Siam Commercial Bank moving into Crypto, why aren't you?

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, lkn said:

Several were doomed to fail from the start, many predicted this. That is the parallel I am drawing: If your business has no way to generate money, it won’t last forever, even if you raise millions on the open markets.

Even if your business is able to generate money it will not last forever.

 

5 hours ago, lkn said:

Is Richard Heart’s HEX coin just a high risk investment that might turn out to make all investors rich? Or is it a cleverly disguised ponzi scheme?

I don't know. Is it operating illegally? 

 

5 hours ago, lkn said:

You are confusing it with the Great Depression.

You are correct.

 

In any event, companies that effectively bought NPLs went bust, and should not have been bailed out. People that buy homes they can't afford should lose them, and the market will readjust.

 

The same thing is happening again and no one cares. Are you railing against people buying inflated real estate like you're railing against crypto?

 

5 hours ago, lkn said:

Do you think front running, wildcat banks, bucket shops, money laundering, and ponzi schemes should be legal?

I say "As long as the people buying and selling crypto are abiding the law, I say let them." and your takeaway is that I support criminal activity. I do not. 

 

5 hours ago, lkn said:

As for following the law, what law should they follow? Several countries already disallow many aspects of crypto.

And I assume more and more will. Generally, is not illegal is legal. Companies not breaking that law should be allowed to operate. If they are breaking the law, they should be prosecuted.  

 

5 hours ago, lkn said:

My personal gains are irrelevant for this discussion, and why should you believe any claims I make about myself anyway? But if you must know, your numbers are too low. But I was already wealthy when I invested in Apple, money I had made from operating a succesful business.

I assumed ThLT was lying. What business were you in? I was in the HVAC business for the last 25 years and did okay. 

[LoveThai94]

39 minutes ago, Stocky said:

Certainly, but not everyone's appetite for risk is the same, as you get older you generally become more risk averse. If you're young you've still got many years of work ahead of you and plenty of options to recover from a bad investment, that's not so if you're already retired.

 

The question posed was "Siam Commercial Bank moving into Crypto, why aren't you?", as many on the forum are already retired or semi-retired, it is unlikely to be a receptive audience for crypto-evangelism. 

I understand your point, yes as you get older you move around your assets to reduce risk, prior to crypto they warn you about this with stocks.

I wouldn't put more than 2% of my assets into crypto as it stands, with regulation i would say this number could be up to 15% in something like stable coins.

Buying high flying stocks are just as risky with over 50 times their forward earnings, this i think is crazy.

[lkn]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Are you railing against people buying inflated real estate like you're railing against crypto?

I was certainly vocal about bankers who pushed the wrong products onto financially illiterate consumers, and I was vocal (in my own country) about our government, who loosened regulation up to the financial crisis of 2008 (which definitely let to a worse crash then had they not done this). I also interject when people try to tout Tesla as a great investment.

 

So it is not just crypto, but nothing has been as bad as crypto, and crypto isn’t just a bad “investment” pushed onto ignorant people via FOMO, it has a lot of negative externalities, like the absurd amount of energy consumption (contributing to more pollution and global warming), making ransomware a financially succesful business, and having people like Nayib Bukele gamble with the economy of an entire country, and inspiring other would-be dictators to follow suit.

 

Back to inflated real estate: You still don’t seem to understand what I am actually arguing against. A house provides shelter, majority of people need this. Maybe they overpay, but it’s not like millions of people are sold on buying a second and third home that they do not need, in some collective delusion that this will make us all rich. Though occasionally we do have these house bubbles, where people do start to buy second and third homes, because they think they can resell it in the future for a profit, and if anyone is promoting this on a forum I follow, there’s a good chance I will tell them that it is BS.

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I assumed ThLT was lying. What business were you in? I was in the HVAC business for the last 25 years and did okay. 

You seemed to be the one who failed to actually read what I wrote, namely that the dividends had paid for my initial purchase, i.e. money invested was repaid by the investment itself (not by a greater fool), and Apple being a real business, my cashflow [from Apple] would not just disappear tomorrow because of a tweet.

 

As for my business, it was creating and selling software.

[ThLT]

9 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

I am a stock guy but understand the underlying value of crypto.

Blockchain however does change the landscape

Sure, but it's important to differentiate between blockchain/crypto as a technology, and cryptocurrencies.

 

In 10-20 years from now, probably 99% of crypto coins will have perished. Most people will lose a lot of money, or even all of their investments. As a technology, crypto isn't a Ponzi scheme, and has a lot of potential... but right now, with most cases, it basically is structured this way.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by ThLT

[LoveThai94]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:36 AM, ThLT said:

Sure, but it's important to differentiate between blockchain/crypto as a technology, and cryptocurrencies.

 

In 10-20 years from now, probably 99% of crypto coins will have perished. Most people will lose a lot of money, or even all of their investments. As a technology, crypto isn't a Ponzi scheme, and has a lot of potential... but right now, with most cases, it basically is structured this way.

 

I agree some coins will not be around but some will stand.

99% of pink sheet stocks goes to nothing and maybe up to 99% of day traders lose money.

People making or losing money is the nature of investments.

For Siam bank going into crypto is a smart move, up or down brokers and banks makes money.

 

 

 

 

[LoveThai94]

Anyone who thinks crypto is going to zero put your money where your mouth is and take a short position!

Bitcoin is about $42,700 short a couple of coins, this should be easy money, you could buy it back at say $20,000 if you don't want to be greedy.

[ThLT]

2 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

I agree some coins will not be around but some will stand.

Yes, most coins will eventually crash—will be worth absolutely nothing—and a few will stand. Which, in its present state, is in large part what makes crypto very similar to a Ponzi scheme.

 

2 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

Anyone who thinks crypto is going to zero put your money where your mouth is and take a short position!

Bitcoin is about $42,700 short a couple of coins, this should be easy money, you could buy it back at say $20,000 if you don't want to be greedy.

Crypto-evangelists will evangelize. ????

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by ThLT

[lkn]

2 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

Anyone who thinks crypto is going to zero put your money where your mouth is and take a short position!

You can think it is worthless without thinking it will go to zero.

 

One very dangerous thing about shorting crypto is how the price can be easily manipulated, as long as people believe that 1 USDT/USDC = 1 USD.

 

There seems to be confirmation that a) you can borrow USDT with crypto assets as security (direct from Tether, if you are big enough), b) you can do leveraged trades up to 125x on Binance, and c) Binance is effectively responsible for the price of most crypto currencies.

 

Utilizing the above, you can create enormous upward pressure on the price, with a relatively small initial investment. But in the process, the amount of stable coins backed by inflated crypto assets ballons, and indeed the supply of stable coins did increase with > 100 billion dollars in 2021 (with non of the issuers willing to submit to an audit).

 

So if you want to short crypto: How long can you stay solvent? For those unfamiliar with shorting, your position may be liquidated if the price increase to a level where you can no longer cover the trade, and so, you will take a loss.

Edited January 17, 2022 by lkn

[LoveThai94]

13 hours ago, ThLT said:

Yes, most coins will eventually crash—will be worth absolutely nothing—and a few will stand. Which, in its present state, is in large part what makes crypto very similar to a Ponzi scheme.

 

Crypto-evangelists will evangelize. ????

 

How can crypto be a ponzi scheme?, am i missing the meaning of a ponzi scheme?

Are you saying block chain is a ponzi scheme?

Cryptos are individually created by different developers so where is the scheme?

 

For the record i am not telling anyone to get into crypto.

 

[LoveThai94]

12 hours ago, lkn said:

You can think it is worthless without thinking it will go to zero.

 

One very dangerous thing about shorting crypto is how the price can be easily manipulated, as long as people believe that 1 USDT/USDC = 1 USD.

 

There seems to be confirmation that a) you can borrow USDT with crypto assets as security (direct from Tether, if you are big enough), b) you can do leveraged trades up to 125x on Binance, and c) Binance is effectively responsible for the price of most crypto currencies.

 

Utilizing the above, you can create enormous upward pressure on the price, with a relatively small initial investment. But in the process, the amount of stable coins backed by inflated crypto assets ballons, and indeed the supply of stable coins did increase with > 100 billion dollars in 2021 (with non of the issuers willing to submit to an audit).

 

So if you want to short crypto: How long can you stay solvent? For those unfamiliar with shorting, your position may be liquidated if the price increase to a level where you can no longer cover the trade, and so, you will take a loss.

The same thing goes for stock but it still get shorted, yes a few guys were squeezed out recently.

You can leverage 200x on stocks and Forex.

Bitcoin is shorted everyday and have a ton of bitcoin Bears.

Who short without stops anyways? and if you get hit with a gap up then you just have to cough it up.

Shorting is not for weak hearts.

 

[Yellowtail]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:51 PM, lkn said:

A lot of this stuff operates outside any specific legal jurisdiction, so saying “as long as they are abiding by the law” is nonsensical. What law? Same with HEX coin, no, it is not illegal, AFAIK, because who should make it illegal? Nothing on the blockchain is illegal per se. Only if someone is targeting a specific group, can the question of legality be answered. As already said, many of the operaters in the crypto space have already been banned from dealing with consumers in various states and countries, because the “product” they are selling is not legal in that state or country.

How am I being nonsensical? Asking "what law" seems nonsensical to me. Who is being cheated? 

 

On 1/15/2022 at 8:51 PM, lkn said:

So I don’t understand your argument that “as long as it’s legal, I have no problem with it”, because most of this stuff is illegal, if it operated under e.g. U.S. or U.K. law.

Are you lying to make your point or just being careless? I did not say that. There are any number of things that are legal that I have a problem with. If it is illegal the people trading should be prosecuted. 

 

On 1/15/2022 at 8:51 PM, lkn said:

All the stuff I mentioned, it goes on right now, sometimes I suspect the OP of this thread to be in a pump’n’dump group, both because he likes to hype a lot of coins that peak just around the time he tell us all to buy, and because he had such strong reaction to my comment when I posted an invite to one of these pump’n’dump groups, revealing the scam.

And were the OP selling Amway he would be going on about how great Amway is.

 

How many kids burn themselves on the stove after being told a hundred times not to touch it? 

[ThLT]

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

Cryptos are individually created by different developers so where is the scheme?

Exactly.

 

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

How can crypto be a ponzi scheme?, am i missing the meaning of a ponzi scheme?

Quote

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.^[1] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme 

 

[LoveThai94]

2 hours ago, ThLT said:

Exactly.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme 

 

I know the definition of a ponzi scheme.

cryptos are not linked together so it is not a scheme.

You could try to argue that a particular coin is a ponzi scheme or an exchange but crypto is just an asset class.

[Yellowtail]

56 minutes ago, LoveThai94 said:

I know the definition of a ponzi scheme.

cryptos are not linked together so it is not a scheme.

You could try to argue that a particular coin is a ponzi scheme or an exchange but crypto is just an asset class.

That's how responds when he can't answer.

[ThLT]

4 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

crypto is just an asset class

Crypto isn't just an asset class. That's an empty statement. Why would it be just an asset class? If it is, then that only further strengthens the point I'm making.

 

4 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

You could try to argue that a particular coin is a ponzi scheme or an or an exchange

That is what I'm saying. It's good that you're realizing it (as compared to Yellowtail, who is clueless about most points discussed).

The way coins are structured—similar to the definition of a Ponzi scheme—are that many coins have no actual functioning business model or business activity, and essentially... provide no product or service.

 

If a coin has no use in the present, and will have no use in the future, it will eventually crash, and will be superseded by a coin that does provide a product or service/has actual value.

There are some coins that are literal Ponzi schemes, and some are basically structured as Ponzi schemes, whether that is the intent of the developers of the coin or not.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ThLT

[ThLT]

Fact is, if making money for present/future investors, without real-world applications, is the only present and future function of a crypto coin, then that is in large part the structure of a Ponzi scheme.

 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Fact is, if making money for present/future investors, without real-world applications, is the only present and future function of a crypto coin, then that is in large part the structure of a Ponzi scheme.

 

Not per your definition.

[lkn]

8 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

The same thing goes for stock but it still get shorted, yes a few guys were squeezed out recently.

Imagine if companies didn’t have to disclose earnings or anything else about themselves or their business, and imagine there was no oversight on banks and they could each print their own money, which could be used to buy stocks.

 

Would you short stocks in such environment? Because that is crypto.

[LoveThai94]

3 hours ago, lkn said:

Imagine if companies didn’t have to disclose earnings or anything else about themselves or their business, and imagine there was no oversight on banks and they could each print their own money, which could be used to buy stocks.

 

Would you short stocks in such environment? Because that is crypto.

Are you saying cryptos do not disclose their information?

[LoveThai94]

4 hours ago, ThLT said:

Crypto isn't just an asset class. That's an empty statement. Why would it be just an asset class? If it is, then that only further strengthens the point I'm making.

 

That is what I'm saying. It's good that you're realizing it (as compared to Yellowtail, who is clueless about most points discussed).

The way coins are structured—similar to the definition of a Ponzi scheme—are that many coins have no actual functioning business model or business activity, and essentially... provide no product or service.

 

If a coin has no use in the present, and will have no use in the future, it will eventually crash, and will be superseded by a coin that does provide a product or service/has actual value.

There are some coins that are literal Ponzi schemes, and some are basically structured as Ponzi schemes, whether that is the intent of the developers of the coin or not.

 

Research Eth, Sol and matic you will get a better picture of what some cryptos are about.

After you are done with that research how many billionaires and companies own cryptos, all these idiots with money!

[LoveThai94]

I figured it out!

Most people saying crypto is a scam have no idea what cryptos are.

 

Imagine the US regulatory bodies allowing this ponzi scheme to still operate, on top of that the IRS will tax your profits from this ponzi scheme.

 

Well order flow is legal in the US and that is why stocks are not a ponzi scheme 555.

 

 

[ThLT]

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

Research Eth, Sol and matic you will get a better picture of what some cryptos are about.

If you would have read the thread, you would know I think Ethereum has a lot of potential.

 

And, most importantly:

If a small number of coins out of 7000+ crypto coins are good, it doesn't paint "a better picture." If 6970 out of 7000 coins are complete garbage... that means, on average, cryptocurrencies are garbage. 

 

40 minutes ago, LoveThai94 said:

I figured it out!

Most people saying crypto is a scam have no idea what cryptos are.

Most people who like crypto have no idea what cryptocurrency is. And similarly with basic economics.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ThLT

[LoveThai94]

11 hours ago, ThLT said:

If you would have read the thread, you would know I think Ethereum has a lot of potential.

 

And, most importantly:

If a small number of coins out of 7000+ crypto coins are good, it doesn't paint "a better picture." If 6970 out of 7000 coins are complete garbage... that means, on average, cryptocurrencies are garbage. 

 

Most people who like crypto have no idea what cryptocurrency is. And similarly with basic economics.

 

If you think Eth has a lot of potential then why are you saying crypto is a ponzi scheme?

 

Maybe you just like challenging me, i like the competitive spirit.

 

Make no mistake there are a lot of trash coins out there and you know there are also a lot of trash stocks out there.

 

Why throw the baby out with the bath water?

 

The post is still about Siam bank moving into cyrpto, in my view this is a good move.

 

I am for block chain, i am for smart contracts, i don't want to have to keep exchange money everywhere i go and lose on the conversion, I don't want to be stuck with anymore currency that i can't use.

 

I am not saying all cryptos are good, most of them i just read the first line and stop, this is the same for stocks.

 

On your last point i am going to say most people don't understand investments period!

They don't want to put in the time.

Everyone wants to get into the next Apple, Amazon or the next great thing that will make them rich.

 

 

 

 

 

[ThLT]

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

If you think Eth has a lot of potential then why are you saying crypto is a ponzi scheme?

Like I said in my previous posts, most crypto coins are either literal Ponzi schemes, or are structured similarly to a Ponzi scheme. That some coins aren't like that doesn't change that most coins are.

 

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

Why throw the baby out with the bath water?

More like a baby in a huge swimming pool. Crypto fanatics only talk about the baby. Isn't it also important to talk about the pool?

 

1 hour ago, LoveThai94 said:

I am for block chain, i am for smart contracts, i don't want to have to keep exchange money everywhere i go and lose on the conversion, I don't want to be stuck with anymore currency that i can't use.

Every time you convert fiat money to buy crypto, there is a conversion/transaction fee. Along with costs of selling, there is then another conversion fee when converting crypto to fiat.

 

If anything, you're probably paying more in conversion/transaction fees with crypto than if you would simply convert from one fiat currency to another.

[LoveThai94]

11 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Like I said in my previous posts, most crypto coins are either literal Ponzi schemes, or are structured similarly to a Ponzi scheme. That some coins aren't like that doesn't change that most coins are.

 

More like a baby in a huge swimming pool. Crypto fanatics only talk about the baby. Isn't it also important to talk about the pool?

 

Every time you convert fiat money to buy crypto, there is a conversion/transaction fee. Along with costs of selling, there is then another conversion fee when converting crypto to fiat.

 

If anything, you're probably paying more in conversion/transaction fees with crypto than if you would simply convert from one fiat currency to another.

You missed the point with the smart contract using crypto or you are trying to go around it.

 

There is a big difference with using crypto versus owning or trading it,

I am pretty sure you know that you use crypto to buy and sell things.

 

I am not a crypto fanatics but the swimming pool could also be used to referenced the stock market.

 

Crypto is changing the financial markets as we speak.

 

Does selling rotten food makes food bad? or the rotten food and the person selling it?

[ThLT]

1 minute ago, LoveThai94 said:

I am pretty sure you know that you use crypto to buy and sell things.

That's what cryptocurrencies are supposed to be, in theory. However, in the most part, they are basically just "get-rich-quick" speculative assets at the moment.

[LoveThai94]

1 minute ago, ThLT said:

That's what cryptocurrencies are supposed to be, in theory. However, in the most part, they are basically just "get-rich-quick" speculative assets at the moment.

Almost every investment is speculative, read the fine prints on any managed fund.

 

[Rimmer]

Some libelous / unfounded accusations have been removed. 

 

Please do not make defamatory posts of this nature as they could result in removal from the forum and civil legal action.

[Bluespunk]

Why not get into crypto currencies?

 

Because the energy output required to generate/mine/whatever them is environmentally catastrophic, that's why.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Bluespunk
link removed

[lkn]

4 hours ago, LoveThai94 said:

Crypto is changing the financial markets as we speak.

Any examples? Other than press releases like what OP posted, which is just about the investment arm of SCB that has bought a crypto exchange to make money on fees. That is not changing financial markets, they might as well have bought an amusement park.

 

If crypto is disruptive, what exactly is being disrupted? Who are losing money and customers to crypto?