Thai netizens fierily debate Pfizer vaccine for students as anti-vaxxers emerge

[placeholder]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

But where do the non-scientific debaters get their information from?

The problem is that lots of them get it from charlatans and/or loons.

[cdemundo]

12 hours ago, timendres said:

And what about those making reasonable arguments as to why this vaccine is debatable. Their voices are muted, while the pro-vaccine message is amplified. The debate has not been balanced by any measure. It would be more understandable if this virus was on the level of ebola, but it is not. Maybe if governments spent as much time, effort, and money on expanding the healthcare system to be capable of handling the "increased load", as they do pushing the vaccines to those not at exceptional risk, we could end this nonsense of lockdowns and have a more balanced approach to the pandemic overall. Thankfully, it appears that new treatments, such as the new Merck pill, will help to alleviate the pressure on the healthcare system and allow a less radical approach to the problem. 

"The debate has not been balanced by any measure. It would be more understandable if this virus was on the level of ebola, but it is not."

 

Well, you are correct, COVID is not on the level of Ebola.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/about/ebola/ebola-by-the-numbers.html

Ebola total number of cases = 27,000

total number of deaths =11,000

 

It is unimaginably worse.

COVID cases = 237,835,220

COVID deaths = 4,853,198

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/

 

[Scott]

14 hours ago, timendres said:

Indeed. Tired of the "anti-vax" label. People who are a bit dubious of a vaccine technology that failed to garner FDA approval for 15 years, but it suddenly "safe", are simply being prudent. I have had many "traditional" vaccines in my life, but this new technology is something for which I have a "wait and see" approach. Maybe those blindly lining up for the vaccines should be labeled "anti-critical-thinkers".

The earlier mRNA vaccines were never approved because they were never submitted for approval.  It was only used in trials for other diseases.  That, in part, is how we know the technology is safe. 

 

[cdemundo]

10 hours ago, LetsGoBrandon said:

Also note that it is a well known tactic to pose as rabidly anti-vaxx to make outrageous statements about vaxxines in order to paint everyone , even genuine skeptics with valid reasoning as crazy, irrational, out of their minds etc.

Funny how often the "Logical fallacies" or "fallacious arguments" I learned about in high school are used here.

"It's a well known fact"; well in that case I guess any discussion is over.

 

Let me use it, "it's a well know fact that vaccines are safe and effective and anti-vaxxers are crackpots".

Wow, that is a powerful argument.

I guess we can close this thread.

 

[cdemundo]

 

Discussed ad nauseam for the benefit of those who ask questions but don't look for answers.

 

1) The ingredients of the current vaccines are very similar to the ingredients of vaccines used in the past.

Side effects in vaccines used in the past occurred within 2 to 4 months of vaccine administration.

 

2) The mRNA and spike proteins produce are only in the body briefly.

All proteins in the body are rapidly degraded into component parts in days or weeks at most.

mRNA is very fragile, witness the requirements for transportation at cold temps, degrades even faster at body temp.

 

3) The horrible side effects of some prescription drugs occurred with drugs that were taken daily or more frequently for weeks, months, years. They were in the body and maintained at high concentrations for long periods of time.

The vaccines are only in the body for a short period of time and only 1, 2 or possibly now 3 times, weeks apart.

Even flat out poisons have a minimum harmful dose below which they are not dangerous.

 

I have previously posted this arguments with references and anyone really concerned about long term effects would have fond this information in a few minutes of searching.

 

Now of course there is the "anything is possible" argument, if you choose to believe in magical thinking no argument can calm your hysterical fears.

[cdemundo]

6 hours ago, jossthaifarang said:

Mate I am not Antivax at all, I have had plenty in my life and so has my wife and children. I do agree though that people have a right to be weary of experimental vaccines. The term should be Anti-experimental- vaxers. It would be unwise not to ask questions with any new medication you are injecting into your body.

Problem is (IMHO) the "skeptics" ask questions as a rhetorical device but never look into what the answers might be.

All of these threads about COVID would be a lot shorter if the "skeptics" made an effort to inform themselves.

[cdemundo]

 

 

First this is from LetsGoBrandon quoted by 9999999, I couldn't find the original post.

 

"The host cell will then swell with spike proteins, and release them into the blood stream or body fluids outside the cell. "

 

The cell releases the proteins into the extracellular environment where they are degraded as all proteins eventually are.

The mRNA will also degrade even more rapidly, the amount of mRNA coding for the spike protein is limited and there is no source for more, it came from the vaccine right? So the process is limited in time with no mechanism for making it permanent.

 

For DNA vaccines (Johnson & Johnson, AstraZeneca) the vaccine-DNA makes its way into the nucleus of our cells where it begins working (and is treated the same as our own DNA). It is copied into a piece of mRNA that will then travel into the cytoplasm and be translated by ribosomes into spike-proteins. "

 

The DNA makes mRNA and mRNA makes spike proteins which are limited by the same processes as with the mRNA vaccines.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine.html

"The adenovirus pushes its DNA into the nucleus. The adenovirus is engineered so it can’t make copies of itself, but the gene for the coronavirus spike protein can be read by the cell and copied into a molecule called messenger RNA, or mRNA."

 

The adenovirus cannot make copies of itself and so it eventually degrades into its components as well, so it cannot keep making mRNA to produce the spike protein.

 

Did you think you had thought of a problem that never occurred to scientists and MDs????????

 

Brings to mind a cartoon of 3 scientists in the lab, one is looking at a computer and says to the others "Hey I know we have devoted our whole lives to the study of infectious disease, but this guy on Facebook makes a lot of sense."

 

You can call it tinkering but what you seem to have missed is that it is not permanent, all of the introduced and resulting molecules will be degraded in a short period of time.

 

Here are three descriptions of how Moderna, J&J and Pfizer, and AZ work.

Written for the educated layman.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, timendres said:

Their voices are muted, while the pro-vaccine message is amplified.

The anti vaxers seem to present a vocal complaint far in excess of the credibility of their position. So I might suggest the opposite is true..... 

 

Even the 9-11 conspiracy theorists went quiet given time..... 

[ThailandRyan]

9 hours ago, LetsGoBrandon said:

you did the right thing....no one has any right to dissuade someone from taking a vaxxine.

 

AND VICE VERSA.

Show me where anyone is dissuading anyone here in this discussion.  Trying to paste what is very obvious about the efficacy of the vaccines versus the likes of folks who provide baseless claims and misinformation is like walking a fine line her in order to try and meet one in the middle.  You want to believe that your correct well that's fine as I said in an earlier post, but to keep posting misinformation without looking all the information you receive whenever you get a medication either from the doctor or the pharmacy is a fallacy.  Time to agree to disagree and stop pressing your misinformation.

[MaiDong]

15 hours ago, Denim said:

Yes. Went for first pfizer jab today. Quite a few expats and a thousand or more school kids.

Took 4 hours start to finish.

I took our son for his first Pfizer jab yesterday at Siriraj hospital, in and out in less than an hour. 

I also had 2 Pfizer jabs at MedPark hospital early and late Sept, and again, in and out in less than an hour, looks like we were lucky with our timing. 

[cdemundo]

Quote

"But they go through a a process that takes 10 years to get FDA approval. "

 

This is another example of the Big Lie propaganda technique, repeat your lie often and loud and soon people will believe it.

This is repeatedly claimed (the 10 to 15 year figure) but no examples are ever given.

 

Some vaccines have taken a long time to develop and get to the stage where they have shown promise in the pre-clinical stage.

After a vaccine has appeared promising in pre-clinical trials, it is submitted for FDA approval. 

I don't think any vaccine has taken ten years for FDA approval after beginning the process.

There is no standard time specified for vaccine approval by the FDA in any event.

 

The long lead times for some vaccines have been in the process of pre-clinical trials, finding a vaccine formulation that demonstrates promising safety and efficacy. This was not the case for COVID-19 vaccines.

 

The genetic code for the SARS-CoV-2 virus was known and published on the internet in January of 2020 when Chinese scientists submitted the gene sequencing data for posting on Virological.org,

Because of advances in techniques in microbiology it was possible to produce a vaccine that was ready for submittal in a very rapid timeframe.

 

In any event, doubts about the approval process are totally beside the point at this time as we have real world safety and efficacy data on hundreds of millions of vaccine doses that have been administered.

 

[onthedarkside]

An off topic post and a post citing a COVID survival rate without any link to the source info have been removed.

 

[cclub75]

26 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

In any event, doubts about the approval process are totally beside the point at this time as we have real world safety and efficacy data on hundreds of millions of vaccine doses that have been administered.

 

 

Billions of doses are not equal to billions of year...

 

Christ... this is basic arithmetics and logic.

 

Therefore to say "it's safe, because we used 3 billions of doses in 10 months" is totally absurd, and wrong.

 

It's a false reasoning.

 

Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body.

 

So the truth is : you don't know.

 

YOU CAN'T KNOW.

 

Therefore, stop trying to impose your beliefs -and potentially dangerous- and other people.

 

If you're willing to take the bet, take the risk on the long term for yourself, you are free. But do not say it's based on "science".

 

Because it's not.

 

We have exactly 10 months of history of mass injection with Pfizer (Israel started its campaign 19 december 2020). Nothing more.

 

In pharmacology... it's nothing.

Edited October 9, 2021 by cclub75

[TooMuchTime]

 

US CDC Data showing Deaths by Age Group

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

Data from 575,523 deaths. Age group was available for 575,451 (99%) deaths.

 

There are deaths in the lower ages but for 0-17 it is rounded down to 0% in the graph.  18-29 is the next lowest share of death at .6%

 

 

You can also look at the Cases by Age Group and compare to the count of deaths in a given age group.

 

 

 

Can also be used to sort by age, date, death (y/n)

https://data.cdc.gov/d/vbim-akqf/visualization

 

[cdemundo]

16 minutes ago, cclub75 said:

 

Billions of doses are not equal to billions of year...

 

Christ... this is basic arithmetics and logic.

 

Therefore to say "it's safe, because we used 3 billions of doses in 10 months" is totally absurd, and wrong.

 

It's a false reasoning.

 

Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body.

 

So the truth is : you don't know.

 

YOU CAN'T KNOW.

 

Therefore, stop trying to impose your beliefs -and potentially dangerous- and other people.

 

If you're willing to take the bet, take the risk on the long term for yourself, you are free. But do not say it's based on "science".

 

Because it's not.

 

We have exactly 10 months of history of mass injection with Pfizer (Israel started its campaign 19 december 2020). Nothing more.

 

In pharmacology... it's nothing.

"Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body."

 

Long term effects are a different story as you say.

"Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body."

This has been addressed repeatedly on this forum.

 

"Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body."

 

The problem with this statement is that none of the molecules or chemicals are in your body for years or decades.

The contents of the vaccine are not present in you body for more than hours and days.

The spike proteins are only present for weeks at the most.

 

"In pharmacology,.. it's nothing."

What is the extent of your training in pharmacology? 

Because you seem unaware of some pretty obvious problems with your argument.

 

Take note that I did not resort to being insulting as you seem to need to do, doesn't strengthen your argument.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by cdemundo

[onthedarkside]

20 minutes ago, TooMuchTime said:

 

US CDC Data showing Deaths by Age Group

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

Data from 575,523 deaths. Age group was available for 575,451 (99%) deaths.

 

 

 

These are the actual COVID death numbers being reported by the CDC based on age group (the download link is there on the website you listed above), which in fact included hundreds of deaths among the very young age groups.

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

 

Also, those cited 575,000+ death numbers only reflect a portion of the total U.S. COVID death count which now exceeds 700,000, and likely don't tend to include the most recent cases because of time delays. Child COVID infection rates in the U.S. have been spiraling lately.

 

"As of October 6, 2021, a total of 707,065 COVID-19 deaths have been reported in the United States."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

"For the first time during the pandemic, children now account for more than one quarter of new weekly US COVID-19 cases, according to the latest report from the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

 

Nearly 252,000 child COVID-19 cases were reported for the week ending Sep 2, the largest number recorded for children during the pandemic, according to the report. Children accounted for 26.8% of reported weekly US cases.

 

The AAP said this was the largest number of child cases in a week since the pandemic began."

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/us-data-show-child-covid-19-cases-rising-exponentially

[placeholder]

55 minutes ago, cclub75 said:

 

Billions of doses are not equal to billions of year...

 

Christ... this is basic arithmetics and logic.

 

Therefore to say "it's safe, because we used 3 billions of doses in 10 months" is totally absurd, and wrong.

 

It's a false reasoning.

 

Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body.

 

So the truth is : you don't know.

 

YOU CAN'T KNOW.

 

Therefore, stop trying to impose your beliefs -and potentially dangerous- and other people.

 

If you're willing to take the bet, take the risk on the long term for yourself, you are free. But do not say it's based on "science".

 

Because it's not.

 

We have exactly 10 months of history of mass injection with Pfizer (Israel started its campaign 19 december 2020). Nothing more.

 

In pharmacology... it's nothing.

.Your invocation of pharmacology is nonsensical. Long term effects of medications are virtually always due to frequently repeated dosages of the same usually for some persistent or permanent conditions. They are chemicals that the body is exposed to again and again. Vaccines are administered on a very infrequent basis, given in small doses, and rapidly vanish from the body.

 

But if it's long term effects that rationally concern you, scientists are reporting that Covid may be causing type 1 diabetes and kidney disease as well as other chronic effects of long term covid. And it is well known that some viruses like polio and the virus that causes chickenpox, can result in death oran  extremely painful condition years later. That has never been the case for the vaccines used to treat those illnesses or any other vaccines for that matter. So, if your concern about effects arising years later, clearly you would be focussing on subduing the virus and not on vaccines.

Edited October 9, 2021 by placeholder

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

 

These are the actual COVID death numbers being reported by the CDC based on age group (the download link is there on the website you listed above), which in fact included hundreds of deaths among the very young age groups.

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

 

Also, those cited 575,000+ death numbers only reflect a portion of the total U.S. COVID death count which now exceeds 700,000, and likely don't tend to include the most recent cases because of time delays. Child COVID infection rates in the U.S. have been spiraling lately.

 

"As of October 6, 2021, a total of 707,065 COVID-19 deaths have been reported in the United States."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

"For the first time during the pandemic, children now account for more than one quarter of new weekly US COVID-19 cases, according to the latest report from the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

 

Nearly 252,000 child COVID-19 cases were reported for the week ending Sep 2, the largest number recorded for children during the pandemic, according to the report. Children accounted for 26.8% of reported weekly US cases.

 

The AAP said this was the largest number of child cases in a week since the pandemic began."

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/us-data-show-child-covid-19-cases-rising-exponentially

Also, those figures are cumulative since the andemic began. Delta has only been a factor in the USA since June. 

[TooMuchTime]

10 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

 

These are the actual COVID death numbers being reported by the CDC based on age group (the download link is there on the website you listed above), which in fact included hundreds of deaths among the very young age groups.

 

 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

 

Also, those cited 575,000+ death numbers only reflect a portion of the total U.S. COVID death count which now exceeds 700,000, and likely don't tend to include the most recent cases because of time delays. Child COVID infection rates in the U.S. have been spiraling lately.

 

"As of October 6, 2021, a total of 707,065 COVID-19 deaths have been reported in the United States."

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

 

"For the first time during the pandemic, children now account for more than one quarter of new weekly US COVID-19 cases, according to the latest report from the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

 

Nearly 252,000 child COVID-19 cases were reported for the week ending Sep 2, the largest number recorded for children during the pandemic, according to the report. Children accounted for 26.8% of reported weekly US cases.

 

The AAP said this was the largest number of child cases in a week since the pandemic began."

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/us-data-show-child-covid-19-cases-rising-exponentially

I  know there were deaths but the point is they are very minimal.  Over 500k is a good enough sample size.  I expect to see no rise in the rates in the next 6 months.  I have actually used the data set link I posted and showed the death rates decreased in the later half of this year compared to 2020.  This is expected with optimizing treatment methods though.

Discussion of cases doesn't really matter since I am talking about the rate of dying if infected with covid.  I do not see that number increasing at all.  I can guarantee case count will continually increase as time passes.  That is obvious.

 

So children accounted for 26.8% of cases in the article but what percent will die?  Do you expect it to vastly differ form <.1%?

 

 

Taking the two tables and Death/Casegives you these death rates.

 

I think people should focus on the population with a higher death rate.  You know, the people actually dying.

Edited October 9, 2021 by TooMuchTime

[onthedarkside]

12 minutes ago, TooMuchTime said:

I think people should focus on the population with a higher death rate.  You know, the people actually dying.

 

Tell that to the parents of the hundreds of children listed above who have died of COVID in the U.S. I'm sure they'll appreciate the sentiment.

 

National percentages don't mean much, if it's your child that has died...

 

[placeholder]

18 hours ago, LetsGoBrandon said:

Also note that it is a well known tactic to pose as rabidly anti-vaxx to make outrageous statements about vaxxines in order to paint everyone , even genuine skeptics with valid reasoning as crazy, irrational, out of their minds etc.

You mean like that post of yours linking to a video from some proven charlatan who claimed that mRNA vaccines damaged the T-cell system  As I recall, in that same post you accused the MSM of lying about him even though his testimony has been discredited by genuine scientists. 

It seems to me to be a virtually infallible indicator of rabid antivaxxers that they rely almost solely, if not entirely, on videos featuring telegenic confidence men and women.

[TooMuchTime]

2 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

 

Tell that to the parents of the hundreds of children listed above who have died of COVID in the U.S. I'm sure they'll appreciate the sentiment.

 

National percentages don't mean much, if it's your child that has died...

 

Emotional arguments are useless.  Using that emotional argument we should do everything we can to save everyone no matter the cost or risk.  Ban cigarettes, alcohol, have everyone follow a prescribed govt meal, have everyone follow a prescribed life dictated by a small group of trustworthy politicians who have your best interest in mind.

 

Or we can have people make their own decisions and understand the risk factor of actions they may take in life.

 

Don't forget that people can still get a covid vaccine if they want.  The choice isn't force everyone or no one gets it at all.

 

Parents who feel their kid should get the covid vaccine should be able to allow them.  I have no issue with that.  My only issue is coercing or forcing people to take a vaccine, especially for a demographic with a near 0 risk of death.

 

 

[placeholder]

13 hours ago, LetsGoBrandon said:

you did the right thing....no one has any right to dissuade someone from taking a vaxxine.

 

AND VICE VERSA.

So, persuasion and dissuasion are immoral? Really?

[placeholder]

36 minutes ago, TooMuchTime said:

Emotional arguments are useless.  Using that emotional argument we should do everything we can to save everyone no matter the cost or risk.  Ban cigarettes, alcohol, have everyone follow a prescribed govt meal, have everyone follow a prescribed life dictated by a small group of trustworthy politicians who have your best interest in mind.

 

Or we can have people make their own decisions and understand the risk factor of actions they may take in life.

 

Don't forget that people can still get a covid vaccine if they want.  The choice isn't force everyone or no one gets it at all.

 

Parents who feel their kid should get the covid vaccine should be able to allow them.  I have no issue with that.  My only issue is coercing or forcing people to take a vaccine, especially for a demographic with a near 0 risk of death.

 

 

And what about the risk unvaccinated children pose for educators? And health care workers?

[Xonax]

18 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Show me the medium term (5 year) and long term (10 year) data of the effects of these 5 billion vaccinations.

 

I'd even accept 3 year data.

Just wait a few years. If that will not be to late for you. ????????????

[TooMuchTime]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And what about the risk unvaccinated children pose for educators? And health care workers?

They can choose to get the vaccine too.  Health care workers have also been taking precautions for all of 2020 before there was a vaccine.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, cclub75 said:

 

Billions of doses are not equal to billions of year...

 

Christ... this is basic arithmetics and logic.

 

Therefore to say "it's safe, because we used 3 billions of doses in 10 months" is totally absurd, and wrong.

 

It's a false reasoning.

 

Some molecules, chemicals... can take YEARS, or even decades to combine, potentialize with others, interact, and buildup effects within human body.

 

So the truth is : you don't know.

 

YOU CAN'T KNOW.

 

Therefore, stop trying to impose your beliefs -and potentially dangerous- and other people.

 

If you're willing to take the bet, take the risk on the long term for yourself, you are free. But do not say it's based on "science".

 

Because it's not.

 

We have exactly 10 months of history of mass injection with Pfizer (Israel started its campaign 19 december 2020). Nothing more.

 

In pharmacology... it's nothing.

The equal and opposite truth is this.

 

Quote from your post.

 

So the truth is : you don't know.

YOU CAN'T KNOW.

Therefore, stop trying to impose your beliefs -and potentially dangerous- and other people.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, cdemundo said:

This is another example of the Big Lie propaganda technique, repeat your lie often and loud and soon people will believe it.

This is repeatedly claimed (the 10 to 15 year figure) but no examples are ever given.

Here's a few examples, maybe you missed them in your research.

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/timeline

 

https://www.ncirs.org.au/phases-clinical-trials   "COVID-19 vaccines are being rolled out for emergency use authorisation in several countries. However, as there are limited safety data, full registration of the vaccine will only be given after extended safety monitoring, which will take several years.

 

https://research.northeastern.edu/heres-what-it-takes-to-test-a-covid-19-vaccine-with-clinical-trials/ " a process that usually takes three to five years of rigorous testing for safety and effectiveness."

 

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/how-covid-19-leading-innovation-clinical-trials

"On average, vaccine development can take 10-15 years.  "

 

https://www.jnj.com/innovation/the-5-stages-of-covid-19-vaccine-development-what-you-need-to-know-about-how-a-clinical-trial-works

"It can take up to a decade to go from vaccine discovery and development to approval"

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, cdemundo said:

In any event, doubts about the approval process are totally beside the point at this time as we have real world safety and efficacy data on hundreds of millions of vaccine doses that have been administered.

Do we?

 

Can you point me to a website where I can see this data?

[cdemundo]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Do we?

 

Can you point me to a website where I can see this data?

Yes I can, you can search for the number of vaccines administered in the US.

Then you can search for the number of reports of adverse events reported to VAERS.

 

Then you can divide the number of adverse events by the number of vaccinations and get a number something like 1/10 of 1%.

But like all antivax [deleted] you are always asking smart-a$$ questions instead of actually looking for information.

 

AS usual the thing you are asking for has been discussed repeatedly on TVF.