Phuket immigration very strict on retirement extension requirements

[Jenkins9039]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:01 PM, xylophone said:

Make sure all of your retirement extension paperwork is in "full working order" as the saying goes, and the reason I'm posting this is because of what has happened to a friend of mine here, and also on advice from my bank manager.

 

This friend went to renew his retirement extension and has had 900k baht in the bank, untouched, for a few years now, and also spends over a million baht per annum here.

 

However when the I/O checked out his paperwork he refused to issue the retirement extension, saying that my friend had to bring in 65k on a monthly basis to qualify and he hadn't done that, however he brought in 120k every two months for his living expenses, but he was refused.

 

The puzzling thing is that every year he has sailed through using the same modus operandi, and we were trying to work out why he had been refused this time.

 

The only thing we could think of was that his 900k was in a deposit account (as it always had been in the past without a problem) so they were discarding this as not relevant and as he didn't bring in a regular 65k EVERY MONTH, and as I said, he was refused the retirement extension.

 

Mine is due any day, so I went to my bank manager who usually does all the paperwork for me and he said that he would copy all my bank book pages from the past year, which he had never done in the past, mainly because Phuket immigration were being very strict about requiring it and he said he had several farangs coming back to him wanting exactly the same thing because Phuket immigration were demanding it, whereas in the past 6 months past pages had sufficed.

 

I also gave him my book with 800k in it to copy and he said he would copy it for the full year, just to be on the safe side.

 

My friend was in a quandary because it's not as if he could easily go back to his own country and come back in again and start afresh with the process of getting a new retirement extension, given the Covid restrictions etc, so he used a local agent who wanted a copy of his bank book with the 900k in it and a total of 22,000 baht to process everything, which they did and he got it back on the same day.

 

As I mentioned earlier, my extension is due on Monday and I have tried to comply with everything that I possibly can on their instruction list, but as he said, this particular I/O was very grumpy and although he had accepted all of my friends paperwork in the past, this time it wasn't good enough, so I hope I don't get this particular I/O.

 

If I do and there is something wrong, then at least I know I can use an agent, and for what it's worth, it may well be easier to bypass all of this hassle and stress by just letting an agent handle it for me, and then I can spend my 800k and not have to worry about bringing funds in from my home country to live on for a while.

 

So if you're going fo

Thought it was 65,000 per month OR 800,000 set aside for 4 months... When did the rules change?

 

Sucks to be an old fart dancing to IO tune but the rules are the rules.

[skatewash]

11 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Thought it was 65,000 per month OR 800,000 set aside for 4 months... When did the rules change?

 

Sucks to be an old fart dancing to IO tune but the rules are the rules.

It is 65,000 baht per month transferred internationally into your Thai bank account.  Or it is 800k minimum balance 2 months before you apply and 3 months after you apply, 400k minimum balance required for the rest of the year.  This last has been in effect for about 2 years.  

The US, UK, and Australia embassies unilaterally decided to stop issuing embassy income letters so citizens of those countries must do monthly transfers of minimum 65,000 baht in to their Thai banks every month.

You need two letters from your bank:

 

1) establishing that you own the account in your name only and the balance as of the letter date.

2) 12 month bank statement stamped/signed by bank showing all transactions (for lump sum bank balance method) or showing 12 monthly transfers of minimum 65,000 baht from overseas (for the income method).  

If you are from one of the countries still allowing embassy letters you could get a letter indicating you meet the 65,000/month minimum income and that would be sufficient.

[Jenkins9039]

21 minutes ago, skatewash said:

If you are from one of the countries still allowing embassy letters you could get a letter indicating you meet the 65,000/month minimum income and that would be sufficient.

Thanks for clearing that up, no i am elite visa but was confused as always thought it was one or the other.

[JustAnotherFarang]

On 10/16/2021 at 3:28 PM, xylophone said:

However after my friend's strange encounter, I am quite prepared to get knocked back and would have absolutely no problem in using an agent and paying the 22k baht (of which the agent, in front of my friend, gave 20k to the I/O, and the agent had the rest) because I could then spend the 800k which has been laying just about dormant, and it would save me bringing funds over from NZ for quite a while.

There are cheaper agents, 18,000 baht was the cheapest price I found but a more established company charged 19,000 and the following years renewal is 14,000, I had no problems whatsoever, great service

[tracker1]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:22 PM, skatewash said:

The requirements for getting a retirement extension of stay at Phuket Immigration are very strictly enforced.  So I make my life easier by finding out what the requirements are and following them strictly.  I find it very helpful to use the website set up by the Phuket Immigration Volunteers that contains very good information about what is required in order to get all sorts of extensions of stay including the retirement extension.

http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/

 

For years Phuket Immigration has required two (2) documents from your Thai bank.  One is the standard letter that shows you are the owner of a bank account, details of the account, and the balance on the date the letter is written.  The second is a signed/stamped bank account statement for twelve (12) months.  I forget how much these two documents cost but is in the range of 200-300 baht depending on the Thai bank involved.  Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this.  So knowing this I try to apply for my retirement extension 45 days before my permission to stay expires.  Why wouldn't you want to do this earlier rather than later?  You have time on your side if there are any problems.

These are the requirements (as can be confirmed by reading the earlier link).  However, I usually try to understand the reason these are the requirements.  So what follows is my understanding of why we are asked to do what we are asked to do when proving that we have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 12 months. 

The standard bank letter establishes that the bank account exists, is in our name only, and that we are the owner of it.  The 12-month bank statement establishes that we have complied with the minimum balance requirements.  The minimum balance requirement for a banked lump sum method are as follows:

• At least 800k in the bank account for two (2) months prior to application for extension
• At least 800k in the bank account for three (3) months after application for extension
• At least 400k in the bank account for the rest of the year.

So, the 12-month bank statement is the means by which an immigration officer can determine if you followed these requirements.  But why is a bank signed/stamped bank statement required rather than just copies of pages in your bank account passbook?  I mean, aren't they the same?  Actually they are only the same if you have updated your bank passbook on a regular basis.  If you haven't then it is possible to get Combined Transactions in your passbook.  Combined transactions include numerous transactions that occurred without your passbook being updated.  The Combined transaction entry shows the net effect of all those undocumented transactions on your bank balance.  It is impossible to determine from this entry whether your bank balance dipped below the minimum balance requirements.  That is why they insist on a 12-month bank statement. 

Even then, they often want to see your bank passbook.  Sometimes, often actually, they will want to see signed copies of your passbook covering the last 12 months.  Why is this?  When you are trying to assess the validity of evidence you look at multiple sources for that evidence.  The standard bank letter says the balance on the date the letter was issued was such and such.  Does the bank statement say the same thing?  Does the bank passbook say the same thing?  The bank statement says that the balance never dipped below the minimum balances.  Does the bank book confirm that? 

I look at this process as getting the immigration officer to a place where he or she has a warm and fuzzy feeling that the evidence you present is valid.  Could it all be faked?  Of course.  There is nothing that can't be faked (including passports and true love).  But how difficult, how much work is it, to fake three separate things:  signed/stamped bank letter, signed/stamped bank statement, bank passbook? 

So, what happened to your friend?  I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site.  I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years).  I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved.

You do NOT have to bring money into Thailand according to the rules for the monthly deposit method (65,000 baht/month every month), IF you are doing the lump-sum banked money method (800,000 baht in the account, subject to minimum balance requirements).  He would have known that if he had familiarized himself with the requirements.  Did he get a garbled, confusing, explanation from the immigration officers as to why he was being refused an extension?  Probably.  That's why your understanding of the process needs to be as good as an immigration officer, so you can comprehend what in the world they are trying to tell you.  So you can understand what the issues are, what their concerns are.

Also, it needs to be said that immigration officers can ask you any question they want to inform their assessment of whether you are going to get a retirement extension or not.  For example if your bank balances meet all the minimum balance requirements it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on?  Where does it come from?  Do you work in Thailand?  Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on.  For example, my account for immigration purpose shows very little activity.  The money just sits there, earning interest every month.  I rarely put money in, I rarely take money out.  If that's all I show to the immigration officer it could raise the question about what I am living on.  For that, I have another account that shows money being transferred in on an irregular basis with international labeling.  Money being withdrawn on an irregular basis to pay my day to day expenses.  Money being debited by my internet provider, electricity provider, etc.  I usually will make copies of that bank passbook in case they want to see that.

To paraphrase Jerry McGuire, you need to help the immigration officers help you.  It's in your interest.  The easier their job is the easier it is for me to get what I want, a retirement extension.

Or you can pay 22,000 baht to an agent and they can do what you couldn't do.  The agent likes this and the immigration officers like this as they get part of that 22,000 baht.  It's a win-win situation.  Except I wouldn't be happy paying 22,000 for something that I know should cost exactly 1,900.  But it's Thailand, so up to you. ????

As I said in a previous post I attained the two items from the bank on the same morning I attended the Immigration Office and was told to go and deposit some money and get another copy of my bank book a deposit was made the month previous. I did what was required on their information sheet apparently I come to the conclusion some there are incapable of reading a bank statement !

 

[skatewash]

10 minutes ago, tracker1 said:

As I said in a previous post I attained the two items from the bank on the same morning I attended the Immigration Office and was told to go and deposit some money and get another copy of my bank book a deposit was made the month previous. I did what was required on their information sheet apparently I come to the conclusion some there are incapable of reading a bank statement !

 

I have never needed to show a banking transaction on the day of application for my retirement extension in Phuket.  However, it sounds like it would be a good idea to do that.  It can't hurt and if they do ask for it you already have it.  My particular bank branch won't produce my standard letter and 12-month bank statement while I wait but they prefer to do it overnight and I come back the next morning pick it up, then head to Phuket Immigration.  I can certainly do a transaction while I'm at the bank and update my passbook before going to immigration.  Not a bad idea.

Actually cashiers at Bangkok Bank (maybe even the passbook updating machine, too) can cause a balance forward (b/f) transaction to be printed on your passbook.  It's exactly what it sounds like, just prints out your current balance on dated today.  Maybe other banks can do this too.  Or you can do a deposit or withdrawal and then update the passbook.  All these things are rather simple to do and if they make the immigration officer more confident that I've complied with the requirements I don't have a problem doing it, whether it's a formal requirement or not.

[KKr]

On 10/17/2021 at 2:20 PM, xylophone said:

So the point about one being suspected of aiding and abetting the facilitation – money – cycle falls by the wayside because of this.

It can easily be argued that this information only exacerbates the suspicion.

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Can't wait for the next episode! Best of luck!

 

"Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin".

 

You may remember that beginning to a UK radio programme for kids, can't remember exactly which one, though it may well have been Noddy and Big Ears or Sooth and Sweep!!

 

Got to the bank and the bank manager had the printouts waiting for me, and he had to initial every page as well as put the bank's stamp on them and I reckon there were about 30 pages in all, mostly computer printout type pages, which they don't seem able to do at my branch?

 

I gave him my two bank books to update yet again, which he did, along with a covering letter saying god knows what (because I can't read Thai) and I set off for Phuket immigration.

 

The guy outside of room 103 wasn't the usual smallish slim guy with glasses, but was a very helpful guy whom I'd never seen before, and he along with his two young girl assistants sorted through my paperwork to make sure it was okay, before I had to sign yet another form about acknowledging overstay stuff etc.

 

Then into the office to get my paperwork checked and I sat there whilst the I/O thumbed through page after page after page after page after page after page – you get my drift.

 

He then signed everything off and gave my passport and a signed document to the lady in front, who was shortly going to take my photograph – – all fine until then BUT, and here's something I didn't know and I don't know how many others did, so I will broach the subject here.

 

It has often been said that we are allowed a few days grace after the date of the retirement extension, and for the 90 day report, and I've seen this on other threads, so it is widely believed. So imagine my surprise when the I/O asked me for 1900 baht for the extension and 1500 baht overstay charge!!

 

I explained that my retirement extension ended on Saturday and of course they were closed, and the bank had promised me the printouts on the Monday, but didn't deliver them until today, and then I rushed down to immigration with all of the forms.

 

However that didn't cut the mustard, so I had to fork out 3400 baht in all, and said nothing.

 

Whilst I was doing my stuff there, I noticed two other farangs who had large piles of documents/paperwork and wondered if there couldn't be a simpler way?

 

Anyway I had my fingerprints registered and photograph taken, and I have to go back tomorrow to pick up the passport in the afternoon as well as get a re-entry permit, which I don't mind because it gives my little car a little run out, travelling from Patong to immigration.

 

So there you have it, the end of the saga, or at least I hope so and I've learned a couple of things from it, and hopefully others will have too: 

 

– – if you bank with Bangkok Bank then you may wish to give yourself a couple of weeks leeway before requesting printouts of your statement.

– – On the day of picking up the copies from my bank, the manager updated my books there and then, even though they had been done the day before (possibly a trap for young players, as the saying goes) just to be on the safe side.

– – You have seven days after the end of your 90 day report in which to report and do the necessary paperwork. No charge..

– – You don't have any days grace (perhaps one if they are feeling in a good mood) after the end of your retirement extension, and they can and most likely will charge an overstay fee.

– – Agents are accepted and in many cases recommended by the I/O's (as per my example in a previous post).

 

So I'm all set for another year and to celebrate, tonight I may well open a lovely bottle of Torre Rracina Nero D'Avola Leggermente Appasite Italian wine (where the grapes have been dried slightly before being fermented, which gives the wine a little extra body and depth).

 

I telephoned my friend after my latest experience and he was pleased that I had "sailed through" although still totally in the dark as to why he was refused.

 

So I suppose this thread can be closed now and it certainly has stirred up some feelings both for and against agents, and for my part I'm very pleased to know that I have an option with regards to renewing my retirement extension.
 

2 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

After my 2 Leo's and half a bottle of J.J.McWilliams' Shiraz last night, I can definitely say it's not healthy!

I am usually okay with that as every night I drink at least half a bottle of a good hearty red, followed by a large glass of port or something similar, but the problem comes when I start drinking beer when I'm out and about, so I have to watch that.

[skatewash]

Well, congratulations on your extension!

I don't think it says this anywhere but generally it's considered good form to not be on overstay when you apply for an extension of stay.  But if you are, it usually works out as you've stated (as long as it's very short duration).  By law you are supposed to be fined 500 baht per day you are in overstay status, so it sounds like you were properly fined for your 3 day overstay.  (Of course, overstays can turn out very differently if you are caught on overstay rather than effectively turning yourself in, such as substantial fines capped at 20,000 and possible deportation and banning if it goes on long enough.)

Not sure why I feel it's necessary to say this again, but I do. ????  You can go for your extension of stay in Phuket 45 days before your permission to stay ends.  If you go exactly 45 days before you will be granted an extension of stay with a new permission to stay of a year + 45 days.  In other words, when applying for an extension of stay you don't lose any days from your previous extension of stay.  If you go ASAP many weird things can happen, expected and unexpected, and you won't be impacted because you will have time on your side.  If you go late things can happen.  

Anyway, good advice on Bangkok Bank.  Go early and allow at least a week for the 12-month statement.  Also, good idea to update passbook(s) on day of application (Bangkok Bank can do this with a balance forward transaction (b/f)) at other banks you may have to da deposit or withdrawal.  You do have seven (7) calendar days grace period to do a late 90-Day Report (after your due date), without penalty when done in person.  You don't have any grace days for overstay, although possibly a one day overstay may not result in a fine of 500 baht but your overstay will be noted in your passport most likely.  Overstay is to be avoided, nothing good comes from it.  And again, you have 45 days in Phuket to get an extension of stay done before you go on overstay.  And of course, agents are accepted, one might even say welcomed with open arms by immigration, as long as you're willing to pay one.

[JetsetBkk]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherFarang said:

but a more established company charged 19,000

Name?

 

2 hours ago, tracker1 said:

some there are incapable of reading a bank statement

Yes, they don't appear to notice the date range at the top of the statement and only look at the dates of the transactions, which could be months old.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

Overstay is to be avoided, nothing good comes from it.

No s..t Sherlock............Jeez, talk about stating the obvious!

 

Have never overstayed in the 16 years I've been doing the retirement extension and never intended to this time, but the date of the extension end was on a Saturday and the bank stuffed up with getting my transaction report, so out of my hands to a certain extent.

 

That is why I suggested to my "avid followers" that they should leave plenty of time to get the report, especially if it is from Bangkok Bank, even though I gave the bank five working days to get my report, their excuse was that there was a holiday in the middle of the week previous and that's why it was late (by the way this holiday was not shown on every calendar, nor was it known about by many Thai folk I know).

 

Something happened which makes me believe that some of this stuff to do with immigration is pure luck and/or hit and miss........I mentioned the guy who was dealing with the I/O next to me and he did not have 12 months of transaction reports from his bank, although, like me, he did have 800k in a deposit account, so I told him that it would take a week for his bank to do that for him and he left immigration about the same time as I did.

 

About half an hour later I bumped into him in Tops (Central) and we spoke, and I asked if he had "ordered" the report from his bank and his reply stunned me; "no I don't have to do that because the I/O let me off having to do it!!!!!!!".

 

So the I/Os have discretion to deal with a situation as they see fit, which made me think about the poor old Italian guy who had fallen below his minimum for a couple of days and whose extension was refused, even though he had just transferred over one million baht into his account, and my friend who had to use an agent.

 

Well, this is TIT where we have to be prepared for anything.

[Kopitiam]

9 hours ago, xylophone said:

For the past 16 years of renewing my retirement extension on my own, I have never paid anything other than the norm, this despite having a few grumpy I/Os making things difficult for me (I have posted about them, so they are there for all to see).

 

One of these was where the I/O wanted a 500 baht "bribe" for something which should have been free, and when I queried it, he made my life hell. Yet whilst there are folks on this thread who rail against people using the agent route, because they say it is encouraging corruption, some of these people have suggested that I should have paid the 500 baht bribe and let things go, in order to make things easy on myself??

 

So which way is it? I think it's important to remember that immigration have designed a process in which they have built a loophole. These are the people that control whether I stay here, and in my case whether I continue to see and support my Thai daughter, or whether I leave the country, so they control my future here.

 

The fact is that they have designed a system which has a loophole to allow expats to stay here, even going as far as to recommend an agent if one doesn't have the financial requirements (which I do), and this was what was said to me one time when I was doing my 90 day report and I mentioned that my retirement extension was due shortly; "Papa, if you don't have enough money for your retirement extension, then come and see me and I can fix it for you".

 

So agents are part and parcel of the mix whether one likes it or not, although I have never used one.

 

I started this thread because a friend of mine had to use an agent because he was refused an extension by an I/O, and he is still not sure why, but it was impossible for him to go back to his own country and do a re-entry, so he paid the agent and it was done for him.

 

In my case, I got a call from my friendly bank manager last night telling me that my transaction reports for my bank accounts were waiting for me to pick up, which I will do today and then trundle off to immigration, complete with all of the forms filled out as per immigration requirements, and all of the bank paperwork filled out as per immigration requirements and see what happens.

 

Hopefully it will be plain sailing, but should I get any hassle, then I have the phone number of an agent and I will phone them.

 

I do have the means to be able to fulfil the financial requirements here, in fact many times over, and would gladly do so if I am able.

 

There have been some helpful posts, but some have been unhelpful, with one even going so far as to write a couple of "books" about what should be done and what shouldn't be done, even though I have successfully completed the process far more times than he has! He even offered some investment advice, which I had to smile at given my previous position, LOL.
 

Yes, I will do whatever I have to do in order to stay here and support my Thai daughter and secure her future.

 

And for the record I won't have to miss drinking red wine for a month because that scenario doesn't feature for me, and my calculation is that I can go on spending my 1.2 million baht per annum here until I reach the age of 103, which would probably be a bit of a stretch, however drinking red wine is supposed to be healthy, in moderation, so who knows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

 

9 hours ago, xylophone said:

The fact is that they have designed a system which has a loophole to allow expats to stay here, even going as far as to recommend an agent if one doesn't have the financial requirements (which I do), and this was what was said to me one time when I was doing my 90 day report and I mentioned that my retirement extension was due shortly; "Papa, if you don't have enough money for your retirement extension, then come and see me and I can fix it for you".

I beg to defer calling it a loophole.  I would call it flexibility.  
The process gives the superior officer some discretion in certain deserving circumstances.  Unfortunately, officers started to abuse this responsibility.

I take the IO's comments positively when no monetary amount was demanded up front.  
Let me share with you my personal experience with Phuket Immigration office when we first came.  My wife was applying for an extension (Retirement) 30 days before expiry of stamped visa entry.  We had a Joint bank account then.  It was rejected because a Joint bank account was not allowed.  We asked to see the superior officer.  He advised us to open a new individual bank account for my wife and come back to see him in a month.  It was approved even the money in the new bank account was not seasoned for 3 months.  No money was demanded.  This is true discretion.

 

In general, I am very satisfied with the services of the Phuket Immigration office.  Through the years, they have expanded and modernised (only drive-in booth for 90-day reporting in Thailand) for the convenience of the expat community here.  Yes, there are some strict and inflexible IOs.  But they are just doing their job.

[xylophone]

2 minutes ago, Kopitiam said:

I beg to defer calling it a loophole.  I would call it flexibility.  

You can call it what you like, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!

[JetsetBkk]

 

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

"Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin".

 

You may remember that beginning to a UK radio programme for kids, can't remember exactly which one

 

 

????

 

[Retdent]

Good news, enjoy your red!

[Andre0720]

5 hours ago, skatewash said:

It is 65,000 baht per month transferred internationally into your Thai bank account.  Or it is 800k minimum balance 2 months before you apply and 3 months after you apply, 400k minimum balance required for the rest of the year.  This last has been in effect for about 2 years.  

The US, UK, and Australia embassies unilaterally decided to stop issuing embassy income letters so citizens of those countries must do monthly transfers of minimum 65,000 baht in to their Thai banks every month.

You need two letters from your bank:

 

1) establishing that you own the account in your name only and the balance as of the letter date.

2) 12 month bank statement stamped/signed by bank showing all transactions (for lump sum bank balance method) or showing 12 monthly transfers of minimum 65,000 baht from overseas (for the income method).  

If you are from one of the countries still allowing embassy letters you could get a letter indicating you meet the 65,000/month minimum income and that would be sufficient.

The second or third time I went to the Immigration Office in Phuket town, I showed again my certified statement from the bank, showing 12 international transfers of over 70,000 a month. Then this IO just looked at my documents and said: 'Oh, now you need an embassy letter showing proof of income'. He looked at the dates on my passport, and said again, the same as he said the last time I was there, that we still have time... Time is fleeting. I need to send proof of income now to satisfy my embassy in Bangkok, certainly the same proof of income that I already gave to this IO in Phuket town. How long will the Embassy and Consulate need, it says one or two weeks. And how many of these additional requirements will be thrown at me... I have 3 weeks left on my permission to stay.

It is then that I realized that the efforts made by Immigration were aimed at a failure to meet the requirements.

So I went back to my Agent, who made everything so easy..

[KarenBravo]

5 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

The second or third time I went to the Immigration Office in Phuket town, I showed again my certified statement from the bank, showing 12 international transfers of over 70,000 a month. Then this IO just looked at my documents and said: 'Oh, now you need an embassy letter showing proof of income'. He looked at the dates on my passport, and said again, the same as he said the last time I was there, that we still have time... Time is fleeting. I need to send proof of income now to satisfy my embassy in Bangkok, certainly the same proof of income that I already gave to this IO in Phuket town. How long will the Embassy and Consulate need, it says one or two weeks. And how many of these additional requirements will be thrown at me... I have 3 weeks left on my permission to stay.

It is then that I realized that the efforts made by Immigration were aimed at a failure to meet the requirements.

So I went back to my Agent, who made everything so easy..

They want people to use the 800k in the bank method, or use an agent.

[skatewash]

6 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

The second or third time I went to the Immigration Office in Phuket town, I showed again my certified statement from the bank, showing 12 international transfers of over 70,000 a month. Then this IO just looked at my documents and said: 'Oh, now you need an embassy letter showing proof of income'. He looked at the dates on my passport, and said again, the same as he said the last time I was there, that we still have time... Time is fleeting. I need to send proof of income now to satisfy my embassy in Bangkok, certainly the same proof of income that I already gave to this IO in Phuket town. How long will the Embassy and Consulate need, it says one or two weeks. And how many of these additional requirements will be thrown at me... I have 3 weeks left on my permission to stay.

It is then that I realized that the efforts made by Immigration were aimed at a failure to meet the requirements.

So I went back to my Agent, who made everything so easy..

What country are you from?  If your country's embassy provide citizens with income verification letters, then usually immigration insists on seeing that letter.  If you are from one of the countries that stopped doing the income verification letter than immigration should have accepted your bank letter showing 12 months worth of transfers.

[Kopitiam]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

"Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin".

 

You may remember that beginning to a UK radio programme for kids, can't remember exactly which one, though it may well have been Noddy and Big Ears or Sooth and Sweep!!

 

Got to the bank and the bank manager had the printouts waiting for me, and he had to initial every page as well as put the bank's stamp on them and I reckon there were about 30 pages in all, mostly computer printout type pages, which they don't seem able to do at my branch?

 

I gave him my two bank books to update yet again, which he did, along with a covering letter saying god knows what (because I can't read Thai) and I set off for Phuket immigration.

 

The guy outside of room 103 wasn't the usual smallish slim guy with glasses, but was a very helpful guy whom I'd never seen before, and he along with his two young girl assistants sorted through my paperwork to make sure it was okay, before I had to sign yet another form about acknowledging overstay stuff etc.

 

Then into the office to get my paperwork checked and I sat there whilst the I/O thumbed through page after page after page after page after page after page – you get my drift.

 

He then signed everything off and gave my passport and a signed document to the lady in front, who was shortly going to take my photograph – – all fine until then BUT, and here's something I didn't know and I don't know how many others did, so I will broach the subject here.

 

It has often been said that we are allowed a few days grace after the date of the retirement extension, and for the 90 day report, and I've seen this on other threads, so it is widely believed. So imagine my surprise when the I/O asked me for 1900 baht for the extension and 1500 baht overstay charge!!

 

I explained that my retirement extension ended on Saturday and of course they were closed, and the bank had promised me the printouts on the Monday, but didn't deliver them until today, and then I rushed down to immigration with all of the forms.

 

However that didn't cut the mustard, so I had to fork out 3400 baht in all, and said nothing.

 

Whilst I was doing my stuff there, I noticed two other farangs who had large piles of documents/paperwork and wondered if there couldn't be a simpler way?

 

Anyway I had my fingerprints registered and photograph taken, and I have to go back tomorrow to pick up the passport in the afternoon as well as get a re-entry permit, which I don't mind because it gives my little car a little run out, travelling from Patong to immigration.

 

So there you have it, the end of the saga, or at least I hope so and I've learned a couple of things from it, and hopefully others will have too: 

 

– – if you bank with Bangkok Bank then you may wish to give yourself a couple of weeks leeway before requesting printouts of your statement.

– – On the day of picking up the copies from my bank, the manager updated my books there and then, even though they had been done the day before (possibly a trap for young players, as the saying goes) just to be on the safe side.

– – You have seven days after the end of your 90 day report in which to report and do the necessary paperwork. No charge..

– – You don't have any days grace (perhaps one if they are feeling in a good mood) after the end of your retirement extension, and they can and most likely will charge an overstay fee.

– – Agents are accepted and in many cases recommended by the I/O's (as per my example in a previous post).

 

So I'm all set for another year and to celebrate, tonight I may well open a lovely bottle of Torre Rracina Nero D'Avola Leggermente Appasite Italian wine (where the grapes have been dried slightly before being fermented, which gives the wine a little extra body and depth).

 

I telephoned my friend after my latest experience and he was pleased that I had "sailed through" although still totally in the dark as to why he was refused.

 

So I suppose this thread can be closed now and it certainly has stirred up some feelings both for and against agents, and for my part I'm very pleased to know that I have an option with regards to renewing my retirement extension.
 

I am usually okay with that as every night I drink at least half a bottle of a good hearty red, followed by a large glass of port or something similar, but the problem comes when I start drinking beer when I'm out and about, so I have to watch that.

 

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

It has often been said that we are allowed a few days grace after the date of the retirement extension, and for the 90 day report, and I've seen this on other threads, so it is widely believed. So imagine my surprise when the I/O asked me for 1900 baht for the extension and 1500 baht overstay charge!!

Xylophone, for 90-day reporting there is a general rule of 14 days before and 7 days after but not for extension of stay.  You are lucky that they did not throw you into the IDC for caught by Immigration for overstaying.  Everywhere you read threads advising people on overstay to go straight to the airport and not to be stopped by the police.  IO's discretion saved your day.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:01 AM, xylophone said:

900k was in a deposit account (as it always had been in the past without a problem)

seems like the problem is that the 900K are in a deposit account.

this has allways been a problem for non-O visa.

the 900 or 800K must be in savings account, because they must be ready to be spent.

so your friend should start the while non-O application, this time with his 900K baht

in the liquid savings account.

[skatewash]

Just now, skatewash said:

What country are you from?  If your country's embassy provide citizens with income verification letters, then usually immigration insists on seeing that letter.  If you are from one of the countries that stopped doing the income verification letter than immigration should have accepted your bank letter showing 12 months worth of transfers.

Yes, they want their jobs to be as easy as possible.  Also, they would be perfectly happy if all people used agents, they greatly prefer to deal with agents for all the reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

However, if something is allowed by the rules and you know what the rules are and you know what their interpretation of the rules are and you comply with that you can almost always get approved.  

[xylophone]

Just now, Kopitiam said:

 

Xylophone, for 90-day reporting there is a general rule of 14 days before and 7 days after but not for extension of stay.  You are lucky that they did not throw you into the IDC for caught by Immigration for overstaying.  Everywhere you read threads advising people on overstay to go straight to the airport and not to be stopped by the police.  IO's discretion saved your day.

Oh come on now Kopitiam, do you honestly believe what you have written?

 

With my extension of stay ending on Saturday, the earliest time after that, that I could have got it renewed was on the Monday, but the bank didn't come up with the goods, so it had to be Tuesday.

 

So I turned up at the immigration office complete with all of the paperwork and my passport and presented myself for processing. And of course I've been here for 16 years and following all of the rules.

 

Now that is a far cry from someone who has been arrested for overstaying and has been trying to hide from the authorities, and for which they get everything they deserve.

 

Do you really think I was going to head to the airport, avoiding police on the way, to leave the country in which I have lived for 16 years and head overseas for missing one day – – really, really???

 

We live in different universes I'm afraid, and the I/O's discretion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Kopitiam]

5 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Oh come on now Kopitiam, do you honestly believe what you have written?

 

With my extension of stay ending on Saturday, the earliest time after that, that I could have got it renewed was on the Monday, but the bank didn't come up with the goods, so it had to be Tuesday.

 

So I turned up at the immigration office complete with all of the paperwork and my passport and presented myself for processing. And of course I've been here for 16 years and following all of the rules.

 

Now that is a far cry from someone who has been arrested for overstaying and has been trying to hide from the authorities, and for which they get everything they deserve.

 

Do you really think I was going to head to the airport, avoiding police on the way, to leave the country in which I have lived for 16 years and head overseas for missing one day – – really, really???

 

We live in different universes I'm afraid, and the I/O's discretion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

We live in different universes I'm afraid, and the I/O's discretion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

It has everything to do with I/O's discretion.  The I/O don't have to care how you end up with your predicament.  It is your responsibility to renew your extension of stay not later than the expiry date.  Rules are rules.  Just like ducks.

 

Nothing personal.  Glad that you got your extension without engaging an agent.  Cheers.

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

seems like the problem is that the 900K are in a deposit account.

this has allways been a problem for non-O visa.

the 900 or 800K must be in savings account, because they must be ready to be spent.

so your friend should start the while non-O application, this time with his 900K baht

in the liquid savings account.

The trouble with stories about something happening to a friend is that the friend is not around to answer questions, people don't often know what they are doing, and people sometimes give wrong information based on misunderstanding.

The general principle of the 800k minimum bank balance is that it needs to be in something where the principal is not at risk and where it can be immediately withdrawn.  For example, a savings account would be the perfect example.  Fixed deposits or fixed term accounts can also be suitable, as the principal is not at risk and some allow money to be withdrawn immediately (often forfeiting earned interest on the amount withdrawn).  I've used both successfully at Phuket Immigration.

In my opinion, immigration officers like their job to be as easy as possible.  If I go in with fixed deposit account where the only thing the IO has to do is look at a single page of a fixed-deposit passbook to see that 800,100 baht was deposited into the account and a year later 809,000 baht is still in the account and there is only one entry for 9,900 interest earned it is very easy to check.  They have to scan about three entries to figure out my balance never dipped below 800,000 over the course of the last 12 months.

Contrast this with me going in with 4 bank books each at a different bank and each passbook having 5 pages of entries.  The IO is not going to be happy.  There is a lot to check.  It's like balancing the books for a small business or doing a sudoku puzzle, because figuring out if I ever dipped below 800k or 400k at a time when it was not allowed is anything but straightforward.   I guarantee you the IO is going to be grumpy.  I try not to make my IO grumpy.

I'm not saying the first way is the only legal way to go and the second way isn't legal, but the first way certainly makes the IO's job easier, and the second way isn't going to earn you much good will.  I accept that the IO is supposed to check certain things, that's his job, and I do the best I can consistent with my own interests to make his job as easy as possible to do.

[Andre0720]

40 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Yes, they want their jobs to be as easy as possible.  Also, they would be perfectly happy if all people used agents, they greatly prefer to deal with agents for all the reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

However, if something is allowed by the rules and you know what the rules are and you know what their interpretation of the rules are and you comply with that you can almost always get approved.  

I am from Canada.

I could have asked for an Embassy letter, yes.

But always a question of time here.

If one thinks about what is happening here at the Immigration Office, you might conclude that all the processes are administered by CLERKS. And clerks have just about no discretionary authority.

Clerks follow the rules, that is what they do.

But when I go to the IO, I expect to be greeted by an Officer, someone who has discretionary powers.

If anyone in this forum would have a company, for example dealing with Import-Export, and you would suggest that this company  should deal only with people having enough money to do business starting at 800,000$. You see where I am going now.

Then a regular customer meets one of your sales rep, wants to make a purchase, but his bank statement shows that his balance was only at 750,000$ for a while.

Then you learn that your sales rep made you lose an important sale, because of such small detail about the rule not being adhered to.

I think the the next step for you would be to get rid of this CLERK, and replace him with an OFFICER, someone who can make good business decisions.

Rules are rules, well, I do not believe that.

How about 'rules were made to be broken', if it is to the advantage of the business authority.

When rules are broken in a way that can lead to compromising the business objectives, then get a better OFFICER.

Thailand wants and needs foreigners. How about getting OFFICERS trained for that purpose.

[Kopitiam]

5 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

I am from Canada.

I could have asked for an Embassy letter, yes.

But always a question of time here.

If one thinks about what is happening here at the Immigration Office, you might conclude that all the processes are administered by CLERKS. And clerks have just about no discretionary authority.

Clerks follow the rules, that is what they do.

But when I go to the IO, I expect to be greeted by an Officer, someone who has discretionary powers.

If anyone in this forum would have a company, for example dealing with Import-Export, and you would suggest that this company  should deal only with people having enough money to do business starting at 800,000$. You see where I am going now.

Then a regular customer meets one of your sales rep, wants to make a purchase, but his bank statement shows that his balance was only at 750,000$ for a while.

Then you learn that your sales rep made you lose an important sale, because of such small detail about the rule not being adhered to.

I think the the next step for you would be to get rid of this CLERK, and replace him with an OFFICER, someone who can make good business decisions.

Rules are rules, well, I do not believe that.

How about 'rules were made to be broken', if it is to the advantage of the business authority.

When rules are broken in a way that can lead to compromising the business objectives, then get a better OFFICER.

Thailand wants and needs foreigners. How about getting OFFICERS trained for that purpose.

 

6 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

Rules are rules, well, I do not believe that.

How about 'rules were made to be broken', if it is to the advantage of the business authority.

When rules are broken in a way that can lead to compromising the business objectives, then get a better OFFICER.

This is what is happening in the Immigration Offices in the whole of Thailand.  Rules are not being followed.  Every office has their own interpretation of the rules and sometime even IOs in the same office have different opinion.  You are approaching this from running a business point of view.  It doesn't work that way.

[Andre0720]

50 minutes ago, Kopitiam said:

 

This is what is happening in the Immigration Offices in the whole of Thailand.  Rules are not being followed.  Every office has their own interpretation of the rules and sometime even IOs in the same office have different opinion.  You are approaching this from running a business point of view.  It doesn't work that way.

Yes, they are referred to as 'rules'. But in reality, they are simply statements put together by people with little experience, who have been put in a position of authority, and this is difficultly challenged in Thailand,

So documents are being provided, some with similar titles, but listing different information, mostly not exhaustive, sometimes contradictory, NOT DATED, not titled properly, not disseminated to the same recipients, no indication of documents being superseded, and so on.

Mass confusion.

I used to be in that field.

So I see just a big mess of documentation not reaching a target audience, not in a timely manner, and not in a methodical way.

So small wonder people have difficulty following those so-called rules.

And in my country, regarding income tax information, rules etc, you can find someone who is able to cancel a rule.

Regarding rules and regulations for government business, you can find someone in a position to bend a given rule.

I was there, I know.

These people were governed by one simple thought: 'Is it reasonable to not apply the rule in this instance?'.

An Officer can do that. A Clerk, no.

[KarenBravo]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

Oh come on now Kopitiam, do you honestly believe what you have written?

 

With my extension of stay ending on Saturday, the earliest time after that, that I could have got it renewed was on the Monday, but the bank didn't come up with the goods, so it had to be Tuesday.

 

So I turned up at the immigration office complete with all of the paperwork and my passport and presented myself for processing. And of course I've been here for 16 years and following all of the rules.

 

Now that is a far cry from someone who has been arrested for overstaying and has been trying to hide from the authorities, and for which they get everything they deserve.

 

Do you really think I was going to head to the airport, avoiding police on the way, to leave the country in which I have lived for 16 years and head overseas for missing one day – – really, really???

 

We live in different universes I'm afraid, and the I/O's discretion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I think you're wrong on this. There is a reason that they give you up to 45 days before the expiry date. There really is no excuse to go into overstay. 

Kopitiam is correct by claiming that only the 90 day report has a grace period of seven days, but NOT if you are doing it online. If you elect to do a 90 day report online it can be done 15 days to three days before due.

[skatewash]

3 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

I think you're wrong on this. There is a reason that they give you up to 45 days before the expiry date. There really is no excuse to go into overstay. 

Kopitiam is correct by claiming that only the 90 day report has a grace period of seven days, but NOT if you are doing it online. If you elect to do a 90 day report online it can be done 15 days to three days before due.

Regarding the 90-Day Report, you can do online from 15 days to 0 days before the report is due.  In other words, you can do it on the day it is due.  I've done it that late before.  Mostly I try to do it 14 days before the due date.  

At one point before it was changed it had to be done from 15 days before to 7 days before the due date.  Then during covid that was changed to from 15 days to 0 days before the due date.

[Kopitiam]

42 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

Yes, they are referred to as 'rules'. But in reality, they are simply statements put together by people with little experience, who have been put in a position of authority, and this is difficultly challenged in Thailand,

So documents are being provided, some with similar titles, but listing different information, mostly not exhaustive, sometimes contradictory, NOT DATED, not titled properly, not disseminated to the same recipients, no indication of documents being superseded, and so on.

Mass confusion.

I used to be in that field.

So I see just a big mess of documentation not reaching a target audience, not in a timely manner, and not in a methodical way.

So small wonder people have difficulty following those so-called rules.

And in my country, regarding income tax information, rules etc, you can find someone who is able to cancel a rule.

Regarding rules and regulations for government business, you can find someone in a position to bend a given rule.

I was there, I know.

These people were governed by one simple thought: 'Is it reasonable to not apply the rule in this instance?'.

An Officer can do that. A Clerk, no.

Andre0720, you cannot compare what you have in Canada to Thailand.  In Thailand, most of the time the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.  Having said that, laws and policies are passed by parliament and gazetted before they become legal.  Everyone has the same set of document.  If a clerk rejects you, you can always ask to speak to an officer.  Whether the officer wants to speak to you is another matter.