The Myth of the Thai Tones

[LawrenceN]

6 hours ago, rwill said:

near and far are more a length of the vowel sound than a tonal difference.

Wrong. 

[LawrenceN]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:36 AM, JackGats said:

And if that were not complicated enough, you have to watch out for whether the syllable is "dead" or "alive". And if it's a dead syllable whether the vowel is short or long. It's a four to five-step algorithm. OK if you're solving a math problem, useless if you need to decide in a fraction of a second.

I think reading music is a better analogy. Musicians see the written music and, on each note press the right keys, apply the correct finger pressure or lip pressure/airstream for wind instruments. They adjust for key signature and rhythm. They interpret the many symbols and perform calculations, but only after years of study and practicing SYSTEMATICALLY. I never met an accomplished musician who said tones don't matter. 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Kinnock said:

I think what you describe is a different problem.  Often when we meet Thai people in restaurants, shops etc., they expect us to speak a foreign language, panic and lose all language comprehension.  

 

I sometimes have to say, in Thai, "I'm speaking Thai", then they re-tune and alls well.

 

To avoid this slightly embarrassing situation for both parties, I'll start any exchange with a polite Thai greeting so they expect to hear Thai, then 9 times out of 10 they understand my request.

Valid point. The waitress looked quite panic-stricken. The checkout girl was unfazed, perhaps she had more experience with a foreigner speaking Thai.

Or perhaps being old, ugly and big by Thai standards had something to do with it too.

[LawrenceN]

23 hours ago, Kinnock said:

 

I heard there was an attempt to simplify the written language just after WW2, but it was blocked by the ruling elite.  After all, any barriers to educating the masses must be maintained.

That's needlessly cynical. Thailand has tried very hard and invested heavily in educating its (<- no apostrophe) population. Literacy is very high in Thailand. 

 

After the commies took over in Laos in 1975, they simplified the language by eliminating duplicate consonants, and some other tweaks. Their goal was to make it easier to learn to read and write. To some extent, they were successful. 

 

In Thai, spelling tells us a lot about a word: its origin, how it can be combined to make compound words, its religious significance, and how to distinguish it from homonyms. They lost a lot of that in Lao. IMHO, Thai is a richer and more precise language because of its written language 

Edited June 5, 2021 by LawrenceN
Misspelling

[Joedoebarinio]

On 6/3/2021 at 1:39 PM, Bredbury Blue said:

I'm sceptical on your theory.

 

So you are basically saying that we can pronounce every word in a mid/normal tone and 

Thais work out the tone and the meaning of the word used from the context of the sentence.

 

Sometimes you will be right, if there's a horse in a field and I say that maa (horse) has to go", then Thais can work out it is the horse I'm talking about.

But if there's a horse and a dog in a field (both 'maa' in Thai but different tones) and I say "that maa has to go", then Thais cannot work out if it is the horse or dog I'm talking about.

 

So to a point you are correct but there will be instances when the incorrect pronunciation will confuse the other person or make no sense to them.

 

It would therefore be better to learn and use tones and if you pronounce with the wrong tone unlucky but you'll probably learn from that mistake.

The example; Horse / Dog puts the whole subject into the correct perspective.

[rwill]

2 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

9 hours ago, rwill said:

near and far are more a length of the vowel sound than a tonal difference.

Wrong. 

You are correct.  They are both short vowels.  My bad.

[LawrenceN]

2 hours ago, Joedoebarinio said:

The example; Horse / Dog puts the whole subject into the correct perspective.

ขี่/ขี้ even more so.

[Speedhump]

Yes of course context is the most reliable way to distinguish which meaning is intended. But tones exist for when there could be confusion, particularly when just saying a single word. Chinese is the same. Tones exist and are used, but with context added a word will anyway be understood with flat tone, and when speaking at speed a lot of inflexion is simply ignored. It doesn't mean that tone has no importance in certain circumstances. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Speedhump
Speeling

[Damrongsak]

32 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

ขี่/ขี้ even more so.

They go well together.

 

[Mario666]

I am from the England and I live on Samui....I can speak conversationally in French and German because I learned them at school and worked in Brussels for a while when I was 16....Six weeks summer holidays before "A levels"...

 

I even learned some Dutch as I was working in a printing factory in Woluwe  which is both Dutch and French speaking and we were printing posters for a super market called "Pris Bas" like the "Green Glo"  ones with red letters with promotional offers......They were printed in French and Dutch!

 

I have lived in Thailand for 15 years and speak enough Thai to "Get Around"....Nobody ever corrects me when I try to speak Thai (even though many times I have now realised I may be speaking Isan or Lao dialect......My GF is from Sakon Nakhon).

 

When I speak in Thai here they are always pleasantly surprised and give me Big Smiles!

 

I have learned enough Thai to get what I need....Beer, Sex and Food.....But not necessarily in that order....As Eric Morecambe once said.

 

Good luck with your Thai Language endeavours!

 

As regards the Ma, maa, etc., I never want or need a horse or a dog!

 

Take it easy Pal!

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mario666

[Phuketboy]

Very interesting.  After reading this I asked my Thai girlfriend to ready this post. As she was reading it, her smile got bigger and bigger until she started laughing.  I asked her about these tones and said is it true, that native Thai use the context of the sentence rather than the tones.  She said what he said in the post was true. She said the tones are there, but if you don't use them, it doesn't really matter, because the content of the sentence is more important to be able to understand. She said she laughed when the poster said the tones are a party trick Mai, Mai, Mai etc.  It's true sometimes. 

[maxcorrigan]

I seem to remember a Thai sentence or phrase that uses one word all the way through that makes no sense at all, until the correct tones and word lengths are used then it is understandable, this was used to show how important tones were, maybe someone can verify the phrase i refer too!

[ColeBOzbourne]

1 hour ago, maxcorrigan said:

I seem to remember a Thai sentence or phrase that uses one word all the way through that makes no sense at all, until the correct tones and word lengths are used then it is understandable, this was used to show how important tones were, maybe someone can verify the phrase i refer too!

Something like this one maybe:  ไหมใหม่ไม่ไหม้ ใช่มั๊ย (măi mài mâi mâi châi mái) “New silk doesn't burn, does it?”.

[Kinnock]

3 hours ago, maxcorrigan said:

I seem to remember a Thai sentence or phrase that uses one word all the way through that makes no sense at all, until the correct tones and word lengths are used then it is understandable, this was used to show how important tones were, maybe someone can verify the phrase i refer too!

That's just an annoying party trick to impress foreigners.  Change the word order and ask a Thai listener to correctly write down the words in the right order - and they will get half of them wrong.  I used some of these words in my original tests.

 

[LawrenceN]

4 hours ago, maxcorrigan said:

I seem to remember a Thai sentence or phrase that uses one word all the way through that makes no sense at all, until the correct tones and word lengths are used then it is understandable, this was used to show how important tones were, maybe someone can verify the phrase i refer too!

Not "one word all the way through." Five different words with different tones. Thai has a dimension that you cannot perceive unless you read it and/or hear tones. The tones are what make them different words. Are thin, than, and then the same word? No, they have different vowels. Tone is an integral part of every syllable, as much as the consonants and vowels. ColeBOzbourne's example didn't repeat "mai" five times. He used five DIFFERENT words: ไหม, ใหม่, ไม่, ไหม้, and มั๊ย. You people arguing that tones don't matter sound like a deaf person saying there's no such thing as music. 

[katana]

I suspect that in normal colloquial Thai speech when uttering a sentence, the tones are less clear and easy to hear correctly, compared to when the individual words making up that sentence are spoken separately.
Just like if you listen to colloquial Thai speech it doesn't sound like Linguaphone Thai or Thai as spoken by a news reader where every word is spoken clearly. In colloquial speech, for ease of speaking, the words are slurred somewhat as they run into each other.
Anyhow, here's a short experiment.
As mentioned before, the Thai sentence, New wood doesn't burn does it? ไม้ใหม่ไม่ไหม้ไหม contains all five tones.
Attached are the 5 sound files of the five words in this sentence spoken by a native speaker:
1.ไม้ 1.wood_ไม้.mp3
2.ใหม่2.new_ใหม่.mp3
3.ไม่3.not _ไม่.mp3
4.ไหม้4.burn_ไหม้.mp3
5.ไหม5.question_word_ไหม.mp3
Posters can play the files on their computer for a native Thai speaker to listen to. Make sure the file name is hidden, which may also be displayed in any audio software used to play the file. Also, don't play them in the order 1-5 or they might guess the sentence after the first few. Use a random order eg 3,1,2,5,4. Ask the listener what word they hear and report back the results and how many they get right. Also added are 6.come มา, 7.dog หมา and 8.horse ม้า.6.come_มา.mp37.dog.หมา.mp38.horse_ม้า.mp3

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by katana

[mpyre]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:06 PM, 1FinickyOne said:

you showed them... 

 

I am self taught through conversation and always thought context was most important as i rarely know the correct tone... 

 

Thanks for doing the research

Similar to Chinese...context is everything. Single "words" rarely mean much in isolation.

[1FinickyOne]

8 hours ago, maxcorrigan said:

I seem to remember a Thai sentence or phrase that uses one word all the way through that makes no sense at all, until the correct tones and word lengths are used then it is understandable, this was used to show how important tones were, maybe someone can verify the phrase i refer too!

khrai khai khaii kgai... who sells egg chicken? [by the sea shore] 

[Hyna]

3 hours ago, mpyre said:

Similar to Chinese...context is everything. Single "words" rarely mean much in isolation.

Seems you don't know Chinese

[Kinnock]

4 hours ago, katana said:

I suspect that in normal colloquial Thai speech when uttering a sentence, the tones are less clear and easy to hear correctly, compared to when the individual words making up that sentence are spoken separately.
Just like if you listen to colloquial Thai speech it doesn't sound like Linguaphone Thai or Thai as spoken by a news reader where every word is spoken clearly. In colloquial speech, for ease of speaking, the words are slurred somewhat as they run into each other.
Anyhow, here's a short experiment.
As mentioned before, the Thai sentence, New wood doesn't burn does it? ไม้ใหม่ไม่ไหม้ไหม contains all five tones.
Attached are the 5 sound files of the five words in this sentence spoken by a native speaker:
1.ไม้ 1.wood_ไม้.mp3
2.ใหม่2.new_ใหม่.mp3
3.ไม่3.not _ไม่.mp3
4.ไหม้4.burn_ไหม้.mp3
5.ไหม5.question_word_ไหม.mp3
Posters can play the files on their computer for a native Thai speaker to listen to. Make sure the file name is hidden, which may also be displayed in any audio software used to play the file. Also, don't play them in the order 1-5 or they might guess the sentence after the first few. Use a random order eg 3,1,2,5,4. Ask the listener what word they hear and report back the results and how many they get right. Also added are 6.come มา, 7.dog หมา and 8.horse ม้า.6.come_มา.mp37.dog.หมา.mp38.horse_ม้า.mp3

 

 

 

 

Thank you .... a useful additional test.

 

Just tried it on my wife and her friend:

 

Wood and New - correct.

 

Not, burn, question .... total failure.

 

[katana]

Hi Kinnock. Interesting. What incorrect words did they hear for 3.Notไม่, 4.burnไหม้, 5.questionไหม?

Edited June 6, 2021 by katana

[Kinnock]

10 minutes ago, katana said:

Hi Kinnock. Interesting. What incorrect words did they hear for 3.Notไม่, 4.burnไหม้, 5.questionไหม?

Right three words - but not in the right order.  

[katana]

Thanks. The reason I ask is that  3.not ไม่ and 4.burn ไหม้, although spelled differently, would sound the same (both short, falling tone) so could be confused with each other. That would explain the wrong order of 3.not ไม่ and 4.burn ไหม้.
Also, 5.ไหม (short, rising tone) has more than one meaning. In addition to question word, it can also mean silk, silkworm, fine and penalty. But if they didn't say any of those words, then I guess that rules that out.

[tgeezer]

22 hours ago, Kinnock said:

That's just an annoying party trick to impress foreigners.  Change the word order and ask a Thai listener to correctly write down the words in the right order - and they will get half of them wrong.  I used some of these words in my original tests.

 

I used to wonder what Thai being an isolating language meant. 
  I read the first post and the party trick "my my my my" and wondered what was the tone of silk. I resolved that by saying to myself ผ้าไหม .(Pamy) 

Are we misunderstanding the Thai language when we expect to be able to recognize individual words in the same way that we are able to do in our own languages? 
When people say that normal Thais don't speak as we learners do could it be because they know better when and how to elucidate 
 

[maxcorrigan]

18 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

khrai khai khaii kgai... who sells egg chicken? [by the sea shore] 

The one i was referring too seemed longer than that, could be wrong though!

[nrasmussen]

21 hours ago, katana said:

I suspect that in normal colloquial Thai speech when uttering a sentence, the tones are less clear and easy to hear correctly, compared to when the individual words making up that sentence are spoken separately.
Just like if you listen to colloquial Thai speech it doesn't sound like Linguaphone Thai or Thai as spoken by a news reader where every word is spoken clearly. In colloquial speech, for ease of speaking, the words are slurred somewhat as they run into each other.
Anyhow, here's a short experiment.
As mentioned before, the Thai sentence, New wood doesn't burn does it? ไม้ใหม่ไม่ไหม้ไหม contains all five tones.
Attached are the 5 sound files of the five words in this sentence spoken by a native speaker:
1.ไม้ 1.wood_ไม้.mp3
2.ใหม่2.new_ใหม่.mp3
3.ไม่3.not _ไม่.mp3
4.ไหม้4.burn_ไหม้.mp3
5.ไหม5.question_word_ไหม.mp3
Posters can play the files on their computer for a native Thai speaker to listen to. Make sure the file name is hidden, which may also be displayed in any audio software used to play the file. Also, don't play them in the order 1-5 or they might guess the sentence after the first few. Use a random order eg 3,1,2,5,4. Ask the listener what word they hear and report back the results and how many they get right. Also added are 6.come มา, 7.dog หมา and 8.horse ม้า.6.come_มา.mp37.dog.หมา.mp38.horse_ม้า.mp3

 

 

 

 

 

The sentence does not contain all five tones: 3 and 4 both have falling tones, and mid tone is missing.

[katana]

Yes, I should have said all tones except normal tone.

Pedantry noted.

 

[LawrenceN]

17 hours ago, katana said:

Hi Kinnock. Interesting. What incorrect words did they hear for 3.Notไม่, 4.burnไหม้, 5.questionไหม?

Bear in mind that 3 & 4 are homonyms. 

[LawrenceN]

35 minutes ago, katana said:

Yes, I should have said all tones except normal tone.

Pedantry noted.

 

Not fair to call it pedantry. He spoke the truth and added to the discussion, correcting a false statement. 

 

I belong to a Facebook group called "Farang can learn Thai Language - รักภาษาไทย." If anyone is really interested in learning Thai, try it. This TV forum is the blind leading the blind. There's a lot of speculation from people who haven't a clue, totally cringeworthy. It's difficult to sort the rubbish from the gold. A big difference in the FB group is lots of participation by native Thai speakers. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by LawrenceN
Clarification

[katana]

31 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

I belong to a Facebook group called "Farang can learn Thai Language - รักภาษาไทย.

The Thai translation of the name doesn't even match the English. Hope it gets better from there.