8 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

what part did you not understand ?

it too difficult for you to read properly ? perhaps you should look to your education before calling out others

We have had the flu virus for many many years and each year have many many deaths, yet we accept them

The covid will not go away, like the flu, it will always be here and will kill people each year, for which we must also accept them

both are viruses, and both kill, but with the vaccines, covid deaths will be greatly reduced, just like in developed countries with the flu vaccines

You are conflating two very different viruses as if they are the same and applying the same ill thought out logic with one as you are the other.

The ONLY reason flu kills so many people each year is there is still a relatively low uptake of the vacine each year. In America for example, only about half the people who should be getting a jab actually get a jab

https://www.valuepenguin.com/coronavirus-influenza-vaccines. It is similar figures in many western countrries and a great deal less everywhere else.

If the uptake was greater, the infections and deaths would be lower. We don't accept this, but because the numbers are still relatively low and freedom of choice unfortunately overides sensibilities, it doesn't get the same headlines.

Covid on the other hand is much more transmissable and much, much more deadly. This idea that they are similar and 'what's all the fuss about, we have flu each year and we live with that' is spurious, unhelpful and often the same argument as covid deniers or anti-vaxxers use. You are ceratinly not the latter but your comparisons diminish the severity of Covid and that is neither accurate nor helpful.

That's the part that you need to understand.

BritManToo · April 25, 2021

12 minutes ago, VBF said:

whatever I say they won't be moved. I've tried my hardest to dissuade them to no avail.

Why would you bother?

And why would they listen to you?

xylophone · April 25, 2021

16 minutes ago, VBF said:

I f I post that the Holocaust or Covid are false (i.e. I become a denier) then clearly I as a source am totally unreliable and should be ignored.

You state that, "then clearly as a source I am totally unreliable and should be ignored". But that is the problem, how does one decide whether you are totally unreliable and should be ignored, or not?

That's my point, there are people out there who are unable to "decide" whether you are totally unreliable or not, especially if you were to put some letters behind your name and profess to be a "specialist", so it is not clear to a lot of these people, nor is it clear to a lot of those with average to low intelligence.

We cannot protect everybody who wishes to believe in that which they hear or read, but we can certainly go a long way towards ensuring that what appears in front of their eyes, or they hear, is factual.

jerolamo · April 25, 2021

you wrote this... (real, you did it):

"

It’s time not just to rid social media of such people but for governments to look at making it a crime to say such things, a bit like some nations have laws to rein in Holocaust deniers.

Pandemic and vaccine deniers need at the very least to be called out at every opportunity and possibly banned and prosecuted.

For them the Phony War worldwide continues despite all the evidence to the contrary. Yet they are the phonies. As well as the people who click “like” on their drivel."

It is terrible to, also in 2021, read this again.

Before you was skeptic, so it was ok... but now you are convinced, so now you can think the other one who are not should be prosecuted ! You are, then, a poor person.

Now even if we recognize a kind of little pandemic situation (and even because we recognize also that efforts made to add reanimation beds are very poor, close to zero), if we compare to other pandemic number situation to be, we still can not criticize choices made in the world by the most tragedic decisions made who increase poverty and deny the need to work for million of people to win a little right for life.

Suicide in Thailand do increase to 22%, poverty increase a lot and die because of that will be (if not is already) upper than die because of COVID infection cases, who, most probably by fact, target older and low power ones in the population (all around the world, death increase a lot after 65 years old, and is still very little under). So what is the idea ? to save the older and condemn the younger to a poor life ? A life where rich will be powerfull more and where they will be slave ?

Let me tell you that my older are much more courageous than you are and live the WW2 really, and was also the one to save any there, one of my own die in this war in the fight too. And they do not want that, because of a quick transmit corona-virus, we condemn the populations to poverty and to be slave to save the older (older who, for some of them as you, had lived the best of humanity world for zero sacrifice of yourself and who want now, as always: more ! and again more ! and ask the other to sacrifice there life to you... again and again)... it is a shame.

you are also ready to "prosecute" them if they "deny" what, in fact, you are trusting a lot... NOW.

Because you are in a kind of fear.

Surely you loose some of your friends because of this pandemic (as little as it is, yes, it is a pandemic, and because of the very old population in the world, it should have more and more pandemic... so what is really the problem there ?). Kind of virus is far to be yellow fever one or Malaria or Leptospirosis or black flue... very far to be as dangerous as Ebola is (80% of death rate, much mlore if no treatment as they do in some country for COVID...), very far ! But still, for older and low powered people (as diabetic who eat a lot of sugar, the one who are imacted by chemicals, the other survive because of the medic treatment very good and who would not have a life if not, etc... also alcoholic and some more there who, in fact, survive due to medical level...) all of these one and very older are the target of any virus, not only the COVID... so what ? now the idea is to lockdown the other who build the world ? The other without who you would not have anything ?

Are you sure ?

(and sure, to shut them out the other who told you that reality in your scary face).

Please, don't be this sad little one, i think you was too much luckyb for free, and that destruct your courage (you maybe never had or never had in fact).

KiiGiam · April 25, 2021

It seems the consensus here is that the virus is very real and yet we cannot silence dissent. I agree on both counts.

One would hope that losing a close family member from SARS-CoV-2 might open some eyes, but in America we have seen people still denying it while they themselves breathe their last because of the virus. And I don't want to make any smug remark about "som nam naa!" because their actions impact us all.

BostonRob2 · April 25, 2021

1 hour ago, rioD said:

Who writes this sheepish nonsense !

Rooster.....the RAM.

VBF · April 25, 2021

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Why would you bother?

And why would they listen to you?

1 - Because they're friends and i care for their well-being

2 - I hope because we've been friends for a long time: I respect their opinions and I hope the reverse is true.

I can only offer them my opinions - as i said earlier it's up to them after that.

Would you not wish to help friends if you considered they may be doing themselves a disservice by their actions?

jimbob123 · April 25, 2021

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Diddo

When you are unable to avoid spelling mistakes in a one word post then it's time to stop posting.

jerolamo · April 25, 2021

2 minutes ago, xylophone said:

You state that, "then clearly as a source I am totally unreliable and should be ignored". But that is the problem, how does one decide whether you are totally unreliable and should be ignored, or not?

That's my point, there are people out there who are unable to "decide" whether you are totally unreliable or not, especially if you were to put some letters behind your name and profess to be a "specialist", so it is not clear to a lot of these people, nor is it clear to a lot of those with average to low intelligence.

We cannot protect everybody who wishes to believe in that which they hear or read, but we can certainly go a long way towards ensuring that what appears in front of their eyes, or they hear, is factual.

Sure.

Facts are also that top level world specialist (around genetic but also vaccination in Europe; but also epidemiologist and viorologist) who claim that there is a problem with decisions around the vaccination task are banned. One of them loose his position of chief in an hospital in my country... proof that lobbyists are very influent and too close to the power administration. It is a kind of old biblical story to said that: "to have the merchands in the temple is a huge problem." And that's it right now.

So definitely there is some people who have the power to censored, not only in the forum for messages (and sometimes out of the forum law because af kind of power abuse that little humans know to practice when they have a little power to act with), but also in countries.

Also, as you can try to look at as facts is that even when a stoler in the street act in front of everybody in day time, police coming and ask questions (same questions at anybody want to answer), and there is many different answer ! They all see the same things, but each of them are strictly sure of what they are talking about... as you are. But look at it as it is... they all (as you and me) have there own filter and get the information they see and hear as they can (as you and me, you are not different and i am not different on that, even if you think you are the best... that make you closer than anybody else other than ever).

That is a real fact you seems to not consider when you wrote that: "in front of their eyes".

When you buy a red car, suddenly, you start to see all the red cars around that you never see so much before... that is a fact and a proof that you amplify things as human does usualy, and as long as you miss-understand this point, you are unable to speak seriously about what facts can be.

VBF · April 25, 2021

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

You state that, "then clearly as a source I am totally unreliable and should be ignored". But that is the problem, how does one decide whether you are totally unreliable and should be ignored, or not?

That's my point, there are people out there who are unable to "decide" whether you are totally unreliable or not, especially if you were to put some letters behind your name and profess to be a "specialist", so it is not clear to a lot of these people, nor is it clear to a lot of those with average to low intelligence.

We cannot protect everybody who wishes to believe in that which they hear or read, but we can certainly go a long way towards ensuring that what appears in front of their eyes, or they hear, is factual.

But that's why I emphasised "consider the source" One should check everything one reads until one knows and respects the source.

Here's an example:

I ask a visa question here on TVF. You and 6 other people I don't know answer it with varying answers. I consider them all because i don't know who is reliable.... Along comes UbonJoe with an answer - that's the one I go by because I have come to respect his knowledge on the subject and his reliability.

And to protect those who cannot be bothered to do their further research, and those of "average to low intelligence" you think it right to deny everyone the opportunity to make their own decisions?

I (respectfully) disagree with you.

Bradmeister · April 25, 2021

6 hours ago, upu2 said:

The virus is real. However cases are being considered as hospitalisations and deaths which they are not. You can have the virus feel a bit under the weather for a while and then feel fine. The people who are at risk are those who are obese or have underlaying health problems.

Absolutely incorrect.

Plenty of people are being hospitalized in Intensive care units for weeks with 50/50 chances of survival.

These people are not obese or have underlying health problems....

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