Tax on UK pension

[spornb]

As a retired UK Chartered Accountant having lived in Thailand over 12 yrs, I comment as follows

 

Pensions received in thailand are not taxable in Thailand

 

Pensions paid to people living here are not eligible for the annual increase

 

As regards the UK whether resident there or not, all income including pensions, dividends, interest, rental income etc,  above the tax free allowance is subject to tax generally being deducted by the UK Pensions office, and other pension companies paying from the UK at source

 

Thailand generally is a very tax friendly country to retired people

 

Five years ago I agreed with no assets in the UK, and my pension below the personal allowance, I no longer have to file any tax returns unless my position changes

[bradiston]

6 minutes ago, spornb said:

As a retired UK Chartered Accountant having lived in Thailand over 12 yrs, I comment as follows

 

Pensions received in thailand are not taxable in Thailand

 

Pensions paid to people living here are not eligible for the annual increase

 

As regards the UK whether resident there or not, all income including pensions, dividends, interest, rental income etc,  above the tax free allowance is subject to tax generally being deducted by the UK Pensions office, and other pension companies paying from the UK at source

 

Thailand generally is a very tax friendly country to retired people

 

Five years ago I agreed with no assets in the UK, and my pension below the personal allowance, I no longer have to file any tax returns unless my position changes

Sure. If you want the annual increase, move to the Philippines!

[mickyr55]

27 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Sure. If you want the annual increase, move to the Philippines!

Not true just have a UK current bank account using UK address, family member, friend whatever, ship capital over here when required still get pension increase no tax in Thailand also claim back all tax paid by Thai bank on your capital over here because you haven't any Thai income,             easy-peasy????????

[theoldgit]

32 minutes ago, spornb said:

Pensions paid to people living here are not eligible for the annual increase

That statement is only partially correct, whilst the the UK State Pension is not increased in line with inflation for those living in some countries, including Thailand, the rules for other pensioners may well allow pensions to be increased globally in line with inflation.

 

For instance, I’ve receive annual increases on my Civil Service Pension, and have done so before you moved to Thailand over twelve years ago.

 

I mention this as the OP is in receipt of a small Civil Service Pension, and maybe concerned by your response.

[spornb]

18 minutes ago, mickyr55 said:

Not true just have a UK current bank account using UK address, family member, friend whatever, ship capital over here when required still get pension increase no tax in Thailand also claim back all tax paid by Thai bank on your capital over here because you haven't any Thai income,             easy-peasy????????

 

52 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Sure. If you want the annual increase, move to the Philippines!

 

I posted factual information relating only to thailand, and stated that, my wish was to assist and correct a lot of wrong information

 

There are many countries where the increase is still paid

 

Using UK address to get pension increases, and living in Thailand is out and out fraud, if you were identified by your dishonest post you would at best be made to repay or even face a jail sentence

 

I resist from posting a lot these days because of so many NEGATIVE people on the forum

[Surelynot]

22 hours ago, bradiston said:

You can still do self assessment abroad, but you will have to download and purchase approved software with which to so do. HMRC has a list. About £15 plus vat. Generally very well written, easy to use software covering every aspect of self assessment, including all the optional sheets, and very useful online help pages. I did foul up one time ticking the wrong box but got it straightened out when I noticed only half my occupational pension was being paid.

 

Course, YMMV!

I do self-assessment online direct to HMRC for free, no software involved....am I missing out on something?

[Surelynot]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

If you are not a member of the "scared of your own shadow" brigade, there are ways to avoid paying tax in the UK on private pensions if they are paid into your UK bank.

How on earth can you avoid tax on a private pension.....it is taxed automatically at source by the provider regardless of which bank it is sent to???

Edited June 27, 2021 by Surelynot

[scubascuba3]

Just now, Surelynot said:

How unearth can you avoid tax on a private pension.....it is taxed automatically at source by the provider regardless of which bank it is sent to???

How do they work out what tax rate to apply?

[Surelynot]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

How do they work out what tax rate to apply?

HMRC tell them....if in doubt you get shafted with an emergency code and have to beg to get the money back....otherwise do a tax return every year....dead easy to do.

[NoshowJones]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

How on earth can you avoid tax on a private pension.....it is taxed automatically at source by the provider regardless of which bank it is sent to???

Yes you are right, I don't know too much about private pensions. I mean when I was younger back in the UK, any time I was threatened with a bill from some authority that I thought was unjust, I nearly always found a way to avoid it, ie council tax.

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Yes you are right, I don't know too much about private pensions. I mean when I was younger back in the UK, any time I was threatened with a bill from some authority that I thought was unjust, I nearly always found a way to avoid it, ie council tax.

You've upset me now......thought you were going to come back at me say "you idiot, do it like this"................gutted.

[scubascuba3]

33 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

HMRC tell them....if in doubt you get shafted with an emergency code and have to beg to get the money back....otherwise do a tax return every year....dead easy to do.

yeah i do a tax return online every year and very easy, nowhere near pension age yet though, maybe 10+ years before I'll kick off the private ones

[Andy1961]

Hi, OP here.  Thanks for all your helpful comments.   HMRC told me if I get the Double Taxation Agreement completed by the Thai authority (which I accept could be a mammoth task) they will provide my private pension provider with a zero tax code.  So I will get my pension paid into my Thai bank account gross and, fingers tightly crossed, the Thai taxman won't bother to deduct tax from that.   From the various comments above, that is the path I will pursue and if I have to pay tax in Thailand, then so be it.

 

I am trying to avoid paying tax in the UK after I become a non-resident because it simply feels unfair.  Why should I contribute to the government gravy train when **cks like Hancock claim expenses to take his mistress out to dinner?  If I don't belong to the club anymore why pay subscriptions?

Edited June 27, 2021 by Andy1961

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

I do self-assessment online direct to HMRC for free, no software involved....am I missing out on something?

 

Assuming you're resident in Thailand, yes you are.  Hector in his infinite wisdom has decided not to make the "non-resident" pages of the tax return available on-line (even though non-residents are one of the groups that would benefit from being able to submit on-line).

As a non-resident, it's not optional to submit these pages, so you either have to make a paper return, or purchase software that covers the non-resident pages.

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

Assuming you're resident in Thailand, yes you are.  Hector in his infinite wisdom has decided not to make the "non-resident" pages of the tax return available on-line (even though non-residents are one of the groups that would benefit from being able to submit on-line).

As a non-resident, it's not optional to submit these pages, so you either have to make a paper return, or purchase software that covers the non-resident pages.

Hector must have been fooled by my VPN.....is that possible???

[Oxx]

24 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Hector must have been fooled by my VPN.....is that possible???

 

That is a ridiculous statement.  If you are non-resident you are required to provide the non-resident pages.  Using a VPN doesn't change your resident status.

[Surelynot]

4 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

That is a ridiculous statement.  If you are non-resident you are required to provide the non-resident pages.  Using a VPN doesn't change your resident status.

Calm down dear 

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, mickyr55 said:

Not true just have a UK current bank account using UK address, family member, friend whatever, ship capital over here when required still get pension increase no tax in Thailand also claim back all tax paid by Thai bank on your capital over here because you haven't any Thai income,             easy-peasy????????

Er yeah, right, if you want to go down that path. If they catch you out, it's going to prove expensive.

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, spornb said:

 

 

I posted factual information relating only to thailand, and stated that, my wish was to assist and correct a lot of wrong information

 

There are many countries where the increase is still paid

 

Using UK address to get pension increases, and living in Thailand is out and out fraud, if you were identified by your dishonest post you would at best be made to repay or even face a jail sentence

 

I resist from posting a lot these days because of so many NEGATIVE people on the forum

All I stated was a fact. The UK and the Philippines have an agreement. It wasn't supposed to be a criticism of anyone.

[JackGats]

4 hours ago, possum1931 said:

If you are not a member of the "scared of your own shadow" brigade, there are ways to avoid paying tax in the UK on private pensions if they are paid into your UK bank.

Yes. I would have thought if your are a resident of Thailand (over 183 days in Thailand or at least outside the UK), you are not a tax resident of the UK and you are not supposed to pay taxes in the UK. So if there is no automatic withholding tax on your pension , it's possible to get it free of tax, and it shouldn't matter where the bank account is on which the pension is paid since you are an offshore resident. Of course the UK may have its own rules, it always has, but I doubt they would be more drastic than say France or Belgium. Would a UK bank alert the UK tax revenu service and say "hey here's a guy living in Thailand and he gets a tax free pension on his UK account each month"? 

 

 

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, Surelynot said:

I do self-assessment online direct to HMRC for free, no software involved....am I missing out on something?

I believe if you're living abroad, you're not supposed to use the HMRC website to do your return. You're supposed to use approved 3rd party software. That's all. I do not work for HMRC! And I don't myself understand why this might be the case, but there you go.

[NoshowJones]

1 minute ago, JackGats said:

Yes. I would have thought if your are a resident of Thailand (over 183 days in Thailand or at least outside the UK), you are not a tax resident of the UK and you are not supposed to pay taxes in the UK. So if there is no automatic withholding tax on your pension , it's possible to get it free of tax, and it shouldn't matter where the bank account is on which the pension is paid since you are an offshore resident. Of course the UK may have its own rules, it always has, but I doubt they would be more drastic than say France or Belgium. Would a UK bank alert the UK tax revenu service and say "hey here's a guy living in Thailand and he gets a tax free pension on his UK account each month"? 

 

 

No, a UK bank would not be allowed to do this. There is a name for that but I cannot remember what it is.

[bradiston]

2 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Yes. I would have thought if your are a resident of Thailand (over 183 days in Thailand or at least outside the UK), you are not a tax resident of the UK and you are not supposed to pay taxes in the UK. So if there is no automatic withholding tax on your pension , it's possible to get it free of tax, and it shouldn't matter where the bank account is on which the pension is paid since you are an offshore resident. Of course the UK may have its own rules, it always has, but I doubt they would be more drastic than say France or Belgium. Would a UK bank alert the UK tax revenu service and say "hey here's a guy living in Thailand and he gets a tax free pension on his UK account each month"? 

 

 

You are almost forever tax resident in the UK. There are ways out, but you'd need to talk to an expert. Being non resident, which is what you're talking about, does not exempt you from paying UK tax.

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

I believe if you're living abroad, you're not supposed to use the HMRC website to do your return. You're supposed to use approved 3rd party software. That's all. I do not work for HMRC! And I don't myself understand why this might be the case, but there you go.

I wonder why......and I guess if you are on holiday, abroad, you cannot use the HMRC route either.....strange!

[Surelynot]

9 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Yes. I would have thought if your are a resident of Thailand (over 183 days in Thailand or at least outside the UK), you are not a tax resident of the UK and you are not supposed to pay taxes in the UK.

Nice try.....not a chance......you must pay UK tax on all UK income regardless........ you can avoid UK tax on income earned abroad if you are not tax resident in the UK.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, Andy1961 said:

Hi, OP here.  Thanks for all your helpful comments.   HMRC told me if I get the Double Taxation Agreement completed by the Thai authority (which I accept could be a mammoth task) they will provide my private pension provider with a zero tax code.  So I will get my pension paid into my Thai bank account gross and, fingers tightly crossed, the Thai taxman won't bother to deduct tax from that.   From the various comments above, that is the path I will pursue and if I have to pay tax in Thailand, then so be it.

 

I am trying to avoid paying tax in the UK after I become a non-resident because it simply feels unfair.  Why should I contribute to the government gravy train when **cks like Hancock claim expenses to take his mistress out to dinner?  If I don't belong to the club anymore why pay subscriptions?

If you go down that route you need to first find out the tax rate you might have to pay here, if more than UK no point doing it

Edited June 27, 2021 by scubascuba3

[UKresonant]

11 hours ago, possum1931 said:

If you are not a member of the "scared of your own shadow" brigade, there are ways to avoid paying tax in the UK on private pensions if they are paid into your UK bank.

 

Well at the moment the simple solution for me  is that the 25% tax free I took in 2018 + Two defined benefit ones in play, will do me until close to drawing my state pension. HMRC can see nearly all on the PAYE system, every  thing else is ISAed or Div exempt, after talking to them, not much worried  in me raising a tax return unless I generate a taxable event.

So the private pensions just generate a P60 for each one of £0.

 

The Canada Life do some purchased annuities, Fixed term rather than life, better tax if using money already outside a pension, thought they may be useful in showing income is not from current tax year in Thailand. The can is kicked down the road for quite a few years for me anyway. Annuities are still relatively poor value though, that may start to change in a few years...

 

[Orinoco]

17 hours ago, bradiston said:

I believe if you're living abroad, you're not supposed to use the HMRC website to do your return. You're supposed to use approved 3rd party software. That's all. I do not work for HMRC! And I don't myself understand why this might be the case, but there you go.

Paper return or third party software.

[Orinoco]

21 hours ago, bradiston said:

The cost of the software is tax deductible as a business expense. Ok, end of argument, each to his own...

Not so sure about tax deductible.

I asked the horses mouth about 3 years ago about this very issue, and the tech guy told me.

( in roughly these words )

 if it's self assessment,  property income as a uk none resident, the option of submitting a paper return is provided by HMRC, if you chose not to use this, that is your choice and your expense, so not deductible.

read what you want in to that. so i just leave that expense off my return i do,  using third party software. 

That's torn it !!!!!!!!!! ha ha.????

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Orinoco

[Thailand]

Talking of tax rebates. HNRC received my paperwork 9 weeks ago, nothing yet.

 

However- "How long does a HMRC tax refund take? On average, it can take HMRC up to 12 weeks to process a tax refund claim. Then anywhere from several days to 3-4 weeks on top of that to receive your rebate."

 

Up to 4 months!  ????