Large anti-government demonstration in Bangkok on Sunday

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, khunPer said:

No, it's the same as before, but now they also use that as a cause - and that's why I consider it as "bad timing" and lack of "timely care for others".

When you've had no salary for 18 months, used up any savings you had, promised your life to the bank and don't know where your next meal is coming from - you could be forgiven for not caring too much about the timing.

 

The original protests were against a useless government that had no experience of running a country and who were/are hell bent on keeping the two tier 'have's and have not's' system in place whilst also protecting the interests of the 'elite'. A government that made up its own form of 'democracy' and moulded a constitution in such a way that they are ensured of being in control forever by hoodwinking the electorate into voting for a constitution that guaranteed that.

 

So what's changed?  Is Thailand anything like a true democracy? Are the government doing a good job or running the country?  Have they lived up to the promises they made regarding the vaccine programme?  Have they ensured the poor have at least the basics of life through the current pandemic?

 

I'd suggest that no, they have not so its hardly surprising that the protests have re-started - all the original complaints are still valid + they are now calling out the government on their handling of the pandemic, the failed vaccine programme and the state of the economy.

 

What surprises me is that the protests are not bigger than they are.

Edited August 2, 2021 by KhaoYai

[khunPer]

12 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

When you've had no salary for 18 months, used up any savings you had, promised your life to the bank and don't know where your next meal is coming from - you could be forgiven for not caring too much about the timing.

The companies are screaming for workers according to several news articles, but it seems like a number of Thais don't wish to change profession - I personally know several that rather wait till the tourism reopens, and I also know quite some that are making good money by changing profession, including moving - so if you really wish to do something to improve your life, you can do it.

 

However, some migrant workers are suffering, as they cannot easily move on to another job.

 

Edit/addition: Furthermore many have had the possibility to register for government aid packages beyond any unemployment fees paid from Social Security (first six month). And that might be why, there are not so many protesters.

Edited August 3, 2021 by khunPer

[spidermike007]

Fantastic. The more flac the people can give this toxic regime, the better. Any way to show disapproval, any way to show dissatisfaction, any way to show how much they are despised is very healthy for society right now. Hopefully, they will only escalate. The car mobs are a brilliant idea. The crooked and totally compromised cops cannot cite them for any of the drummed up, totally unjust, repressive (covid social distancing) and nonsensical laws. 

 

Let them have it. Let them know how much we hate them. Go for it. Victory to the youth! Down with the regressive dinosaurs. 

[metisdead]

A post using a trolling image has been removed.

[RocketDog]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:53 AM, mancub said:

The irony of wearing full-face crash helmets....not for safety reasons. but only in a bid to hide their identity ! 

But, good on 'em.....certainly braver than me !

Another issue is that farang participants just gives the authorities a time-tested tool:

Blame disruption on 'outside agitators'.

This mission is for the people, by the people, and of the people of Thailand.

 

[KhaoYai]

15 hours ago, khunPer said:

The companies are screaming for workers according to several news articles, but it seems like a number of Thais don't wish to change profession - I personally know several that rather wait till the tourism reopens, and I also know quite some that are making good money by changing profession, including moving - so if you really wish to do something to improve your life, you can do it.

 

However, some migrant workers are suffering, as they cannot easily move on to another job.

 

Edit/addition: Furthermore many have had the possibility to register for government aid packages beyond any unemployment fees paid from Social Security (first six month). And that might be why, there are not so many protesters.

Perhaps there are 2 Thailands? Or maybe you live in a parallel universe.

 

There is mass unemployment all over the country.  My wife's family, are all out of work and non of them are even vaguely connected to tourism. Luckily she's in the UK with me at the moment but had she still been in Thailand, she'd have had to close her hair salon once again last week! Her friend messaged her today to say she'd just been made redundant, along with 1000 other workers as the clothing factory she works at in Korat closed down. 

 

My brother in law's event hire business has been forced to close for almost all of the last 18 months. As for the government's handouts - a large proportion of the population earn less than the tax and social security thresholds and therefore don't qualify for any aid.

 

The other 'handouts' that the government gave out previously were done totally abritrarily.  There was no check on whether you had money or not, how many kids you had to feed, nothing - you just had to register on a website, a website that was offline more than it was on.  Out of 7 adults in my wife's family, 1 got the payments - I believe it was 5000 baht per month for 3 months.

 

The next 'handout' I'm less clear on but it was something like money sent to the applicant's phone that had to be spent on food and essentials.  Once again the only qualification you needed was to be over 18.  Something like 2 million baht was made available on a few days and it was first come, first serve basis. Once the allocation was used up, that was that.  Those that are worst affected by the downturn had no chance as they either didn't have a phone or had no credit to use it. Both schemes required internet access.

 

With both of the above schemes there were no checks - it was entirely possible for someone with millions in the bank to get a payout whilst someone that was penniless and starving got nothing.

 

I've got to say you are totally out of touch with reality.  Millions of Thai's lived month to month with no savings before the pandemic - often heavily in hock to banks and finance companies.  How do you think those people - some that only earned 7 - 8000 per month previously, are doing now? How long would zero savings last you?

 

You suggest people move? Again, take my brother in law - a really hard working guy, 2 kids both at school in Korat, all his equipment, trucks, tables, chairs etc. etc. sat gathering dust. Unskilled apart from in his business - where would you suggest he goes to find work? There is no bloody work - its not only toursim that's closed down. I don't know which part of Thailand you live in but you really need to get out more - why do you think the baht has been in freefall for the last couple of weeks?

 

Protests?  Prayuth is lucky that Thai people are so tolerant and that they readily help each other out - if these problems were happening in some countries he'd have been dragged out and hanged by now.  However, everyone has their limit - that tolerance may not last much longer, hungry people have little to lose.

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Perhaps there are 2 Thailands? Or maybe you live in a parallel universe.

 

There is mass unemployment all over the country.  My wife's family, are all out of work and non of them are even vaguely connected to tourism. Luckily she's in the UK with me at the moment but had she still been in Thailand, she'd have had to close her hair salon once again last week! Her friend messaged her today to say she'd just been made redundant, along with 1000 other workers as the clothing factory she works at in Korat closed down. 

 

My brother in law's event hire business has been forced to close for almost all of the last 18 months. As for the government's handouts - a large proportion of the population earn less than the tax and social security thresholds and therefore don't qualify for any aid.

 

The other 'handouts' that the government gave out previously were done totally abritrarily.  There was no check on whether you had money or not, how many kids you had to feed, nothing - you just had to register on a website, a website that was offline more than it was on.  Out of 7 adults in my wife's family, 1 got the payments - I believe it was 5000 baht per month for 3 months.

 

The next 'handout' I'm less clear on but it was something like money sent to the applicant's phone that had to be spent on food and essentials.  Once again the only qualification you needed was to be over 18.  Something like 2 million baht was made available on a few days and it was first come, first serve basis. Once the allocation was used up, that was that.  Those that are worst affected by the downturn had no chance as they either didn't have a phone or had no credit to use it. Both schemes required internet access.

 

With both of the above schemes there were no checks - it was entirely possible for someone with millions in the bank to get a payout whilst someone that was penniless and starving got nothing.

 

I've got to say you are totally out of touch with reality.  Millions of Thai's lived month to month with no savings before the pandemic - often heavily in hock to banks and finance companies.  How do you think those people - some that only earned 7 - 8000 per month previously, are doing now? How long would zero savings last you?

 

You suggest people move? Again, take my brother in law - a really hard working guy, 2 kids both at school in Korat, all his equipment, trucks, tables, chairs etc. etc. sat gathering dust. Unskilled apart from in his business - where would you suggest he goes to find work? There is no bloody work - its not only toursim that's closed down. I don't know which part of Thailand you live in but you really need to get out more - why do you think the baht has been in freefall for the last couple of weeks?

 

Protests?  Prayuth is lucky that Thai people are so tolerant and that they readily help each other out - if these problems were happening in some countries he'd have been dragged out and hanged by now.  However, everyone has their limit - that tolerance may not last much longer, hungry people have little to lose.

Thanks for your reply and opinion.

 

We might not read the same news sources.

 

The official unemployment rate is 1.96% (latest number is from March/21), before the pandemic it was 0.92%; for comparison USA is 5.9% and UK 4.7% (June/21). It's normal for Thais to move for work, often from villages to Bangkok or industrial areas, or to tourist sites, so nothing different from normal conditions.

 

Some Thais however don't wish to do certain kind of work as it's considered of low status, often work done by unskilled migrant workers, where there, according to the news articles, are shortage for hundreds of thousands.

 

Social Security says that if you have paid for at least 6 month within a period of 15 month before getting unemployed, you are eligible for 50% of wages for 180 days, for each period. I presume that there is a ceiling of 15,000 baht as full monthly salary, as that is the maximum salary SS is counted from; i.e. 10% is 1,500 baht a month, however it's not specified in the English text from SS. I've not seen a minimum salary mentioned, but minimum amount for SS is 500 baht a month, which equals 5,000 baht; official minimum salary is around 325 baht per day, with little variation depending of province.

 

The Covid pandemic and its restrictions have sadly hit hard all over the World, forcing many business owners to scale down or temporary close. But that has always been a part of the business-owner game, you can gain a lot, a lot more than being an employee, but you also take a risk, a risk for loosing a lot. And yes, it can be hard to be self employed, or business owner - I know it from experience - also partial owners, like shareholders, can loose a lot, and some have during the pandemic.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

Some Thais however don't wish to do certain kind of work as it's considered of low status, often work done by unskilled migrant workers, where there, according to the news articles, are shortage for hundreds of thousands.

My family will do any work - there is no work available.  If you believe the government's unemployment figures, you'll believe anything.  They have been putting out fake figures on many issues since the pandemic began. Didn't you find it strange that for the first year, despite the lack of 40 million tourists, the economy hardly seemed to suffer?  Now, for whatever reason, the economy has finally (officially) taken a dive and continues to sink. 

 

I wouldn't try to quote figures because I don't know and I doubt they are available but whether its sensible or not, a hell of a lot of working class Thais don't pay social security.

 

I tend to ignore official figures, they're usually optimistic whatever the country but I'd suggest that's even moreso in Thailand.  I put my trust in what I see and what I hear - in other words real world, not government BS. 

 

Solely looking at my Thai family, 6 adults are out of work and my wife will also be out of work too if the current restrictions are still in place when she returns to Thailand.  Her business has been over 50% down for most of the last year. These things are not my opinion, they are a fact and are a direct result of the pandemic.  From what my wife tells me I'd suggest that many thousands of families are in the same position.

 

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

The Covid pandemic and its restrictions have sadly hit hard all over the World, forcing many business owners to scale down or temporary close. But that has always been a part of the business-owner game, you can gain a lot, a lot more than being an employee, but you also take a risk, a risk for loosing a lot. And yes, it can be hard to be self employed, or business owner - I know it from experience - also partial owners, like shareholders, can loose a lot, and some have during the pandemic.

That's obvious but its no comfort to people with no money right now. The fact is that thousands of businesses have had to close or lay people off. My brother cannot carry on with his business because the events he usually caters for are banned. Business owners are not getting any assistance and vast numbers of the staff that have lost their jobs are not getting any help from the government and haven't for months.

 

All of this has been taking place whilst the Thai government makes announcements about Moon Missions, infrastructure projects etc. - they live in cloud cuckoo land  They have totally mishandled the situation and its getting worse.

 

Hence the protests.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

My family will do any work - there is no work available.  If you believe the government's unemployment figures, you'll believe anything.  They have been putting out fake figures on many issues since the pandemic began. Didn't you find it strange that for the first year, despite the lack of 40 million tourists, the economy hardly seemed to suffer?  Now, for whatever reason, the economy has finally (officially) taken a dive and continues to sink. 

 

I wouldn't try to quote figures because I don't know and I doubt they are available but whether its sensible or not, a hell of a lot of working class Thais don't pay social security.

 

I tend to ignore official figures, they're usually optimistic whatever the country but I'd suggest that's even moreso in Thailand.  I put my trust in what I see and what I hear - in other words real world, not government BS. 

 

Solely looking at my Thai family, 6 adults are out of work and my wife will also be out of work too if the current restrictions are still in place when she returns to Thailand.  Her business has been over 50% down for most of the last year. These things are not my opinion, they are a fact and are a direct result of the pandemic.  From what my wife tells me I'd suggest that many thousands of families are in the same position.

 

That's obvious but its no comfort to people with no money right now. The fact is that thousands of businesses have had to close or lay people off. My brother cannot carry on with his business because the events he usually caters for are banned. Business owners are not getting any assistance and vast numbers of the staff that have lost their jobs are not getting any help from the government and haven't for months.

 

All of this has been taking place whilst the Thai government makes announcements about Moon Missions, infrastructure projects etc. - they live in cloud cuckoo land  They have totally mishandled the situation and its getting worse.

 

Hence the protests.

I'm sorry for you family.

 

Official statistics from around the World is however the best results to judge facts from - what you see, and what I see, with our eyes might however be extremely individual, also our opinions...????

[billd766]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:06 PM, RocketDog said:

Another issue is that farang participants just gives the authorities a time-tested tool:

Blame disruption on 'outside agitators'.

This mission is for the people, by the people, and of the people of Thailand.

 

How many farangs have been reported at the rallies?

[impulse]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:10 AM, khunPer said:

Taking the Covid-situation, and timely care for others, into consideration, it seems like very bad timing for a demonstration.

Under that premise, the longer the gub'ment can delay the vaccines, the fewer protests they'll have to suffer.

 

[khunPer]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

Under that premise, the longer the gub'ment can delay the vaccines, the fewer protests they'll have to suffer.

 

Your point of view...????

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

what you see, and what I see, with our eyes might however be extremely individual, also our opinions...

Sorry but I'm not giving my opinion - I'm quoting what is going on in the real world, the experience of real people. It's happening throughout Thailand and its affecting millions of people.

 

The pandemic is clearly not the government's fault but dealing with it is and they have failed miserably. The situation with the 'first wave' was more down to luck than judgement in my opinion and I believe the figures were 'adjusted'. I don't think the government's ability was really tested at the time - now they have a much more serious situation.

 

The complaints against the government are serious and well founded.  This latest outbreak has really put them to the test and they have failed miserably.  The Indian variant has taken hold and spread rapidly wherever its been found in the world. Personally, in Thailand, I think it could have been contained to a larger extent, gaining valuable time if they had locked down before Songkran.  By not doing that it was clear what would happen - and it has.

 

As other governments are learning, the only way out of this mess is through a comprehensive vaccine programme. Thailand's much hailed vaccine programme was supposed to start on 7 June but ran into supply problems on day one. Quite what's happening with the local production of the AZ vaccine I don't know - all seems to have gone quiet on that. There is only one person responsible for the current situation on vaccines - this is the first time he's really been tested and he's failed.

 

The results of these failures are a rapidly spreading virus and an economy creeping towards the plughole. Thailand may not have the cash to intervene financially in the way richer countries have but its by no means a poor country and could at the very least made sure its population has the basic necessities for life.  Giving relatively small amounts of cash out without any system for checking need is ridiculous and simply 'box ticking'. Making it only available to those who are 'online' is just unbelievable.

 

The previous complaints against Prayuth's government have been integrated with the people's anger at his handling of the pandemic - that's why they are protesting now.  You may not see it from where you sit but a hell of a lot of people are in dire straits.

Edited August 4, 2021 by KhaoYai

[khunPer]

29 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Sorry but I'm not giving my opinion - I'm quoting what is going on in the real world, the experience of real people. It's happening throughout Thailand and its affecting millions of people.

 

The pandemic is clearly not the government's fault but dealing with it is and they have failed miserably. The situation with the 'first wave' was more down to luck than judgement in my opinion and I believe the figures were 'adjusted'. I don't think the government's ability was really tested at the time - now they have a much more serious situation.

 

The complaints against the government are serious and well founded.  This latest outbreak has really put them to the test and they have failed miserably.  The Indian variant has taken hold and spread rapidly wherever its been found in the world. Personally, in Thailand, I think it could have been contained to a larger extent, gaining valuable time if they had locked down before Songkran.  By not doing that it was clear what would happen - and it has.

 

As other governments are learning, the only way out of this mess is through a comprehensive vaccine programme. Thailand's much hailed vaccine programme was supposed to start on 7 June but ran into supply problems on day one. Quite what's happening with the local production of the AZ vaccine I don't know - all seems to have gone quiet on that. There is only one person responsible for the current situation on vaccines - this is the first time he's really been tested and he's failed.

 

The results of these failures are a rapidly spreading virus and an economy creeping towards the plughole. Thailand may not have the cash to intervene financially in the way richer countries have but its by no means a poor country and could at the very least made sure its population has the basic necessities for life.  Giving relatively small amounts of cash out without any system for checking need is ridiculous and simply 'box ticking'. Making it only available to those who are 'online' is just unbelievable.

 

The previous complaints against Prayuth's government have been integrated with the people's anger at his handling of the pandemic - that's why they are protesting now.  You may not see it from where you sit but a hell of a lot of people are in dire straits.

Thanks for your reply, but it's still an opinion - "Personally, in Thailand, I think it could have been..." - and even that we probably can agree that the situation is serious, then we have different views, and opinions; and that's Okay, and fine we can safely discus it in a forum...????????

 

My opinion is about caring for other people, and that's why I said that "taking the Covid-situation, and timely care for others, into consideration, it seems like very bad timing for a demonstration".

[billd766]

3 hours ago, khunPer said:

Your point of view...????

And mine.

[MrJ2U]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:43 PM, Benmart said:

Conjecture?

Great word.

[KhaoYai]

43 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply, but it's still an opinion - "Personally, in Thailand, I think it could have been..." - and even that we probably can agree that the situation is serious, then we have different views, and opinions; and that's Okay, and fine we can safely discus it in a forum...????????

 

My opinion is about caring for other people, and that's why I said that "taking the Covid-situation, and timely care for others, into consideration, it seems like very bad timing for a demonstration".

Where I refer to 'real world' in the the first paragraph, that is not an opinion, its what I know to be true.

 

When I say things like 'personally' etc. in later paragraphs - i am making the distiction that I am passing an opinion. I though that was clear - its paragraphed.

 

The protestors may or may not have a care for others but I think the fact that so many demonstrated in their cars shows that at least some did.  As for the rest, well, given the situation, I think its excusable.  People do desperate things in desperate times. I think you're wrong to condemn them for it - have you ever had to walk in their shoes?

 

I contrast that with the BLM protests in London last year which I thought were wrong - those people had a serious point to make but they weren't starving.

Edited August 4, 2021 by KhaoYai

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Where I refer to 'real world' in the the first paragraph, that is not an opinion, its what I know to be true.

 

When I say things like 'personally' etc. in later paragraphs - i am making the distiction that I am passing an opinion. I though that was clear - its paragraphed.

 

The protestors may or may not have a care for others but I think the fact that so many demonstrated in their cars shows that at least some did.  As for the rest, well, given the situation, I think its excusable.  People do desperate things in desperate times. I think you're wrong to condemn them for it - have you ever had to walk in their shoes?

 

I contrast that with the BLM protests in London last year which I thought were wrong - those people had a serious point to make but they weren't starving.

Thanks for your reply and explanation, but I still read your first real paragraph, the second in number - in the first paragraph in number you say that it's not opinion, but you are "quoting the real world" - as opinions. You say (my bold)...

The pandemic is clearly not the government's fault but dealing with it is and they have failed miserably. The situation with the 'first wave' was more down to luck than judgement in my opinion and I believe the figures were 'adjusted'. I don't think the government's ability was really tested at the time - now they have a much more serious situation.

 

In  next paragraph...

The complaints against the government are serious and well founded.  This latest outbreak has really put them to the test and they have failed miserably.  The Indian variant has taken hold and spread rapidly wherever its been found in the world. Personally, in Thailand, I think it could have been contained to a larger extent, gaining valuable time if they had locked down before Songkran.  By not doing that it was clear what would happen - and it has.

 

I can agree with a number of your opinions, like the lack of restriction at Songkran, and that a lockdown should have been earlier - immediately in my view, more than once people got time to commute first - but it's still opinions, yours and mine, even that I agree. I didn't notice the "quotes".

 

However, in this thread, the subject is about the demonstrations in Bangkok right now, and my first post in this thread was my view about that, i.e. about "bad timing" and "caring for other people"; but you are welcome to disagree.

 

I also thought that the BLM demonstrations last year in my home country Denmark was wrong at that time due to the Covid-pandemic - and so did a lot of others, actually 77 percent of the Danish population were against demonstrations during the Covid pandemic, if polls can be trusted - luckily nothing happened, apart for a few cases. I have no knowledge about the London BLM-demonstrations.

????