Thai woman dies hours after receiving AstraZeneca vaccine

[jak2002003]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Playing devils advocate here - I’ve made my point enough already I think. 

 

1) She was on medication for migraines (pain in the brain) and died of a brain problem (a seizure). Is the fact that she was prescribed medication indication of an underlying condition? - the medication didn’t kill her, the underlying condition did. 

 

2) Migraine Meds in conjunction with her vaccine cause the seizure? possible. 

 

3) Vaccine on is own cause the seizure? again, possible. 

 

All of these are possibilities......  depending on ones level of ‘vaccine concern' why is it so readily assumed, by many that the cause of death was the vaccine. 

 

I doubt we will ever find out for certain. But one thing is for sure, the media and those who may be described as ‘anti-covid-vaxxers’ will count this as a ‘vaccine death’ and won’t let any other realistic possibilities interfere with their bias. 

 

 

 

 

Yes. Similar to the pro Covid vaccination people that count ever death as a Covid 19 death even if the people died of heart attacks or cancer but happened to test positive to the virus. 

[wadman]

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Playing devils advocate here - I’ve made my point enough already I think. 

 

1) She was on medication for migraines (pain in the brain) and died of a brain problem (a seizure). Is the fact that she was prescribed medication indication of an underlying condition? - the medication didn’t kill her, the underlying condition did. 

 

2) Migraine Meds in conjunction with her vaccine cause the seizure? possible. 

 

3) Vaccine on is own cause the seizure? again, possible. 

 

All of these are possibilities......  depending on ones level of ‘vaccine concern' why is it so readily assumed, by many that the cause of death was the vaccine. 

 

I doubt we will ever find out for certain. But one thing is for sure, the media and those who may be described as ‘anti-covid-vaxxers’ will count this as a ‘vaccine death’ and won’t let any other realistic possibilities interfere with their bias. 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The meds or the underlying condition may have killed her, yes.  It's the TIMING that makes this case so suspicious and shifts the probability towards the vaccin.  She presumably had the condition for a while, had taken the meds before.  And then 4 hours or so after the vaccin she is dead.

 

2. meds + vaccine cause the seizure and death.  Well, if true, certainly the case can be made that without the vaccine, she would still be alive.

 

 

[Anna Rak]

11 hours ago, DaveE13 said:

I'm in London now have been for 2 years due to work . I know many that have had their AZ vacs including my 80 year old mum. No side effects at all. My 2nd jab booked this Saturday.

I am in London also, but only working until the p**cks in Thailand allow me to go back without the stupid Quarantine. 

[richard_smith237]

12 minutes ago, wadman said:

 

1. The meds or the underlying condition may have killed her, yes.  It's the TIMING that makes this case so suspicious and shifts the probability towards the vaccin.  She presumably had the condition for a while, had taken the meds before.  And then 4 hours or so after the vaccin she is dead.

 

2. meds + vaccine cause the seizure and death.  Well, if true, certainly the case can be made that without the vaccine, she would still be alive.

 

Correlation is not cause.... 

 

Response to your point #1: If you are presuming she [the deceased] had the condition for a while, can we also assume she developed the condition very recently, could we assume she was issued the migraine medication just the day before?

 

We can assume anything we want and draw a conclusion based on that assumption which to fit our bias. 

 

You wrote that the timing makes the case so suspicious. I counter that the timing is coincidental and present the below argument to back that up. 

 

Statistically: 1524 people will die in Thailand each day, some of them will take the vaccine, some of them will die within a month of taking the vaccine, some within a month and some on the same day etc - the timing in relationship to taking the vaccine will be coincidental.

After reading the media announcements of those deaths within a specified timeframe of taking a vaccine some who allow themselves to be influenced by the hysteria surrounding the vaccines will suggest the timing is suspicious. 

 

Response to your point #2: You’ve turned an assumption into a hypothetical fact and drawn the conclusion that she would still be alive to confirm an anti-covid-vax stance. 

 

I’ll do the same to confirm an anti-Migraine-med stance using your exact words with just one single alteration:  << meds + vaccine cause the seizure and death.  Well, if true, certainly the case can be made that without the meds, she would still be alive >>

 

Your response 2 remains valid if your argument is that the ‘cocktail’ of meds and vaccine is to blame, but not if solely the vaccine is to blame, otherwise we get into highly questionable logic territory. 

 

For example: I took the AZ vaccine on Monday. I felt pretty rubbish yesterday, I was achey and drowsy. 

Had I gone out and driven / rides while unable to properly concentrate and had and accident and / or killed myself - it could be argued that the vaccine is to blame.

If you don’t like the ‘driving argument’, how about, if I ate some food, but because I was drowsy I failed to swallow properly and ended up choking - it could be argued that the vaccine is to blame. 

 

 

I’m going off track and making strawman arguments to highlight the flaw in logic. Questionable logic territory is ground we really don’t need to get into. 

 

 

Finally, playing devils advocate with my own comments with a couple of additional points:

IF I someone gets vaccinated then gets wildly drunk and dies... will it be the alcohol or the vaccine? Will the media report ‘man dies hours after receiving the vaccine’....  Or will the media report ‘vaccinated man dies after getting drunk’...

 

My point here is, what will the villain be, the booze or the vaccine ???? - which is most sensationalist ?

 

Those against the vaccine would perhaps chose to demonise the vaccine for his demise. Those against the alcohol would perhaps choose to demonise the booze and blame the person for his demise. 

 

The reality is of course, it could be neither, either or both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[daveAustin]

13 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

maybe, but outside the UK, AZ reputation is done in Europe, and not even medical personnel wants it. Could be an over-reaction, but perception is reality, so plenty of AZ for you SE Asia guys and Africa ????

Lol they were clambering to get it. It’s all politically motivated from buthurt Europeans (evidenced by trollish posts like yours) whose governments were slow and caused the death of thousands then had to be rescued by the yanks,,, AGAIN. 

[daveAustin]

It’s sensationalist tat like this that will stop people from getting vaccinated. The thing has potentially already saved millions of lives. If it killed 1% directly, that would still be a result. But this, and others, are likely deaths waiting to happen anyway. 
Rather suspiciously we never hear about the Pfizer deaths. My next door neighbour (a nurse) was very ill for a week after it. Inevitable there are coincidental deaths but we never hear. Whatever.  

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Would that will be the reaction of your family and friends if that happened to you after you got the vaccination?  

Yes, the conclusrions drawn by emotionally distraught people is definitely the way to go when doing a medical investigation.

[Artisi]

11 hours ago, Stupooey said:

 

Probably brown bread.

Brown bread will get you everytime, it's always wholemeal for me. 

[Artisi]

6 hours ago, wadman said:

 

1. The meds or the underlying condition may have killed her, yes.  It's the TIMING that makes this case so suspicious and shifts the probability towards the vaccin.  She presumably had the condition for a while, had taken the meds before.  And then 4 hours or so after the vaccin she is dead.

 

2. meds + vaccine cause the seizure and death.  Well, if true, certainly the case can be made that without the vaccine, she would still be alive.

 

 

Likewise, without the meds she would still be alive - stupid argument, isn't it? 

[4MyEgo]

16 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

But you don’t seem to believe the statistics that billions of people have already been vaccinated safely, in fact in an earlier comment you wrote [I am not interested in billions getting the vaccine.] 

 

My point being, that if a food product was associated with blood clots that killed people, but rare, it would be pulled from the shelves, but governments have more power than you or I can imagine. We all need food to survive, assuming this food product was the only food left, would they pull it from the shelves, no, benefits outweigh the risks.

 

To me, they can say that the AZ vaccine is safe, but I choose not to believe it, simply because people have died shortly after having it, and yes millions or billions have taken it and are fine, but people have also died and they shift away from those people dying with comments like yours, oh they could have died from this even if they didn't take it, rare underlying condition, but they don't know that, but throw that out there and people such as yourself accept it. God forbid if a loved one of yours took the AZ jab and died shortly thereafter, I would think your attitude might shift, maybe not, but as I said, for me, it's the AZ vaccine until I hear otherwise.

 

The above said, I will wait till Moderna arrives and see what's been happening around the world data wise, naturally avoiding conspiracy theories as I do, although everyone that has a story isn't necessarily a conspiracist because they have a mind of their own and go the opposite way with the science to prove their theory's, and then I will make a judgement call if I feel safe taking it.

[4MyEgo]

14 hours ago, AlexRich said:

The probability of acquiring a blood clot is higher if you contract Covid 19 than if you receive the AZN vaccine. So if someone is worried about blood clots they should fear the virus more than the vaccine. You are also more likely to experience a blood clot if you take birth control pills. All of these activities are in fact low risk. 

 

So I will take my chances and look at other options, the vaccines are not the Holy Grail as they are making them out to be IMO.

[4MyEgo]

12 hours ago, jack71 said:

Come on mate what are you saying?????? Its a global pandemic. How many global deaths have there been. Economies shut down etc etc. Not as serious..... thanks for the first laugh of the day

 

Do you understand math ?

 

How many people have recovered or had Covid vs how many people have died, that in itself should tell you whether you pass or fail.

 

Why don't they push, older people die, or could it be it's better to push vaccines because they are profitable. Read the below in the next copy and pasted article from Google.

 

"According to GBD 2017 population estimates, the number of people aged 65 years and older increased by 105% globally from 1990 (327.6 million) to 2017 (673.7 million); the number of global deaths increased from 19.1 million to 32.2 million in the same time period".

 

How many people died of Covid, and how old were they, did I hear 3 million, but hang on, they would have died anyway, wouldn't they.....give me a break people. 

 

Who's having the first laugh of the day now.

Edited June 10, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

So I will take my chances and look at other options, the vaccines are not the Holy Grail as they are making them out to be IMO.

Vaccines do fit the definition of Holy Grail as being a thing that is earnestly pursued or sought after by many. You opt out doesn't really negate the definition. ????

[4MyEgo]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

The fear has been imbedded in your head, this disease only kills around 0.62% of mostly elderly people or those with underlying or pre-existing conditions, the survival rate is over 99%, so what are you going on about.

 

I will take my chances until a suitable vaccine comes to market, my choice, so don't wish bad on anyone because of their beliefs, I could do the same to you, but won't lower myself to your standard, as I said, I am not an anti-vaxer, I just don't buy the BS that's going around, besides AZ is only 10.4% effective against the South African strain, so please, do run out and get your jab if that will make you feel better.

 

Again: "According to GBD 2017 population estimates, the number of people aged 65 years and older increased by 105% globally from 1990 (327.6 million) to 2017 (673.7 million); the number of global deaths increased from 19.1 million to 32.2 million in the same time period".

[4MyEgo]

13 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Vaccines do fit the definition of Holy Grail as being a thing that is earnestly pursued or sought after by many. You opt out doesn't really negate the definition. ????

 

"According to GBD 2017 population estimates, the number of people aged 65 years and older increased by 105% globally from 1990 (327.6 million) to 2017 (673.7 million); the number of global deaths increased from 19.1 million to 32.2 million in the same time period".

Edited June 10, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[gearbox]

6 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Lol they were clambering to get it. It’s all politically motivated from buthurt Europeans (evidenced by trollish posts like yours) whose governments were slow and caused the death of thousands then had to be rescued by the yanks,,, AGAIN. 

Rescued by the yanks with a German vaccine...in the end who is rescuing who? Too complicated.

[Eric Loh]

3 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

"According to GBD 2017 population estimates, the number of people aged 65 years and older increased by 105% globally from 1990 (327.6 million) to 2017 (673.7 million); the number of global deaths increased from 19.1 million to 32.2 million in the same time period".

I will take my chance being vaccinated and dying of old age than dying prematurely and alone bearing all the suffering and hooked to a ventilator with no love ones around. I guess to each his own. I wish you best of health not vaccinated.  

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Please check your information again....   you have it the wrong way round - you are describing the opposite of Thrombosis.

Exactly what I said in the beginning. I never mentioned thrombosis, you brought it up.

 

I take anticoagulants twice a day on a permanent basis and also have had dengue fever, well aware of the difference and don't need any lectures.

 

[MRToMRT]

If she took medication for migraine before one can assume she was actually having a stroke and thought it was a migraine. One of the more common stroke symptoms is a terrible headache. Whether a blood clot which caused the stroke is one for autopsy. Whether the vaccine caused the blood clot is conjecture.

[WhatsNext]

34 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

I will take my chance being vaccinated and dying of old age than dying prematurely and alone bearing all the suffering and hooked to a ventilator with no love ones around. I guess to each his own. I wish you best of health not vaccinated.  

 

Or dying from AZ induced side effects decades before your average life expectancy because you decided to take a experimental jab based on the MSM spreading fears without taking risk calculations into account.

 

Don't forget : getting the vaccine is a 100% chance if you take it, getting covid in Thailand is a very very small chance, then getting sick of that is a very very small chance again, then dying of that is another very very small chance.

 

Healthy and below 60 ? Your chances of serious side effects from the vaccine are actually higher than dying of covid. Make your choice

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by WhatsNext

[FATOZ]

21 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Let me think die at 56 with lung cancer........or 86 in my sleep.......decisions, decisions.........

My Mother in Law never smoked in her life, died of lung canceer. My grandmother smoked for 91 years and died at 105. if its going to get you, its going to get you

 

[4MyEgo]

41 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

I will take my chance being vaccinated and dying of old age than dying prematurely and alone bearing all the suffering and hooked to a ventilator with no love ones around. I guess to each his own. I wish you best of health not vaccinated.  

 

You know when you remove fear of death from your mind and accept that we are all going to die eventually, then perhaps you can enjoy the moment, the though of a ventilator has never entered my mind as I wouldn't go on one.

 

Thank you for your wishes, although I will eventually get vaccinated again, perhaps, as it will be the 3rd one this year, one for each different virus, e.g. Influenza and Pneumonia, seriously becoming a joke, really.

[DavisH]

14 hours ago, placeholder said:

As any demographer will tell you, there has been in increase in mortality that is greater than that of deaths ascribed to covid. That's called excess mortality. As for the nonsense  about attribution, this stems from a basic misunderstanding of co-morbidity. Whenever anyone does, all the other illness and conditions that this person had are listed as comorbidities. It doesn't mean that they died from those illnesses or conditions. 

Excess mortality as startly evident after the 2 big waves in the UK. 

[brianthainess]

21 hours ago, orchis said:

my mother-in-law survived 

Never mind i'm sure get over it. ????

[Eric Loh]

24 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

 

Or dying from AZ induced side effects decades before your average life expectancy because you decided to take a experimental jab based on the MSM spreading fears without taking risk calculations into account.

 

Don't forget : getting the vaccine is a 100% chance if you take it, getting covid in Thailand is a very very small chance, then getting sick of that is a very very small chance again, then dying of that is another very very small chance.

 

Healthy and below 60 ? Your chances of serious side effects from the vaccine are actually higher than dying of covid. Make your choice

 

I take comfort in the manner in which the success of vaccination in USA propelled a sharp decline in infections, hospitalization and deaths. Vaccines deaths have not been scientifically correlated with vaccines and misleading claims by Fox about deaths of fully vaccinated people have been debunked by many. An example of false claim happened in one case whereby a vaccinated man was killed in a road accident between getting the jab and date of death but the case was included in the data-base. I will take my chance with vaccine anytime over the insecurity of a normal every life getting infected plus the fact that I can travel.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-hospitalizations-deaths-plummet-following-vaccine-rollout-older-adults-n1269940

[mommysboy]

9 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Would that will be the reaction of your family and friends if that happened to you after you got the vaccination?  

 

Yeah, but we can play that game with just about every micro risk we take in life.  Bad things happen.  We hate it of course, and nobody wants it to happen to either them or anybody else.

[wadman]

1 hour ago, WhatsNext said:

 

Or dying from AZ induced side effects decades before your average life expectancy because you decided to take a experimental jab based on the MSM spreading fears without taking risk calculations into account.

 

Don't forget : getting the vaccine is a 100% chance if you take it, getting covid in Thailand is a very very small chance, then getting sick of that is a very very small chance again, then dying of that is another very very small chance.

 

Healthy and below 60 ? Your chances of serious side effects from the vaccine are actually higher than dying of covid. Make your choice

 

 

I am below 60 and healthy, and in Thailand. I do plan to get vaccinated but have some serious reservations about AZ. My choice is basically get AZ in maybe 2 months, or get Moderna in 5 months, say.

 

Which one is the bigger risk: risking covid for those extra 3 months, or the risk of AZ over Moderna? I'll go with Moderna. 

 

[mommysboy]

9 hours ago, wadman said:

 

1. The meds or the underlying condition may have killed her, yes.  It's the TIMING that makes this case so suspicious and shifts the probability towards the vaccin.  She presumably had the condition for a while, had taken the meds before.  And then 4 hours or so after the vaccin she is dead.

 

2. meds + vaccine cause the seizure and death.  Well, if true, certainly the case can be made that without the vaccine, she would still be alive.

 

 

 

But what's your point?: the vaccines aren't 100% safe?  Well yes we know that already, and so should you.  It's common knowledge that 2,3,or even 5 deaths per million are extremely suspicious.  Actually I don't think this example is one of them, but an an autopsy may help.  But I don't know, and neither do you, so how can you argue with even 90% certainty?

 

 

[mommysboy]

14 minutes ago, wadman said:

 

I am below 60 and healthy, and in Thailand. I do plan to get vaccinated but have some serious reservations about AZ. My choice is basically get AZ in maybe 2 months, or get Moderna in 5 months, say.

 

Which one is the bigger risk: risking covid for those extra 3 months, or the risk of AZ over Moderna? I'll go with Moderna. 

 

 

The type of sudden death you are talking about is present with all the vaccines, including the Moderna.  Your personal health condition is a very likely predictor of this rare event.

 

You would probably do better to not take a vaccine until you are sure. Try to aim for a BMI of 22 and take regular moderate exercise.  Make sure you really are healthy, since it is a most overused term.  Can you run a mile regularly for instance?

 

(Yes the AZ vaccine is linked to a rare condition called VITT, which is less likely in your case as you are male, assumed to be healthy, and not so young, I guess. )

 

A decision to delay the vaccine also depends on the prevalence of the virus.  However, you should keep a low profile as you are doing now.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

My point being, that if a food product was associated with blood clots that killed people, but rare, it would be pulled from the shelves, but governments have more power than you or I can imagine. We all need food to survive, assuming this food product was the only food left, would they pull it from the shelves, no, benefits outweigh the risks.

 

To me, they can say that the AZ vaccine is safe, but I choose not to believe it, simply because people have died shortly after having it, and yes millions or billions have taken it and are fine, but people have also died and they shift away from those people dying with comments like yours, oh they could have died from this even if they didn't take it, rare underlying condition, but they don't know that, but throw that out there and people such as yourself accept it. God forbid if a loved one of yours took the AZ jab and died shortly thereafter, I would think your attitude might shift, maybe not, but as I said, for me, it's the AZ vaccine until I hear otherwise.

 

The above said, I will wait till Moderna arrives and see what's been happening around the world data wise, naturally avoiding conspiracy theories as I do, although everyone that has a story isn't necessarily a conspiracist because they have a mind of their own and go the opposite way with the science to prove their theory's, and then I will make a judgement call if I feel safe taking it.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

'Over 285 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 24, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,863 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.'

 

So presumably, using the same logic, you won't be getting the Pfizer or Moderna?