Dancing out of COVID and into debt

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

This isn't rocket science. 

 

Yes, a certain number of people die every day, but you seem unfamiliar with the concept of excess mortality. That's the term for deaths over and above the average. Excess mortality is bad. Governments try to keep that number down. Bad governments fail to do so. 

 

Most people think that keeping others alive is a good thing. 

 

So just how many "excess" deaths has covid caused? I know that 3 million have been "labelled" as covid deaths, but a significant proportion of those would have died without being infected with covid. The problem is that for both of us, we can never be sure that the figures are accurate. I respect your opinion on this matter but you shouldn't trust any of the stories and figures that are being put out about this virus. It should be your duty to question what is going on rather than blindly believing the absolute guff that you are being spoon-fed.

[phukettrader]

4 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

This isn't rocket science. 

 

Yes, a certain number of people die every day, but you seem unfamiliar with the concept of excess mortality. That's the term for deaths over and above the average. Excess mortality is bad. Governments try to keep that number down. Bad governments fail to do so. 

 

Most people think that keeping others alive is a good thing. 

Where is the excess mortility? In the case of the UK, for 2020 according to the governments' ONS, the only time this happened was around the time they kicked all the old people out of hospitals into care homes and denied them any sort of medical care.

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, phukettrader said:

Where is the excess mortility?  

Precisely. Where is this excess mortality? Look at the ONS figures. It's all a load of rubbish.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

So just how many "excess" deaths has covid caused? I know that 3 million have been "labelled" as covid deaths, but a significant proportion of those would have died without being infected with covid. The problem is that for both of us, we can never be sure that the figures are accurate. I respect your opinion on this matter but you shouldn't trust any of the stories and figures that are being put out about this virus. It should be your duty to question what is going on rather than blindly believing the absolute guff that you are being spoon-fed.

Nobody is ever going to convince you. Just keep your tin foil hat on and live in your own lil world. Its madness to think that countries would voluntarily destroy their economy. This is just the least worst of a lot of bad alternatives. Nothing good about this but the alternative is worse. A lot smarter people then you have seen this and acted.

 

Nobody wants to destroy an economy if there is a better alternative. As for stats of India and Brazil, these are just official numbers, the real numbers are far higher. They did an scientific study in a the most populous province in Brazil. The numbers were 100% worse then really reported. (im sure you wont believe that study either)

 

 

[BenDeCosta]

3 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Your conspiracy theories are making you look foolish. 

 

Actually Danderman, I am very good at making myself look foolish. I am just playing devil's advocate here and trying to get some debate on the matter. It's a shame that robblok is trying to offend me, he won't be able to. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect you and your opinions also.

Edited May 2, 2021 by BenDeCosta

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

You do realise that an excess of deaths in the USA of 600,000 people is 0.18%, right? It's not statistically significant.

So now you are saying that all those people died from Covid-19 but they are not significant. 

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

So now you are saying that all those people died from Covid-19 but they are not significant. 

 

Not statistically significant, yes.  

[Danderman123]

13 minutes ago, phukettrader said:

They are also rolling-up the numbers from the start of the pandemic scamdemic, so the number of deaths include those from two normal flu seasons, rather than one, making it sound even more scary.

 

No, influenza is not being misdiagnosed as COVID-19. Besides, the mortality rate from Covid-19 is much higher than the flu. 

 

All you guys who flunked science think you know more than the physicians. 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

Not statistically significant, yes.  

Wrong. 

 

You don't understand statistics. How much percent was excess mortality up in your country in 2020?

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

You don't understand statistics. How much percent was excess mortality up in your country in 2020?

No need to be rude.  

[Justgrazing]

7 hours ago, Jonathan Fairfield said:

“I may not have COVID-19 but I’m going to be blacklisted by the National Credit Bureau”.

 

 

But you know it's bad when the water buffalo start sending emails asking you to help sick bargirls .. 

I've had to barbwire my inbox lately .. 

[BenDeCosta]

Danderman, you know that you can have a debate without being rude? You're not a lefty by any chance are you?

[KhaoNiaw]

23 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

First of all, many countries are labeling people as having died from covid, when in fact they died with it.

 

Could you explain the structure of a death certificate and the process of how it's completed in the country you're from? How many have you completed or supervised?

Edited May 2, 2021 by KhaoNiaw

[BenDeCosta]

Just now, KhaoNiaw said:

 

Could you explain the structure of a death certificate and the process of how it's completed in the country you're from from? How many have you completed or supervised?

 

So I need to have personally overseen a person's death and the filling in of their death certificate before thinking and suggesting that there is something suspicious going on? Are you a lefty by any chance?

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

Actually Danderman, I am very good at making myself look foolish. I am just playing devil's advocate here and trying to get some debate on the matter. It's a shame that robblok is trying to offend me, he won't be able to. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect you and your opinions also.

Yes you have proven to be really good at looking foolish. Yes i offend you i intended too. That is the only way to deal with deniers. The damage they do is so bad that they don't deserve respect. 

 

Strange that those deniers that did get covid changed their tune. 

 

Anyway I will not treat the deniers with any respect because they don't respect science. They live in their own lil world. They are like religious nuts can't convince them unless they get the disease and get it badly. Just like the Dutch lady Karma is a bitch. So vocal against all the measures. When asked about her opinion when she got out of the hosptial she said she had no comment and has not commented on the rules again.

 

I don't get it how people think that governments are happy to have these rules. Debts rises people will not like the government and they would probably lose in elections. So why would any government do these things if not absolutely necessary. The IQ of the average scientist and government leader is far higher then the IQ of the average Thaivisa poster.

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes you have proven to be really good at looking foolish. Yes i offend you i intended too. That is the only way to deal with deniers. The damage they do is so bad that they don't deserve respect. 

 

Strange that those deniers that did get covid changed their tune. 

 

Anyway I will not treat the deniers with any respect because they don't respect science. They live in their own lil world. They are like religious nuts can't convince them unless they get the disease and get it badly. Just like the Dutch lady Karma is a bitch. So vocal against all the measures. When asked about her opinion when she got out of the hosptial she said she had no comment and has not commented on the rules again.

 

I don't get it how people think that governments are happy to have these rules. Debts rises people will not like the government and they would probably lose in elections. So why would any government do these things if not absolutely necessary. The IQ of the average scientist and government leader is far higher then the IQ of the average Thaivisa poster.

 

You have completely misunderstood me. I am not a denier of anything, I am just trying to create some debate. Go back and read what I have posted, there is no need for rudeness or personal attacks. By the way, I am a fully-qualified scientist with a first-class masters degree, but unfortunately I also use TVF.

Edited May 2, 2021 by BenDeCosta

[KhaoNiaw]

Just now, BenDeCosta said:

 

So I need to have personally overseen a person's death and the filling in of their death certificate before thinking and suggesting that there is something suspicious going on? Are you a lefty by any chance?

 

No you don't. But if you don't know what one looks like or the process of how one is completed, you're talking about something of which you know nothing. And there are medical professionals who can explain it very clearly  because they've done hundreds of them - and they don't agree with what you're saying. 

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

 

No you don't. But if you don't know what one looks like or the process of how one is completed, you're talking about something of which you know nothing. And there are medical professionals who can explain it very clearly  because they've done hundreds of them - and they don't agree with what you're saying. 

 

I have worked in more than a dozen hospitals and have many friends who are doctors, radiographers, occupational therapists, nurses, pharmacists, you name it. You're trying to paint me as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to suit your agenda, but it is not the case. I am NOT asking you to agree with me, if you don't like what I say, ignore it.

[KhaoNiaw]

Just now, BenDeCosta said:

 

I have worked in more than a dozen hospitals and have many friends who are doctors, radiographers, occupational therapists, nurses, pharmacists, you name it. You're trying to paint me as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to suit your agenda, but it is not the case. I am NOT asking you to agree with me, if you don't like what I say, ignore it.

 

If calling someone out on the 'with Covid' and 'from Covid' claim is an agenda then fine.  Why do I have to ignore it?  Nothing wrong with calling out incorrect information. I don't know where you're from. Maybe you're from somewhere where a death certificate is a simple matter of writing down a single cause. That's not the case in the UK for example and it's really not difficult to find out the weakness of the 'with Covid' / 'from Covid' agenda.

[ChipButty]

A condo next door but one to ours has had a court order slapped on their door it's going to get worse

[robblok]

I don't get it why people think all opinions should count. We got flat earthers, holocausts deniers. Why should stupid opinions count ?

 

Sure freedom of speech is nice but some people have more credibility then others. Scientists for instance especially if a large group of them agrees. Its not often you have scientists like Copernicus who was right when all others were wrong. Its extremely rare.

 

Now all of a sudden the average Thaivisa user knows better then leading scientists. ????

[Danderman123]

11 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

 

Could you explain the structure of a death certificate and the process of how it's completed in the country you're from? How many have you completed or supervised?

Happy to.

 

In most jurisdictions, the county coroner handles death certificates. The coroner is independent of hospitals, and has no financial interest in the proceedings. They will look at PCR testing, pre-existing conditions (co-morbitities) and the hospital records to determine whether the patient died from an acute condition caused by the virus, or whether any chronic conditions suddenly became acute. Their interest in making the best determination is in the interest of understanding the extent of the epidemic, in this case, or, in normal conditions, to make sure that there isn't something unusual going around.

 

For mass numbers of Covid deaths to be misdiagnosed, there would have to be motivation for coroners to either all screw up simultaneously, or the existence of the largest conspiracy in the history of mankind.

 

As far as hospitals are concerned, the Deniers claims that they misdiagnose as Covid for financial gain, ignoring that hospitals don't diagnose anybody. More to the point, once a patient is diagnosed by an attending physician as Covid-19 positive, the hospital has to provide a level of care consistent with the diagnosis. That means additional nursing, isolation, and many other expensive services that would cut into any financial gain. You may think that a hospital wants to upsell the insurance companies or the government, but they run the risk of penalties from audits from either body. And the physician may lose their license to practice if they are caught misdiagnosing patients.

 

Of course, politicians want to minimize Covid-19 numbers, for obvious reasons, but they have no control over this process.

 

What the excess mortality numbers tell us is that Covid-19 deaths are undercounted, due to people being rude and dying before they can make it to the hospital. When a Covid victim has not been tested, a medical examiner may simply declare they died of a symptom such as a heart attack. What happens is, in many jurisdictions, is that further testing on blood samples is conducted down the road, so that Covid-19 may be listed later as the cause of death.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

57 minutes ago, phukettrader said:

To put India into context, although tragicaly around 2,000 people are current dying per day with the virus (not necessarily of it), around 28,000 people normally die every day in that country from any cause. So only around 7% of total deaths are attributed to the virus.

You could not be more wrong even if you tried.

 

“It’s a complete massacre of data,” said Bhramar Mukherjee, an epidemiologist at the University of Michigan who has been following India closely. “From all the modeling we’ve done, we believe the true number of deaths is two to five times what is being reported.”

At one of the large cremation grounds in Ahmedabad, a city in the western Indian state of Gujarat, bright orange fires light up the night sky, burning 24 hours a day, like an industrial plant that never shuts down. Suresh Bhai, a worker there, said he had never seen such a never-ending assembly line of death.

But he has not been writing down the cause of death as Covid-19 on the thin paper slips that he hands over to the mournful families, even though the number of dead is surging along with the virus.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed.  Please remember this topic is about:

 

Dancing out of COVID and into debt
 

The discussion is becoming rather uncivil, please remember this when posting when posting:

 

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

 

 

This topic is not about whether or not a member is a scientist. 

[Danderman123]

9 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

A condo next door but one to ours has had a court order slapped on their door it's going to get worse

What is the court order?

 

Where is the condo?

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

I respect the opinions of flat-earthers because I want to live in a world where people can believe what they want without being persecuted. If that's their belief, then that's up to them, you do not have the power to try and control what they think.

 

It's not for others to force their beliefs on people and even to be rude because they don't have the same opinion.

 

There is no need for rudeness because you have a different opinion to someone, but this seems to be a trait of people who hold generally left-wing views.

Unlike you i don't respect stupidity. I certainly don't have the power to control what people think. But i can show my disdain from people with such strange and laughable opinions.

 

Its not a question of beliefs its a question of facts. Holocaust deniers ? Flat earthers ... i mean facts are facts. If your that stupid to not believe in facts and science (like the covid deniers) then what respect do you deserve.

 

I won't physically attack anyone but i won't treat their opinion as valid either. 

 

I am actually really right wing, run my own business think governments should not be involved too much. Just make trade work and make sure people can work and there is good infrastructure. 

 

Anyway your opinions are laughable. The only thing you got going for you is that you think free speech is good. I don't think its bad, just think that not everyone has the same credibility. I would trust leading scientists (especially if there is consensus) over Thaivisa posters like you. 

 

I also think that people who work in certain fields often know things better then outsiders. I believe in knowledge and intelligence. I don't believe the tinfoil hat people. 

 

Sorry but you have no credibility. 

[ChipButty]

5 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

What is the court order?

 

Where is the condo?

 

In Phuket a bank repro 

[ChipButty]

This thread started off ok but as usual it goes down the pan

[holy cow cm]

Yeah, gonna be a lot more of these little dances. As Britmantoo said, there were some girls in quarantine bored stiff in little tight skimpy short shorts doing a sort of a twerk pelvis thrust and they were harshly reprimanded for it a nd made to apologize. Ofcourse they had to make the girls in the attire fuzzy-blurred on the tv. Such nonsense.. Funny, but then after that I think the same girls fully clothed in pajamas did a little jig on video. Only saw it the once so that probably got censored too. Silly government trying to act moralistic but the real truth they are fully the opposite. I would gather after the bars and then country opens, there will be a lot of girls dancing to try to get out of debt.

[Rimmer]

Argumentative misleading and bickering troll posts have been removed also replies