Thailand to combine Sinovac, AstraZeneca vaccine doses to boost protection - minister

[Surelynot]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/14/who-warns-of-chaos-if-individuals-mix-covid-vaccines

[samtam]

13 hours ago, Midwit said:

Wow sounds like a great life you have built for yourself. Maybe more lockdowns are needed to keep you safe. 

Well, I've been through the excess extremes of life, so it suits me rather well to calm down, take stock and find a coping mechanism for the <deleted> storm outside, which we shall surely have with us for a while.

[rbkk]

Today's policy flip-flop. Some hospitals are cancelling all vaccinations due to confusion about the mixing of vaccines.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2148623/vaccine-policy-switch-leaves-health-services-confused

[John Drake]

16 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes I'm aware Angela did, it was international news. There's several countries doing the same.

 

This to me is far more acceptable than watering down a dose of AZ with a dose of Sinovac

 

 

Both Sinovac and AZ are "lesser quality" vaccines. The entire point is to "boost" them with mRNA vaccines. The Sinovac needs to be paired with an mRNA vaccine just as AZ does. Both are insufficient for the new variant. Adding another weak vaccine on top of a weak vaccine is just two weak vaccines. AZ isn't going to help any more than Sinovac.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, wensiensheng said:

In the long run, more in depth research may save time, money and lives. Jumping at something that initially shows some promise but subsequently might not, is a recipe for eventually having to go back over what has  already been done. 
 

when you are talking millions and millions of people, let alone doses, it’s no small undertaking to redo a lot of it.

It would make sense for CEPI to organize serious trials with various vaccines (as second jab or booster) on top of one or two Sinovac jabs. The results could then be used wherever Sinovac was the dominant vaccine.

[placeholder]

On 7/12/2021 at 9:24 PM, smedly said:

First I know nothing about vaccines and unless studies have been carried out then this combination of two totally different vaccines giving only half of their doses each sounds to me like something a building contractor would come up with the building falling down shortly after - finding out that you cannot mix cement with oil instead of water

 

Both these vaccines need two doses to work - surely giving one dose of each together results in failure for both - apart from the fact that the chinese junk was a failure with two doses anyway aginst recent mutations 

Actually not necessarily. The outcome of mixing 2 vaccines isn't necessarily related to how effective each one is. To use an often misused word, the end result could be synergistic. 

 

Heterologous prime-boost immunization is administration of two different vectors or delivery systems expressing the same or overlapping antigenic inserts.

https://www.who.int/immunization/research/meetings_workshops/Agenda_ebola_primeboost_nov14.pdf?ua=1#:~:text=Heterologous prime-boost immunization is,same or overlapping antigenic inserts.

 

Prime-boost vaccine strategy against viral infections: Mechanisms and benefits

 The reported data suggest that the prime-boost strategy as a combination of vaccines (i.e., heterologous prime-boost) may be better than a single vaccine for protection against infectious diseases. Indeed, in many cases, heterologous prime-boost can be more immunogenic than homologous prime-boost strategy. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26691569/

 

[rbkk]

14 minutes ago, rbkk said:

Today's policy flip-flop. Some hospitals are cancelling all vaccinations due to confusion about the mixing of vaccines.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2148623/vaccine-policy-switch-leaves-health-services-confused

The above link is from 12.20pm and then we have this (Below) at 1pm......another back-track? What are the hospitals and health authorities to do?

 

[John Drake]

1 minute ago, rbkk said:

What are the hospitals and health authorities to do?

Beat their heads against the wall.

[placeholder]

29 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Both Sinovac and AZ are "lesser quality" vaccines. The entire point is to "boost" them with mRNA vaccines. The Sinovac needs to be paired with an mRNA vaccine just as AZ does. Both are insufficient for the new variant. Adding another weak vaccine on top of a weak vaccine is just two weak vaccines. AZ isn't going to help any more than Sinovac.

Not necessarily. Immunology isn't arithmetic. In complex biological systems the whole isn't necessarily the sum of its parts. Look up heterologous prime-boost.

[smedly]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Actually not necessarily. The outcome of mixing 2 vaccines isn't necessarily related to how effective each one is. To use an often misused word, the end result could be synergistic. 

you just won't let this go will you

 

we had this conversation several days ago - why are you bringing it up again 

 

I have already seen studies of AZ and an mRNA vaccine and they looked convincing 

 

I have seen no such studies for AZ (1 dose) and sinovac (1 dose)  and until I do my opinion remains the same 

[smedly]

1 hour ago, rbkk said:

The above link is from 12.20pm and then we have this (Below) at 1pm......another back-track? What are the hospitals and health authorities to do?

 

Prayut's and Anutin's opinion on this is worthless, it doesn't matter what they think, they would be better to keep their uneducated mouths shut and let medical experts make these decissions 100% on medical grounds and science without this political/military interference, what they are trying to do is cover up the mess they have made concerning vaccines - at least Prayut actually questioned it 

 

 

quote from the article -

 

Respected virus expert Yong Poovorawan on Tuesday was adamant using Sinovac and AstraZeneca vaccines in series was safe and effective and Thailand's best option for fighting the fast-spreading Delta variant.

 

Thailands only option considering they don't have enough vaccines and have already ordered a load more Chinese junk - it is either dump it or use it with this fudge

Edited July 14, 2021 by smedly

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

Prayut's and Anutin's opinion on this is worthless, it doesn't matter what they think, they would be better to keep their uneducated mouths shut and let medical experts make these decissions 100% on medical grounds and science without this political/military interference, what they are trying to do is cover up the mess they have made concerning vaccines - at least Prayut actually questioned it 

 

 

quote from the article -

 

Respected virus expert Yong Poovorawan on Tuesday was adamant using Sinovac and AstraZeneca vaccines in series was safe and effective and Thailand's best option for fighting the fast-spreading Delta variant.

 

Thailands only option considering they don't have enough vaccines and have already ordered a load more Chinese junk - it is either dump it or use it with this fudge

Mmmmm fudge!

[De choudens]

On 7/12/2021 at 5:40 PM, ourmanflint said:

So basically wasting all of these AZ vaccines on boosters because the sinovac govt bought turned out to be useless.

Until you stay in Thailand AZ is ok but AZ is not recognized in Europe so better to wait for Moderna or other J&J ...

•  EU 'Vaccine Passport' Doesn’t RecogniseAstraZeneca Vaccines ...

codeblue.galencentre.org › 2021/07/02 › eu-vaccine

Jul 02, 2021 · While the European Medicines Agency (EMA) has approved the Covid-19 vaccine byAstraZeneca (branded Vaxzevria), besides Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson, the EU drug regulator’s approval does not cover AstraZenecadoses made by South Korea’s SK Bioscience orThailand’s Siam Bioscience. 

[steven100]

Well Reuters posted that WHO warns against mixing vaccines .....  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/warns-against-mixing-matching-covid-155019259.html

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by steven100

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

you just won't let this go will you

 

we had this conversation several days ago - why are you bringing it up again 

 

I have already seen studies of AZ and an mRNA vaccine and they looked convincing 

 

I have seen no such studies for AZ (1 dose) and sinovac (1 dose)  and until I do my opinion remains the same 

If your opinion is "I don't know" then I agree with you. Otherwise what scientific basis do you have for your opinion?

[steven100]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

you just won't let this go will you

 

we had this conversation several days ago - why are you bringing it up again 

 

I have already seen studies of AZ and an mRNA vaccine and they looked convincing 

 

I have seen no such studies for AZ (1 dose) and sinovac (1 dose)  and until I do my opinion remains the same 

ok ....  got it Dr Smedly 

[FridgeMagnet1]

On 7/12/2021 at 5:40 PM, ourmanflint said:

So basically wasting all of these AZ vaccines on boosters because the sinovac govt bought turned out to be useless.

Are you being deliberately stupid?

how does using a booster vaccine to increase efficacy to combat variants mean the original vaccine is useless? 
 

all vaccines are going to have booster doses 

[FridgeMagnet1]

3 hours ago, steven100 said:

Well Reuters posted that WHO warns against mixing vaccines .....  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/warns-against-mixing-matching-covid-155019259.html

 

 

 

Nope, they said:

 The World Health Organization's chief scientist has advised individualsagainst mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, saying such decisions should be left to public health authorities.
 

did you even read the article?

[smedly]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

If your opinion is "I don't know" then I agree with you. Otherwise what scientific basis do you have for your opinion?

you are getting very close to my ignore button, which I have another name for 

[FridgeMagnet1]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

If your opinion is "I don't know" then I agree with you. Otherwise what scientific basis do you have for your opinion?

Just let him say “SInovac is <deleted>”

that’s all he wants, I have no idea why

[Tony125]

Thailand preparing to limit exports of its COVID-19 vaccine

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/thailand-preparing-limit-exports-covid-130745277.html

 

Their factory has only been able to make 5---6 mil doses a month, far below the 10 mil  a month they were supposed to make for domestic use.  They will have to stop exporting to other countries.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, smedly said:

you are getting very close to my ignore button, which I have another name for 

Was mine a personal comment? Would a moderator consider it trolling? Was it even mildly impolite? I honestly don't understand what your problem is with what I wrote.

[Bkk Brian]

19 minutes ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Are you being deliberately stupid?

how does using a booster vaccine to increase efficacy to combat variants mean the original vaccine is useless? 
 

all vaccines are going to have booster doses 

Personal insults makes the rest of your post completey void

[smedly]

1 hour ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Nope, they said:

 The World Health Organization's chief scientist has advised individualsagainst mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines from different manufacturers, saying such decisions should be left to public health authorities.
 

did you even read the article?

did you, show me the published study and evaluation 

 

you conveniently omitted parts of the WHO statement that didn't fit your agenda

 

"Individuals should not decide for themselves, public health agencies can, based on available data," she said in the tweet. "Data from mix and match studies of different vaccines are awaited - immunogenicity and safety both need to be evaluated."

[Dario]

My wife, an employee in the local (sub-district) government was informed about about a month or two ago that she would get vaccinated soon with Astra Zeneca. Her appointment day has been set for July 16, but so far, she doesn't know where to get her jab. Looks suspicious to me. Let's see IF she really gets her jab on that date and if she really gets AZ. I told her not to accept Sinovac, if they have changed their mind. I will update if I have news.

[FridgeMagnet1]

2 minutes ago, smedly said:

did you, show me the published study and evaluation 

 

you conveniently omitted parts of the WHO statement that didn't fit your agenda

 

"Individuals should not decide for themselves, public health agencies can, based on available data," she said in the tweet. "Data from mix and match studies of different vaccines are awaited - immunogenicity and safety both need to be evaluated."

That’s what they have done, for crying out loud. 
 

do you actually follow these things before posting? 

[FridgeMagnet1]

5 minutes ago, Dario said:

My wife, an employee in the local (sub-district) government was informed about about a month or two ago that she would get vaccinated soon with Astra Zeneca. Her appointment day has been set for July 16, but so far, she doesn't know where to get her jab. Looks suspicious to me. Let's see IF she really gets her jab on that date and if she really gets AZ. I told her not to accept Sinovac, if they have changed their mind. I will update if I have news.

Why on earth did you tell her not to accept Sinovac? 
 

What are you thinking, seriously?

 

its an effective vaccine that’s available now and will prevent her from getting very ill. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by FridgeMagnet1

[Changbeer4me]

Another story from Australia ABC about Thailand mixing of vaccines.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/thailand-sinovac-astrazeneca-combination-supply-issues/100288920

Edited July 14, 2021 by Changbeer4me

[smedly]

34 minutes ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

That’s what they have done, for crying out loud. 
 

do you actually follow these things before posting? 

you believe what you want - up to you

[smedly]

 

50 minutes ago, Changbeer4me said:

Another story from Australia ABC about Thailand mixing of vaccines.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/thailand-sinovac-astrazeneca-combination-supply-issues/100288920

quote from the article - not much to add really

 

Officials in Thailand referenced a local study in their announcement, but experts say there is no peer-reviewed research on the approach.  

Infectious disease and vaccine expert Tony Cunningham from the Westmead Institute for Medical Research said Delta had "changed the whole scope of things". 

"It's a fairly desperate position for countries that are experiencing Delta surges and you just simply cannot rely on Sinovac alone," Professor Cunningham said.  

"But what they're doing is untested and untried."  

 

 

But as epidemiologist Hassan Vally says, variants have reduced the effectiveness of all vaccines.  

"You've got a vaccine like Sinovac that's 51 per cent effective in the trials, which were testing against the original strain of SARS CoV-2, and now you've got these variants of concern," he said. 

"The immune response elicited by the vaccine is being evaded by these variants, so you're getting reduced effectiveness of these vaccines in the real world, which is why Thailand is seeing what it's seeing and why it's working less effectively against the Delta variant."