Can Thailand beat Malaysia and Singapore in the race to lure wealthy foreigners?

[lkn]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Had this debate 100s of times but if your saying Thailand is cheap, what your saying is you don't spend money on fine goods and higher end luxury items much. 

Designer brands are maybe 5-10% more expensive in Thailand, and if this is your idea of a rich person (spending their time shopping in IconSiam) then yes, it would be cheaper to do in Europe.

 

But as @The Cipher said, you just buy this stuff when you are in Europe.

 

What I spend on in Thailand are *experiences*, and here Thailand is extremely competitive. You can stay at upscale resorts, dine at fancy restaurants¹, get long treatments at spas, etc. at a fraction of what it would cost in Europe. And some of the “extras” you get here (like free flow of sparkling wine with your brunch, executive lounge at your hotel, etc.) are uncommon in most of Europe, because there is no market for it (due to the price).

 

You can also have a skilled carpenter do custom furniture, a painter do custom artwork, hire a full time maid, etc., again, for prices that are a fraction of what it would be in Europe.

 

¹ Although for restaurants, those catering to “rich people” are generally not those with the most delicious food, but regardless of preference, eating out is much cheaper, even when you go for the fancy ones.

[lkn]

9 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Per Credit Suisse there are approx 50 million millionaires in the world. If Thailand were to get a million of them that would be a 2% take rate, a percentage that strikes me as overambitious

This is probably just a million *net worth*, so a lot of that wealth tied up in real estate and/or retirement fund.

 

But even if you have one million in savings, that isn’t what it used to be. For example a high end condo in Thailand will easily cost you $600k or more, which is more than half your savings.

[BadBouy]

NO!

[kuzmabruk]

12 hours ago, ourdon said:

                                                                              

 

 

                                                                                                    NO!!!

Most sane response to be found on this forum.   The person asking the question "can Thailand compete?" is poor therefore they do not understand what people with money want.  Garbage, smell of sewers, water drainage problems whenever it rains and it rains a lot here, bad roads, bad drivers, bad police, dirt everywhere and in everything, ..... etc. etc. etc.  forever more, this is a country for old guys looking for reasonable non-black girls and for lower to middle class families to enjoy tropical climates.  Not to say there are no rich people visiting Thailand, but they are a unique set of clients - mainly single clients.

[lkn]

11 minutes ago, kuzmabruk said:

The person asking the question "can Thailand compete?" is poor therefore they do not understand what people with money want

I took a Thai girlfriend to Europe, we toured Switzerland, Italy, France, etc. and now she does not understand why I would ever want to visit Thailand.

 

Only downside is that food is not universally good (looking at Switzerland), and it’s heavy on calories.

[Toby1947]

I’m not short of a Bob or two but probably not as wealthy as they are targeting. And one month in that Sh*th+le is enough for me and most others 

[mokwit]

13 minutes ago, lkn said:

Only downside is that food is not universally good (looking at Switzerland), and it’s heavy on calories.

You didn't notice how much it cost?

[Marpa47]

Provide everything and more of expectations and they will come — they couldn’t be stopped!   However, fail to provide and guess what?  Is anyone listening or is complacency / indifference too easy?  Especially if there is no real incentive.  One has to be ‘hungry’ — willing to listen and learn and _then_ take the appropriate action, fail, fall on your face, pick yourself up and try and try again until you’ve got it.  Definitely not the purview of the complacent.  This is the domain of the entrepreneurial spirit.  All The Best dear Kingdom of Thailand.  Wishing well for everyone.  

[lkn]

10 minutes ago, mokwit said:

You didn't notice how much it cost?

This being a thread about attracting wealthy people to Thailand, so no, through that lens, food prices in Europe are not at all an argument for moving to Thailand.

 

Even middle class families have no problem affording dining out in most of southern Europe, and go to fancy restaurants in places like Prague and Budapest.

[thailanddogerator]

Countries where they hand you for smoking a joint ? Yes of course, nobody with a brain dreams to live in dictatorshop Singsing or IntergristMalay !

 

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

This being a thread about attracting wealthy people to Thailand, so no, through that lens, food prices in Europe are not at all an argument for moving to Thailand.

 

Even middle class families have no problem affording dining out in most of southern Europe, and go to fancy restaurants in places like Prague and Budapest.

You specifically mentioned Switzerland, and that was what i was referring to.

[Tony125]

They need tp read the story of never put all your eggs in one basket. Instead of trying to attrack 1 million wealthy tourists, Chinese tourists, Indian tourists, diversify the country --have something for everyone. Can have green Tours for families and tourists who would like to visit jungles, mountains, remote islands ect. Can have shopping tours for rich Chinese, ect who wish to buy things they can't get in their country. Can have Medical tours for those that would like good hospital care cheap. And yes can gave sex tours for the tourists who want to party hearty but keep it in areas away from the prudes and families. Something for everyone.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Tony125

[NanaSomchai]

3 hours ago, lkn said:

¹ Although for restaurants, those catering to “rich people” are generally not those with the most delicious food, but regardless of preference, eating out is much cheaper, even when you go for the fancy ones.

I'd rather eat out at your local Ma and Pa restaurant or the discrete food cart vendor around the street corner, that's more in-line with Thailand's image and enriched experience, but that's just me.

 

Remember what happened on Soi Khao San Road in BKK after the current government decided it was time to kick out all the street food sellers?

[NanaSomchai]

3 hours ago, Toby1947 said:

I’m not short of a Bob or two but probably not as wealthy as they are targeting. And one month in that Sh*th+le is enough for me and most others 

A passed away veteran German friend of Pattaya used to tell me... "Pattaya is a sh!th0le, but it's the World's best sh!th0le".

 

I now think this can be extended to Thailand as a whole.

 

"Thailand is a sh!th0le, but it's the World's best sh!th0le!".

 

[relax33]

16 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Quote

Can Thailand beat Malaysia and Singapore in the race to lure wealthy foreigners?

It depends on what 'wealthy' means. Can Thailand outcompete Singapore for UHNW individuals? Unlikely. Can it outcompete Singapore for folks in the $1-10M asset range? It's possible but will depend on intelligently crafted policy.

 

Should easily outcompete Malaysia at all $1M+ wealth levels.

Think TL needs to improve in many aspects before even thinking of doing  this . .
Malaysia (MY) n Singapore (SG) hv superior infrastructure as they benefited from British town planning in the past which was subsequently improved upon of cos .. 
U almost never find floods in SG n they rarely occur in Peninsula Malaysia too;  unlike the annual flooding events that turn many parts of TL into the Venice of the East .

Govt implementation of public works n policies are easily 10x more efficient than TL ..
Everything is repaired or fixed within a stated time period with no recurrence of the issue thereafter, unlike in TL where they hv been fixing the flood problem in the same area for decades for instance ...
Public policy n govt initiatives are fully implemented to the letter with no serious loop holes, implementation is also far more efficient ..
eg for covid, SG  had been 98% fully vaccinated for weeks while Malaysia achieved 90% vaccination 10 days ago ... while TL is still at 25 - 28%
Corruption is significantly less blatant in MY n is maybe only 0.3% in SG  ..
Cops in MY r definitely not as mafia while those in SG r civil ...
U never have dog problems in MY n SG n the roads r definitely many times safer in MY n super safe in SG ..

U can openly complain about any govt officer including the police chiefs n the complaint will be quickly looked into .. especially if its conveniently leaked to the press to stoke things up ... n the lists goes on ....

The only significant thing TL has for it is the lower price of villas but MY is not too far off n property in MY hv better quality ...
eg the walls n floors in MY Condo r far thicker (built to British Standards, not Thai BS standards .. ) n u never have sound insulation issues ..
Of the 3, Malaysia has the best value for $, n of cos both SG n MY allow foreigners to purchase property directly ...
But the Upper Classes in all 3 countries r ethnic Chinese, 70-90% of the local economy in all 3 countries r controlled by the Chinese ..

So all 3 r not for the Super Anti-Chinese crowd even if they can afford it ... for it makes no sense for them to be  contributing to the wealth of a race they blatantly dislike just by being there !!!

eg in TL, 7-11, Makro, Tesco Lotus, Big C, Central Festival, Robinson's , the phone companies, major banks , > 90% of the property developers r all owned by the Chinese ... 
The land n shops where the walking streets, pubs n nightlife areas r also mostly owned by the Chinese ; so one literally cannot avoid enriching them as long as one is in TL ...

N if some one says that there is a difference between the Thai Chinese n a Chinese tourist from China ... 
Yeah, get REAL, the only difference is that one came earlier while the other one came later ... ha 
But of cos, Ignorance is Bliss ...  

Edited October 14, 2021 by relax33

[Elkski]

Why so much talk before action.  Why so much of the government ideas have a thick accent of greed and not a welcoming for all tone?

How could any rich person be attracted to such a mixed up country with no real direction.  Money only safe in the bank at 1 million if that. Air quality and visibility so bad in so much of the country for years and zero real measures taken so far. 

Pesticide measurements so high in much of the food supply. Everywhere uses the cheapest palm oil. MSG so common. 

Just look at the elite visa holders who couldn't get back in Thailand during covid or now 18 months later could do a sandbox.  How attractive is it when so much has closed down?  How will all these empty businesses buildings look in 5 years.  Even pre covid open businesses didn't care for maintenance very much.   Why has the government been so stingy supporting it's people during covid if it has so much foreign reserves? Tourist numbers near zero so they create a new 15usd entry fee.  Look at the country's flood control system.  It's like everything, focused on protecting the elite. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Elkski

[natway09]

Having lived in both Singapora & Malaysia I have no interest in returning to either except for a holiday 

or a business meeting.

The "really wealthy" will continue to come & go into Thailand but to invest to get a long term visa,

very few 

 

[JCP108]

Can Thailand lure any foreigners?

[The Cipher]

4 hours ago, NanaSomchai said:

I'd rather eat out at your local Ma and Pa restaurant or the discrete food cart vendor around the street corner, that's more in-line with Thailand's image and enriched experience, but that's just me.

So actually I agree with this. But the thing that I think many forumers miss is that they assume that the nebulous 'wealthy foreigner' will not also find the Thai experience charming. That's why you see so many posts here about how 'wealthy foreigner' would never put up with Thailand's idiosyncrasies. Which I assert is false. In fact, one thing I like about Bangkok is that I can have multiple different lifestyle experiences even within the span of one day.

 

Have said this a bajillion times, but wealthy people aren't a uniform population. Thailand will appeal to some percentage of them, the only question is how many will want to commit in some way to the country? The one million people assumption the gov makes works out to about 2% of all millionaires. That's probably too high. If you assume they'll convince a quarter percent or half a percent of all global millionaires to pick up one of the new visas, that's 125,000-250,000. Intuitively that feels a like a more realistic range.

 

8 hours ago, lkn said:

This is probably just a million *net worth*, so a lot of that wealth tied up in real estate and/or retirement fund.

 

But even if you have one million in savings, that isn’t what it used to be. For example a high end condo in Thailand will easily cost you $600k or more, which is more than half your savings.

Sure. But I guess the point I'd argue is that from the perspective of the gov, these guys would still have the ability and probable willingness to contribute more to the economy than shoestring pensioner? I can understand why the gov would view them as a more desirable demographic generally also, regardless of finances.

[lkn]

57 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

The one million people assumption the gov makes works out to about 2% of all millionaires. That's probably too high. If you assume they'll convince a quarter percent or half a percent of all global millionaires to pick up one of the new visas, that's 125,000-250,000. Intuitively that feels a like a more realistic range

I don’t think we can distill a lot from “number of people with a net worth above US$1M”. As you say yourself, it’s a diverse group. For example, a lot in this group will have family and/or a job, and a long-term stay in Thailand is  just not possible/practical for them.

 

I think a better way to estimate how many wealthy people Thailand can attract, is by looking at what they managed to do in the past and extrapolate.

 

End of 2019 they had 8,602 holders of the Thai Elite Visa. This was their best year, with about 1,500 new sign-ups.

 

Those 1,500 were probably from people who were already frequent visitors, and bought the visa for practical reasons, or said another way, of the close to 40 million tourists in 2019, they managed to sell the Thai Elite Visa to 1,500 of them.

 

So I think attracting even 100,000 “wealthy tourists” (for a long-term stay) is highly unrealistic, when they could only get 1.5% of that, pre-pandemic.

 

53 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Sure. But I guess the point I'd argue is that from the perspective of the gov, these guys would still have the ability and probable willingness to contribute more to the economy than shoestring pensioner? I can understand why the gov would view them as a more desirable demographic generally also, regardless of finances.

It makes perfect sense to want wealthy tourists that can contribute to the economy. But it’s just naive to think they can attract more than they currently do, without taking serious steps to improve the living comfort in their cities. And to put out a number like a million, that is just ridiculous, and makes the government seem clueless.

 

What they should rather do is pass laws (and budgets) to move toward the goal of making Bangkok (and Chiang Mai) attractive to wealthy world citizens, because at least in my book, they are falling way behind other cities.

[The Cipher]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

I don’t think we can distill a lot from “number of people with a net worth above US$1M”. As you say yourself, it’s a diverse group. For example, a lot in this group will have family and/or a job, and a long-term stay in Thailand is  just not possible/practical for them.

 

I think a better way to estimate how many wealthy people Thailand can attract, is by looking at what they managed to do in the past and extrapolate.

 

End of 2019 they had 8,602 holders of the Thai Elite Visa. This was their best year, with about 1,500 new sign-ups.

 

Those 1,500 were probably from people who were already frequent visitors, and bought the visa for practical reasons, or said another way, of the close to 40 million tourists in 2019, they managed to sell the Thai Elite Visa to 1,500 of them.

 

So I think attracting even 100,000 “wealthy tourists” (for a long-term stay) is highly unrealistic, when they could only get 1.5% of that, pre-pandemic.

Fair enough point. I wasn't aware of the number of Elite holders and would've expected more holders.

 

I do think that the proposed visa options are more attractive than Elite, but don't think that they are 10x more attractive. If the quoted Elite numbers are accurate, then it does seem that 100k would be a stretch.

[simon43]

11 hours ago, NanaSomchai said:

...

"Thailand is a sh!th0le, but it's the World's best sh!th0le!".

 

TAT could use that as their new slogan!

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, relax33 said:

Think TL needs to improve in many aspects before even thinking of doing  this . .
Malaysia (MY) n Singapore (SG) hv superior infrastructure as they benefited from British town planning in the past which was subsequently improved upon of cos .. 
U almost never find floods in SG n they rarely occur in Peninsula Malaysia too;  unlike the annual flooding events that turn many parts of TL into the Venice of the East .

Govt implementation of public works n policies are easily 10x more efficient than TL ..
Everything is repaired or fixed within a stated time period with no recurrence of the issue thereafter, unlike in TL where they hv been fixing the flood problem in the same area for decades for instance ...
Public policy n govt initiatives are fully implemented to the letter with no serious loop holes, implementation is also far more efficient ..
eg for covid, SG  had been 98% fully vaccinated for weeks while Malaysia achieved 90% vaccination 10 days ago ... while TL is still at 25 - 28%
Corruption is significantly less blatant in MY n is maybe only 0.3% in SG  ..
Cops in MY r definitely not as mafia while those in SG r civil ...
U never have dog problems in MY n SG n the roads r definitely many times safer in MY n super safe in SG ..

U can openly complain about any govt officer including the police chiefs n the complaint will be quickly looked into .. especially if its conveniently leaked to the press to stoke things up ... n the lists goes on ....

The only significant thing TL has for it is the lower price of villas but MY is not too far off n property in MY hv better quality ...
eg the walls n floors in MY Condo r far thicker (built to British Standards, not Thai BS standards .. ) n u never have sound insulation issues ..
Of the 3, Malaysia has the best value for $, n of cos both SG n MY allow foreigners to purchase property directly ...
But the Upper Classes in all 3 countries r ethnic Chinese, 70-90% of the local economy in all 3 countries r controlled by the Chinese ..

So all 3 r not for the Super Anti-Chinese crowd even if they can afford it ... for it makes no sense for them to be  contributing to the wealth of a race they blatantly dislike just by being there !!!

eg in TL, 7-11, Makro, Tesco Lotus, Big C, Central Festival, Robinson's , the phone companies, major banks , > 90% of the property developers r all owned by the Chinese ... 
The land n shops where the walking streets, pubs n nightlife areas r also mostly owned by the Chinese ; so one literally cannot avoid enriching them as long as one is in TL ...

N if some one says that there is a difference between the Thai Chinese n a Chinese tourist from China ... 
Yeah, get REAL, the only difference is that one came earlier while the other one came later ... ha 
But of cos, Ignorance is Bliss ...  

What you wrote may be true, but I wouldn't want to live in Malaysia, and Singapore is too sterile and expensive.

For all its faults, Thailand is the cheese for many of us, though I doubt we fit the government's desired profile.

[Excel]

Never in a million years. Next absurd question ?

[Sticky Rice Balls]

On 10/13/2021 at 6:12 PM, Albert Zweistein said:

What about a country wide clean up ?

mai dai--solly--cannot.....i go sleep now

[timberpond]

It's simple. Give all foreigners already in Thailand 100M Baht and see how many leaves immediately then you will know if 1M wealthy foreigners is going to come. 

[relax33]

49 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What you wrote may be true, but I wouldn't want to live in Malaysia, and Singapore is too sterile and expensive.

For all its faults, Thailand is the cheese for many of us, though I doubt we fit the government's desired profile.

You r so right, what matters is to find a place that best suits the individual  ..

What I was trying to point out is that its isn't fair to compare TL to the other two based on factual attributes  ...

So if TL were to really be in a  "race" to attract high net worth individuals,  than it would have lost even before the race begin, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing for expats living there as there will be less snobbish folks moving in n inflation can be kept in check longer   ...

Edited October 15, 2021 by relax33

[newnative]

8 hours ago, The Cipher said:

So actually I agree with this. But the thing that I think many forumers miss is that they assume that the nebulous 'wealthy foreigner' will not also find the Thai experience charming. That's why you see so many posts here about how 'wealthy foreigner' would never put up with Thailand's idiosyncrasies. Which I assert is false. In fact, one thing I like about Bangkok is that I can have multiple different lifestyle experiences even within the span of one day.

 

Have said this a bajillion times, but wealthy people aren't a uniform population. Thailand will appeal to some percentage of them, the only question is how many will want to commit in some way to the country? The one million people assumption the gov makes works out to about 2% of all millionaires. That's probably too high. If you assume they'll convince a quarter percent or half a percent of all global millionaires to pick up one of the new visas, that's 125,000-250,000. Intuitively that feels a like a more realistic range.

 

Sure. But I guess the point I'd argue is that from the perspective of the gov, these guys would still have the ability and probable willingness to contribute more to the economy than shoestring pensioner? I can understand why the gov would view them as a more desirable demographic generally also, regardless of finances.

     Certainly true that from the government's prospective a millionaire likely will 'contribute more' than a shoestring pensioner.  I would argue, though, that the government should be aiming somewhere in between the two.  And, trying to attract more expats like me, and all the expat friends that I know, living here year-round. 

     None of us drive Lambos but we all own nice, late model regular cars.  None of us own mansions but we all own nice condos or houses, some of us several.  We employ gardeners and maids, pool cleaners, and use and pay many other service workers as we maintain our cars, fix up our homes, entertain and feed ourselves, attend to our health needs, and more.  Thailand, and its local workers, would be better off if the government could attract a dozen of us for every millionaire.  

[The Cipher]

37 minutes ago, newnative said:

None of us drive Lambos but we all own nice, late model regular cars.  None of us own mansions but we all own nice condos or houses, some of us several.  We employ gardeners and maids, pool cleaners, and use and pay many other service workers as we maintain our cars, fix up our homes, entertain and feed ourselves, attend to our health needs, and more.  Thailand, and its local workers, would be better off if the government could attract a dozen of us for every millionaire.  

Fair and well said. The lifestyle you described is basically what I would expect for a household with $1-3M in net assets spending a material part of each year (3mths+) in Thailand. Assuming you and your friend group are relatively well put together I do agree that the country would benefit from more immigrants like you who would be willing to to commit year-round and put down roots.

[mokwit]

8 hours ago, lkn said:

Those 1,500 were probably from people who were already frequent visitors, and bought the visa for practical reasons

I think more likely people who wanted to stay here year 'round but were under 50, unmarried, and didn't want to start a 'visa business'