Siam Commercial Bank moving into Crypto, why aren't you?

[LoveThai94]

Bitcoin opened the door to a lot of tech by exposing block chain.

That said bitcoin is not the only crypto.

Major banks are testing the crypto idea right now, not everyone make this public.

 

If you have shares in banks you might even own stakes in crypto.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, ThLT said:

It's an example. I thought by using something as simple as building houses you'd understand.

I knew it was an example, but when I used examples you claimed my examples were not creating value, that's why I asked for a definition. 

 

If you define "creating value" as you understand it, I can formulate an argument about what does and does not satisfy your definition. 

 

If you want to define creating value as building homes, then no, crypto is not creating value, but there are people building homes with the money they make from crypto, yes?  

 

 

[ThLT]

It's about creating new value. Not converting value. More value than what you started with.

 

With the raw materials for building a house, and a newly built house, clearly the brand new house consists of more value.

 

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

crypto is not creating value

????

 

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

but there are people building homes with the money they make from crypto, yes?  

Sure, but where does the extra money come from? From selling a speculative asset. The surplus money is due to speculation.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by ThLT

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

 

And if they are actually backed, why are they refusing to submit to a proper audit? Contrary to what they promised in the past. They also refuse to reveal any of their partners, or even what commercial papers they are holding. This doesn’t make any sense, if they are actually running a legit business.

I believe from memory the reason why they didn't have a full reserve for a short while when this whole thing started is because the US government managed to get one of their bank accounts frozen, once the account was frozen it then became very urgent for the southern district of NY to get a full proof of backing, you see they had just had the bank account frozen so they knew this was not possible.

 

This is the very definition of a manufactured crime by the prosecutors going after something political - that appears to be how they roll in the SDNY, they make something happen (freeze a bank account) which then triggers something they think they need to investigate.

 

Now - why don't they hand over a full list of bank accounts for the US government to get frozen?

Why would they? They know what will happen, more accounts will be closed down on false pretenses by rogue politically motivated prosecutors.

 

 

[lkn]

27 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

If you define "creating value" as you understand it, I can formulate an argument about what does and does not satisfy your definition. 

I don’t think you can give an all-encompassing definition that wouldn’t be too broad or somewhat subjective.

 

The general understanding though is that value is created when you take inputs, such as materials and labour, and create an output, such as a product or services, that is worth more than the sum of the inputs. And you can determine this, by simply looking at the business’ profit and loss statement.

 

For bitcoin, people are just reselling, therefore we should instead compare it to an arbitrage business. For example, you can create value by buying bulk and transporting the product nearer the customer, and then sell at a profit. The value created for the customer in this case was transportation. You can also buy rice when the prices are low, and then sell them at a profit, when the price goes up, the value provided here was storage.

 

But rather than trying to give an exhaustive definition of value creation, why don’t you tell us, what value bitcoin is creating? And please don’t give the infinite chain of people keep selling at a profit, that is basically the definition of a speculative bubble: People buy only with the intent to resell at a higher price. This only works with products for which there is a final consumer, e.g. with the rice example above, we are not reselling the rice hundreds of times, and making a profit on each sale, we are storing the rice until prices goes up (because of low supply), and then we are selling into the market of people who actually need to eat this rice, and not just resell it again.

 

This ties together with your previous comment about how the price is determined by supply and demand: All demand is based on speculation about future demand, with no actual consumer in sight, so it’s nonsensical.

[lkn]

39 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I believe from memory the reason why they didn't have a full reserve for a short while when this whole thing started is because the US government managed to get one of their bank accounts frozen

I believe what you are remembering was Bitfinex, which used Crypto Capital Corp. for shadow banking, and with Crypto Capital Corp. being involved with money laundering and drug traffickers, they got their accounts frozen, which left Bitfinex without enough liquidity to satisfy customer withdrawal demand (they had $850M with CCC).

 

There is an infamous leaked chat between Bitfinex and Crypto Capital Corp., where the Bitfinex guy is pleading to get some millions back.

 

But Bitfinex and Tether was basically the same team, so they ended up paying out Tether reserves to Bitfinex customers.

 

Here is the gist of the CFTC press release:

 

“[…] the Tether order finds that […] Tether reserves were not “fully-backed” the majority of the time. The order further finds that Tether failed to disclose that it included unsecured receivables and non-fiat assets in its reserves, and that […] Tether reserves were not audited […] Tether […] comingled reserve funds with Bitfinex’s operational and customer funds; […] Tether and Bitfinex’s combined assets included funds held by third-parties, including at least 29 arrangements that were not documented through any agreement or contract, and that Tether transferred Tether reserve funds to Bitfinex, including when Bitfinex needed help responding to a “liquidity crisis.”

 

Note that this is from back when USDT market cap was only a few billions, today it is almost $80B.

 

39 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Now - why don't they hand over a full list of bank accounts for the US government to get frozen?

And what about the commercial papers they are holding? Basically they won’t say anything about anything, and yet they proclaim to be industry leaders in transparency (yes, seriously!)

 

There are limits to how much benefit of doubt you can give them, because they sure are acting exactly like someone with something to hide, and it would be so easy to remove some of this doubt without subjecting themselves to being shut down by the U.S., on the contrary, the largest fear among regulators and lawmakers right now is that Tether is unbacked and that is why they are starting to become a target, because they have surpassed Bernie Madoff and Enron in market cap / money being managed. The collapse of both lead to several suicides.

 

If it turns out that Tether is unbacked, this will not end well… though even with Tether being backed, I don’t see this ending without a lot of personal tragedy. Many people have invested more than they can afford to lose.

Edited January 6, 2022 by lkn

[ThLT]

30 minutes ago, lkn said:

But rather than trying to give an exhaustive definition of value creation, why don’t you tell us, what value bitcoin is creating? And please don’t give the infinite chain of people keep selling at a profit, that is basically the definition of a speculative bubble: People buy only with the intent to resell at a higher price. This only works with products for which there is a final consumer, e.g. with the rice example above, we are not reselling the rice hundreds of times, and making a profit on each sale, we are storing the rice until prices goes up (because of low supply), and then we are selling into the market of people who actually need to eat this rice, and not just resell it again.

Exactly. The burden of proof is on @Yellowtail.

What value do cryptocurrencies generate? Both:
- The ones that still exist?

- And the ones that crashed and are now worth nothing?

[lkn]

44 minutes ago, lkn said:

The general understanding though is that value is created when you take inputs, such as materials and labour, and create an output, such as a product or services, that is worth more than the sum of the inputs

I should have added education (as an indirect input when creating value), and as for “worth more”, one measure (that does not require the PnL of the business) could be if a) the buyer needs the product/service, and b) are either unable to create it themselves, or would have to spend more of their “time” doing so, than the time required for them to earn enough money to pay for it.

 

I put “time” in quotes, as if the product/service include materials then “time” would include time required to earn money to also buy these materials. The same applies to any training/education required to create the product/service provided.

 

Not that I want to claim that this is the universal definition of all value creation, but I think it’s a pretty good approximation ????

Edited January 6, 2022 by lkn

[Lemsta69]

15 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Exactly. The burden of proof is on @Yellowtail.

What value do cryptocurrencies generate? Both:
- The ones that still exist?

- And the ones that crashed and are now worth nothing?

FUD

[ThLT]

52 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

FUD

That's how existing and crashed cryptocurrencies generate value? ????

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by ThLT

[fdsa]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

blabla

you seem to be good on logic and psychology, could you please help me to determine what's wrong with people who make statements like "if A is B, then everybody else is C"?

[fdsa]

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

Why would they? They know what will happen, more accounts will be closed down on false pretenses by rogue politically motivated prosecutors.

wait, did I just hear a "conspiracy theorist loon©" ?

[ukrules]

4 hours ago, lkn said:

And what about the commercial papers they are holding? Basically they won’t say anything about anything, and yet they proclaim to be industry leaders in transparency (yes, seriously!)

Are you familiar with the principle of the NDA and confidentiality during commercial transactions?

 

[lkn]

10 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Are you familiar with the principle of the NDA and confidentiality during commercial transactions?

For financial institutions that invest other people’s money? No, rather, the opposite, There are strict regulation to ensure transparency and proper disclosure.

 

You started this thread ranting about “Tether Truthers”, I wonder, what would the opposite of these be called? Because I think I have found one ????

[uli65]

no need to move, the party is over already

[Peterw42]

The day this thread started DEC 30th 2021, Bitcoin was $47,122 USD. ($50k a couple of days prior

Today, JAN 07 2022, Bitcoin is $42,700.

 

Almost 20% down in one week, Where do I sign.

 

[Yellowtail]

11 hours ago, ThLT said:

Exactly. The burden of proof is on @Yellowtail.

Of course it is. 

 

I never said it was creating value, all I did was call you out for claiming "everything won in crypto, someone else lost,"  which again, is clearly a lie. Admit it's a lie and we're pretty much done. 

 

I see people making money on something having value, you say it is not.

I ask for a definition of creating value, but you are unable to provide one.

You claim it's on me to "prove" something you are not even able to define.

 

Again, what value does a ballgame create? 

 

Why is it when people that make money in crypto and then build homes with it not creating value?

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

The day this thread started DEC 30th 2021, Bitcoin was $47,122 USD. ($50k a couple of days prior

Today, JAN 07 2022, Bitcoin is $42,700.

 

Almost 20% down in one week, Where do I sign.

 

 

Humana one day....

 

[Whale]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Almost 20% down in one week, Where do I sign.

Don't sign just yet :+) I think it still has a bit to drop yet more. Also go back to late October it was close to breaking 70K so its fallen even more if you take that number. 

 

[ThLT]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I see people making money on something having value, you say it is not.

I ask for a definition of creating value, but you are unable to provide one.

You claim it's on me to "prove" something you are not even able to define.

I did explain "creating value" to you. You even replied. So did Ikn. And it's not my definition, it's basic finance.

 

"Making money" is not "creating value." 

Charles Ponzi made a lot of money, he didn't create value. 

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why is it when people that make money in crypto and then build homes with it not creating value?

You are conflating the act of buying/selling crypto... and what you do with the fiat money from selling crypto. It's two different events. 

A scam artist can create value by donating millions in stolen money to charity.
But how he got those millions did not create value. Rather the opposite.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by ThLT

[vinci]

Thailand is about to tax crypto

[ThLT]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I never said it was creating value, all I did was call you out for claiming "everything won in crypto, someone else lost,"  which again, is clearly a lie. Admit it's a lie and we're pretty much done. 

I explained it to you, and so did Ikn. This is basic finance. 

Tell me: if I buy $1000 worth of XEM coin (a real coin that eventually died and is now worth nothing) off of someone who paid $400. And then the XEM coin crashes (like it did). And you can't sell the XEM coin you paid $1000 for.

 

From where did the $600 profit the first guy made come from? Where did that fiat money come from? Out of thin air? 

It came from your pockets.

"Every profit obtained from buying/selling crypto, someone else lost" is correct. Crypto is zero-sum—but with electricity and hardware costs calculated in, it is negative-sum.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by ThLT

[ThLT]

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Humana one day....

 

Might want to show a fuller graph there (your 1d graph is seriously misleading):

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by ThLT

[ThLT]

13 minutes ago, vinci said:

Thailand is about to tax crypto

Yes, and crypto (almost every single coin) has crashed 10-20% in the last 24 hours.

[Yellowtail]

46 minutes ago, ThLT said:

 

Might want to show a fuller graph there (your 1d graph is seriously misleading):

 

Dude might want to show a fuller graph of his chart showing sell-offs an recoveries as well, what's your point?

[Sunnny]

Another huge crash happening in 3-4 hours time. Bitcoin is in the negative zone year to date.

[thaibeachlovers]

why aren't you?

 

Because I'm not stupid, perhaps?

I've seen the result of financial trickery before, more than once, and it's always the little people like me that lose.

The big boys wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't to benefit themselves, as they rarely suffer financially when it all turns to the brown stuff.

[Mr Meeseeks]

Ethereum is way oversold at the moment. I'm slurping the dip. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

I explained it to you, and so did Ikn. This is basic finance. 

Providing examples is the same as explaining something, and explaining something is not the same as defining something. 

 

Neither you nor Ikn are able to define "creating value", so I'll drop it. No point in beating a dead horse. 

 

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

Tell me: if I buy $1000 worth of XEM coin (a real coin that eventually died and is now worth nothing) off of someone who paid $400. And then the XEM coin crashes (like it did). And you can't sell the XEM coin you paid $1000 for.

 

From where did the $600 profit the first guy made come from? Where did that fiat money come from? Out of thin air? 

It came from your pockets.

Why would I be trying to sell crypto that you bought? That makes no sense.

 

If I sold GM before they went bust, where did that money come from? 

 

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

"Every profit obtained from buying/selling crypto, someone else lost" is correct. Crypto is zero-sum—but with electricity and hardware costs calculated in, it is negative-sum.

If I partnered with a coworker and bought $1000 in crypto, I later sold my share to my coworker for $350K, and the coworker later sold out to someone else for $875K, to someone that turned around and sold out for $1.1M, then I profited and no one lost from the profit I made. Someone may/will profit from someone else's loss in the future, but that is not what you are saying. If that is what you mean then say that, don't keep telling the same lie over and over. 

[lkn]

25 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Someone may/will profit from someone else's loss in the future, but that is not what you are saying

This is what we are saying, this is what a zero-sum game is.

 

A zero-sum game does not look at a single transaction, it looks at the entire game, from start to finish.

 

And I think my amended definition of creating value was pretty good ???? 

 

And also, betting on sports, lotteries, casinos, etc. are also all zero-sum games. It is simply moving money from the many to the few, giving a cut to those arranging the game, but not creating any value. This is probably why gambling is either illegal or highly regulated in most jurisdictions, because it is an easy way to lure money away from people without providing them anything of value, other than maybe a dopamine rush.