What gas is in those green bottles used for cooking?

[Daffy D]

So my garden weed killer flame thrower arrived today.

 

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/welding-toolspropanekille-rk-illbutan-e-i1691250749-s4768858505.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.1.2f0a14122dwO8D&search=1

 

Says it needs Propane gas, but nobody round here seems to know there are different gasses, so at a bit of a loss as wat to use.

 

Is cooking gas Propane and /or will it work with my flame thrower?

 

Help  

 

Or should I just connect it to the cooking cylinder and send the wife to the end of the garden to try it out  

 

[Crossy]

"Cooking gas" is mostly propane with some butane.

 

It should work fine with your flame thrower.

 

Looks like the torch screws directly into the cylinder.

 

 

[Isan Farang]

On a large piece of land dragging a cooking gas cylinder around is a pain unless you have perhaps 100m hose.

 

Anyone know if there is perhaps screw on throw away canisters available.

 

I am at present using chemical spray and the results vary on different weeds, would be interested in the torch deal if throw away cans was available. I told the shop the present chemical spray is very weak and was informed they are no longer allowed to sell the previous one that worked very good.

[Damrongsak]

Ask around for one of the smaller cylinders.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9kCREgz6ozk/T3QeEmHletI/AAAAAAAAACw/4bq7qcAr0tQ/s1600/gsizeg1.jpg

[foreverlomsak]

What's in the cooking gas bottles is the same as the LPG sold for use in cars, until recently (when they changed tax regulations i.e. different tax levels for vehicles compared to cooking gas) you could refill the cooking gas cylinders at the local LPG station. I've done it.

[Daffy D]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

"Cooking gas" is mostly propane with some butane.

 

It should work fine with your flame thrower.

 

Looks like the torch screws directly into the cylinder.

 

 

Yes I assume it screws straight into the bottle without a regulator, guess you need the unrestricted pressure to get the "Thrower" effect.

 

Had a quick look at my local gas shop, but all the smaller bottles, ones you could easily carry around with you seemed to have different fitting. 

 

Now I know the green bottles are OK will have a closer look on the morrow.

 

[Daffy D]

1 hour ago, Damrongsak said:

Ask around for one of the smaller cylinders.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9kCREgz6ozk/T3QeEmHletI/AAAAAAAAACw/4bq7qcAr0tQ/s1600/gsizeg1.jpg

My local gas shop has various size cylinders, including small so will have proper look tomorrow.

[toolpush]

19 hours ago, Crossy said:

"Cooking gas" is mostly propane with some butane.

 

It should work fine with your flame thrower.

 

Looks like the torch screws directly into the cylinder.

 

 

I would venture to say that it is mostly butane with some propane. It burns far hotter than propane gas alone. I had an imported propane BBQ melt down when using local cooking gas as fuel.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, Crossy said:

"Cooking gas" is mostly propane with some butane.

 

It should work fine with your flame thrower.

 

Looks like the torch screws directly into the cylinder.

 

 

I suspect the bulk of  "cooking gas" is propene,  the black sheep of the LPGs.

In the UK it is very straightforward, Propane comes in red cylinders and used at 37 or 50mb with Butane in blue cylinders at 28mb. Both burn much hotter than propene and I think there is a legal limit on how much propene can be added.

There doesn't appear to be any standard here and from what I have seen with the green cylinders the quality of the flame is well below what I have seen in the past. I used to design LPG appliances for caravans.

But as you say, good enough for a flame thrower but really ought to use a regulator.

 

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, toolpush said:

I would venture to say that it is mostly butane with some propane. It burns far hotter than propane gas alone. I had an imported propane BBQ melt down when using local cooking gas as fuel.

Propane burns hotter than Butane. If you had a problem I suspect the jet in the burner did not match the pressure being used.

[toolpush]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Propane burns hotter than Butane. If you had a problem I suspect the jet in the burner did not match the pressure being used.

Sorry my friend. But you are wrong. Butane is a longer chain hydrocarbon than propane and as anyone in the oil industry knows, a longer chain hydrocarbon has more energy density than a shorter chain hydrocarbon. Think diesel vs gasoline. 

[Crossy]

I did some research for a similar thread a while back (2017)

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1017781-anyone-know-where-i-can-purchase-cans-of-propane/

I found this on the PTT site (sadly the original PTT link no longer works)

 

 

Quote

Cooking gas has a commercial name as liquefied petroleum gas or LPG which is a product from the oil refineries or the gas separation plants. LPG is a mixture of two hydrocarbon gases: propane and butane. It can be in any ratio or purely propane or butane. In Thailand, most LPG comes from the gas separation plants which have a ratio of propane and butane of 70:30. As the gas provides high heating value, the user can thus save the time and energy cost.

 

My bold.

 

And in the same thread

 

[toolpush]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

I did some research for a similar thread a while back (2017), I found this on the PTT site (sadly the original PTT link no longer works)

 

 

 

My bold.

Crossy, I certainly won't argue with that. I will now say that it certainly wasn't pure propane as I was previously used to. 

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, toolpush said:

Sorry my friend. But you are wrong. Butane is a longer chain hydrocarbon than propane and as anyone in the oil industry knows, a longer chain hydrocarbon has more energy density than a shorter chain hydrocarbon. Think diesel vs gasoline. 

I worked for over 10 years designing cooking appliances for caravans and know for a fact that Propane burns hotter than Butane. Spent more time in the Calor Gas laboratories than care to remember.

I wonder what these people would think of your theory.

 

Propane gets almost twice as hot as butane. This makes propane a better choice, for welding metals together and soldering. Propane torches get up to about 3,600 degrees.

The butane torches don’t get quite as hot as the propane torches, they burn at 2,600 degrees. They still get hot enough to do almost everything that a propane torch can do.

https://upgradedhome.com/propane-vs-butane/#:~:text=Propane gets almost twice as,is also a dirtier fuel.

[CLW]

Why not mounting the bottle to a dolly / hand truck to move it around on the field.

If you search on google there are even tractor mounted flame throwers for weed eradication.

A local shop should be able to built one for you.

[sandyf]

13 minutes ago, Crossy said:

I did some research for a similar thread a while back (2017), I found this on the PTT site (sadly the original PTT link no longer works)

 

 

 

My bold.

That is quite possibly the case in Thailand but not normal, and there will certainly be propene in the mix. I used to pay a fortune for pure butane and propane gases, they came in same type cylinders as welding equipment.

The gases have different calorific values and need to be used at different pressures for optimum combustion and the jet size must match the pressure. An arbitrary mixture is bound to lead to varying performance. Not a big problem in an open air kitchen or for a flame thrower, but quite a concern in an enclosed kitchen.

[Crossy]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is quite possibly the case in Thailand but not normal,

 

Since when has anything in LoS been "normal".

 

Just reporting what I found.

[millymoopoo]

20 hours ago, Daffy D said:

Is cooking gas Propane and /or will it work with my flame thrower?

Propane or Butane will work just as effectively.

Butane burns a tad hotter as it's the next one up on the fractionation tower, (slightly more volatile).

Commonly propane is used for bottle gas - cooking - BBQ - hot water - heating and gas for cars (LPG)

Some countries (including Thailand) use liquefied natural gas (LNG) for cars.
Some countries (France) have the choice for heating/cooking of Propane or Butane.

Only application I know of for blends is the new enviro gas used in car A/C systems (R290 R600)

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, toolpush said:

I would venture to say that it is mostly butane with some propane. It burns far hotter than propane gas alone. I had an imported propane BBQ melt down when using local cooking gas as fuel.

Combustion temperature rises as chain length decreases. CNG ( methane and ethane ) burns about 150 C hotter than LPG ( Propane and butane ).

[Lacessit]

36 minutes ago, millymoopoo said:

 

Butane burns a tad hotter as it's the next one up on the fractionation tower, (slightly more volatile).

 

The order of volatility is methane-ethane-propane-butane. Pentane is the first liquid hydrocarbon.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, toolpush said:

Sorry my friend. But you are wrong. Butane is a longer chain hydrocarbon than propane and as anyone in the oil industry knows, a longer chain hydrocarbon has more energy density than a shorter chain hydrocarbon. Think diesel vs gasoline. 

Perhaps you could explain why cars equipped with CNG ( methane and ethane ) have cylinder head temperatures approaching 600 C, whereas those equipped with LPG ( propane and butane ) are about 460 C.

I guess it's time to throw my chemistry degree in the bin, and forget all that stuff about flash points I learned.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Lacessit

[VocalNeal]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps you could explain why cars equipped with CNG ( methane and ethane ) have cylinder head temperatures approaching 600 C, whereas those equipped with LPG ( propane and butane ) are about 460 C.

I guess it's time to throw my chemistry degree in the bin, and forget all that stuff about flash points I learned.

 

???? But a mechanical engineering degree would have taught you that most engines are water cooled?????

[BKKBike09]

LPG cooking gas / auto gas doesn't have much propane in it, based on an unscientific observation of the actual pressures in tanks filled with it. With ambient temps in the +30 degrees C range high propane content LPG should give great pressures, but not here.

 

 

[Tropposurfer]

20 hours ago, Isan Farang said:

On a large piece of land dragging a cooking gas cylinder around is a pain unless you have perhaps 100m hose.

 

Anyone know if there is perhaps screw on throw away canisters available.

 

I am at present using chemical spray and the results vary on different weeds, would be interested in the torch deal if throw away cans was available. I told the shop the present chemical spray is very weak and was informed they are no longer allowed to sell the previous one that worked very good.

get a dirt cheap trolly and an occy trap to strap it to and away you go 

[Dazinoz]

2 hours ago, toolpush said:

Sorry my friend. But you are wrong. Butane is a longer chain hydrocarbon than propane and as anyone in the oil industry knows, a longer chain hydrocarbon has more energy density than a shorter chain hydrocarbon. Think diesel vs gasoline. 

Actually YOU are wrong  as a quick search on google provides. "Propane gets almost twice as hot as butane. This makes propane a better choice, for welding metals together and soldering. Propane torches get up to about 3,600 degrees. It burns hotter than butane but is also a dirtier fuel."

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

 

???? But a mechanical engineering degree would have taught you that most engines are water cooled?????

There's an old joke about chemical engineers. Too smart to be an engineer, not smart enough to be a chemist.

Your post does not answer the question.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, BKKBike09 said:

LPG cooking gas / auto gas doesn't have much propane in it, based on an unscientific observation of the actual pressures in tanks filled with it. With ambient temps in the +30 degrees C range high propane content LPG should give great pressures, but not here.

 

 

LPG tanks are normally designed for 250 psi pressures, and require inspection every 5 to 10 years.

CNG tanks ( methane-ethane )are designed for pressures of 2500 psi, and require yearly inspection. They are much heavier than a LPG tank.

My guess is even if the cylinder of cooking gas was pure propane, the design could handle it. Although you may be right, the butane content could be higher for safety reasons.

[Deli]

Try buffalo fart gas, should be cheap but you have to fill tanks by yourself.

[unblocktheplanet]

While we're here, does anybody know if one can buy the tiny camping cylinders one can screw on, like this?

 

Yeah, I carried the torch bit in my suitcase...

[Damrongsak]

1 hour ago, unblocktheplanet said:

While we're here, does anybody know if one can buy the tiny camping cylinders one can screw on, like this?

 

Yeah, I carried the torch bit in my suitcase...

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