Renovation Issues

[dia1]

I recently purchased a condo and hired a renovation team to remove the existing flooring and tiles and install expensive porcelain tile in its place. So far, things have not been too great. Several days in the begining the team missed work, and despite us having a plan of what steps would be taken when, the team started jumping around and doing other tasks that were supposed to be done much later. This resulted in the tile being delivered before all the existing flooring and was removed.

 

I was very specific with the project that I wanted the floors leveled with self-leveling cement before installing the new tile, so I was confused as to how the team was going to work around the huge pile of new tile sitting near the entrance.

 

To my surprise today I woke up to a message from the contractor telling me that they are starting the tile and pictures of them laying the tile out over the old, decaying thinset under the old tiles to check the pattern. This prompted a confused response from me a some panic. Instead of removing the thinset, they intended to skip old thinset removal, skip pouring self-leveling cement, and just use a thin layer of something to put the tiles over the old junk underneath.  This resulted in me arguing with them for a couple hours and them trying to tell me that they cannot remove the old thinset as it may damage the concrete floors underneath and that the condo may sue them if they do so. Then they tried to convince me that the condo juristic would not allow them to remove the old thinset.

 

I am not a renovation expert by any means, but I am not stupid enough to think the tile will last long if they simply plop it down over old thinset with a thin layer of adhesive, nor will it be perfectly even if they do it that way. I ensured them that using hand tools (scraper, chisel) that the thinset could be removed without damaging the concrete floor, and I also spoke with the juristic office building manager who agreed with me.

 

In addition, they said they wanted to tile two different rooms at the same time, beginning with the bedrooms which are deeper in the condo. This makes little sense as all the floors will have the same kind of tile so it seems it should flow from the main entrance then seemlessly to all the other rooms.

 

Anyway, I have been fuming all day over this and am going to the job site tomorrow to discuss with them. Am I crazy or does this seem like an inexperienced team I am dealing with? I have already paid them 50% in advance otherwise, I would just call the whole thing off. What would you do?

[Orinoco]

Welcome to the real joys of Thailand.

 

[stigar]

U did a BIG mistake paying 50% in advance.I build a house in surin many years ago.I paid every friday until the house was finished.

[Peterw42]

Sounds like communication problems. Maybe involve an English/Thai speaking person as a go between.

[Elkski]

Yes best to remove thinset and self leveling is wonderful to lay tile onto if poured correctly.    Self leveling an entire condo with many rooms is not an easy job or one for a team with no experience.   For a condo assuming 50 M2 or so you should use a mixing machine and pump and hose.   Hand mixing in 5 gal buckets won't work very well unless you have 10 drills going.    They want to skip to the good part.  Payday without doing the hard parts.  

It sounds like you had a detailed work expectation.  I assume these steps were included in the contract?  Your just going to have to stop this job before it becomes a disaster.  

[dia1]

13 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Sounds like communication problems. Maybe involve an English/Thai speaking person as a go between.

They have an English speaker that works for them who is managing the project. Everything is has been communicated verbally and on LINE. I even pointed out to them with screenshots of where I wrote to them exactly what is supposed to be done. Also, even if they didn't have an English speaker, who the heck would set large format porcelain tiles on top of old thinset? It leaves no room for back butter and new thinset. And the tile leveling system would simply be pressing down against old, hardened thinset instead of leveling the edges of the tile like it is supposed to do. These are large format 120x20 planks with the same depth as the previous tile. It seems like common sense that if you set new tile without removing the old thinset, the new tile will not have a strong enough bond and will likely not have the same leveled height as the previous tile.

[Elkski]

Some thinset may be coming off easy and some really being stubborn.  It may require a floor grinder that uses water.  Or lots of labor but that's is what's needed.  Then you need lots of Lazer level marks all over and on the perimeter.  Some use plastic pins  in the field that are trimed to the laser level line. .  seal up every last penetration with caulk as SLC will find its way through small holes and create a disaster.   They need spiked shoes and a spiked roller and a few other tools.   They probably have never used SLC or proper thinset for that matter.  

Depending on tile flatness and size is what dictates trowel notch size.  All notch lines should run in linear  manner under each tile. NO circles that trap air.   Every once in a while tiles need to be pulled to check for 90% coverage.   Thinset needs to be mixed with exact quantity of water.  Maybe this math is above ability.  No runny water  soupy method allowed.   Forget about your 50%  because redoing it will cost so much if tiles start popping or are unlevel.  Starting in back rooms isn't all bad if they plan expansion joints in the doorways.  Tile should have expansion joints every 20feet or so.  More if near a sunny window.  

[Guest Isaanlife]

Anyone who has ever removed tile from a concrete floor knows exactly what a nasty job it is.

 

Without professionals doing this, I would say the Thai assessment the floor can be damaged is 100% correct.

 

It is one thing to remove tiles from the ground floor however in a Condo you need to worry about the ones below. (their ceiling)

 

Tile removal will also leave dust is every single place you can never imagine.

 

You will be cleaning dust for months afterward.

 

You better hope any appliances, etc are sealed tight before starting that job.

 

Laying over the top of the old can be done if they know what they are doing.

 

The only issue is the floor will be 1/4"+ higher and may affect door jams and floor baseboard trim.

 

[Elkski]

Don't worry about finished heights.  I know one always hopes for a  predicted finished height but best to install correctly and level and deal with finished height.  I always remove base boards. NO quarter round for me or tile touching wood.    Most  SLC has a 1/2"  minimum thickness requirement.  So if it wasn't used before your finished height will be at least 1/2" higher assuming the condo floor is level and all thinset is removed.   I suggest you buy a laser level.  Should be under 6000 baht.    

Show us some pictures?  How much of old thinset is not adhering?  Was there water damage that caused the old thinset to fail?  Who wants to trust old thinset in a new expensive floor?  Get it all out!  The bid should have included a labor figure and several days to get it back to original strong surface.   It's good the Jurassic person is on your side so far.  Take him to dinner ASAP

[bbko]

Figure out what jobs they're willing to do to your request that only go up to the 50% payment line then part ways with them and find another team.  

[dia1]

2 minutes ago, Isaanlife said:

Anyone who has ever removed tile from a concrete floor knows exactly what a nasty job it is.

 

Without professionals doing this, I would say the Thai assessment the floor can be damaged is 100% correct.

 

It is one thing to remove tiles from the ground floor however in a Condo you need to worry about the ones below. (their ceiling)

 

Tile removal will also leave dust is every single place you can never imagine.

 

You will be cleaning dust for months afterward.

 

You better hope any appliances, etc are sealed tight before starting that job.

 

Laying over the top of the old can be done if they know what they are doing.

 

The only issue is the floor will be 1/4"+ higher and may affect door jams and floor baseboard trim.

 

 

The entire condo has been gutted so I'm not worried about the dust getting in anything so much. I paid them to basically demo everything (flooring, kitchen, bathroom cabinets, tubs, toilets, etc.) There's nothing left in the condo except for the built in ACs, which I will have serviced and cleaned once the job is done. The plan was to have them re-tile the bathrooms IF the tiling of the main area flooring went well. I made the mistake of lumping the whole job into one as I thought I was working with a professional and reputable company.

 

I agree that you can lay over the thinset if you want a 1/4" higher tile, like if you were retiling an entire floor of a house, but the condo tile runs under the front door and meets the common area hallway tile under the front door. They should be level for a proper transition. Aside from the step up looking atrocious, the door would probably scrape/scratch against the new tile. I've never seen someone do that in a condo, but I imagine doing it would decrease your chances of ever selling it in the future. I sure as heck wouldn't buy a condo with a sloppy tile job like that, unless I was planning to redo the whole thing.

[Elkski]

Like I thought you hoped for a certain level.   NO crew can do that and lay tile level.   Let that restriction go.   A step up transition is no big deal.  they make beautiful durable  metal transition trim in many colors.   Must be ordered and planned for after SLC pour. SLC is very expensive to buy.   Did you calculate how many bags required to pour 1/2" minimum ( depending on SLC.   it's actually hard to pour or feather out slc to thin.   Was this material expense included or do you purchase materials?     A condo floor can easily be unlevel by 2-3 cm. Requires some math and topography estimates to calculate bags required. Plus 10% you don't ever want to run out of SLC once you start.  Not real hard to pour with the right tools and mixers. But you don't want a crew to learn on your floor.   

[Guest Isaanlife]

2 minutes ago, dia1 said:

 

The entire condo has been gutted so I'm not worried about the dust getting in anything so much. I paid them to basically demo everything (flooring, kitchen, bathroom cabinets, tubs, toilets, etc.) There's nothing left in the condo except for the built in ACs, which I will have serviced and cleaned once the job is done. The plan was to have them re-tile the bathrooms IF the tiling of the main area flooring went well. I made the mistake of lumping the whole job into one as I thought I was working with a professional and reputable company.

 

I agree that you can lay over the thinset if you want a 1/4" higher tile, like if you were retiling an entire floor of a house, but the condo tile runs under the front door and meets the common area hallway tile under the front door. They should be level for a proper transition. Aside from the step up looking atrocious, the door would probably scrape/scratch against the new tile. I've never seen someone do that in a condo, but I imagine doing it would decrease your chances of ever selling it in the future. I sure as heck wouldn't buy a condo with a sloppy tile job like that, unless I was planning to redo the whole thing.

That is all going to depend on the skill of those doing the job and whether or not they understand what you want done.

[Elkski]

I actually enjoyed many hours watching tile crews in Thailand and Vietnam on my 11 trips 2016-2020.   

I never saw tile laid correctly according to my understanding of US tile standards or as a mechanical engineer.   

[Don Chance]

Why are so obsessed with self levelling cement? In practice it does not work very well.  There is no such thing really. It works by gravity. Anyways they will level it by applying more or less thin set as the go along.

 

Actually this is the wrong way to lay tiles. Concrete sub-floors are damp, that is why 90% of apartments have MOLD problems. You need a underlayment such Delta, which creates a air gab so the concrete can dry out.

 

 

[dia1]

59 minutes ago, Elkski said:

Don't worry about finished heights.  I know one always hopes for a  predicted finished height but best to install correctly and level and deal with finished height.  I always remove base boards. NO quarter round for me or tile touching wood.    Most  SLC has a 1/2"  minimum thickness requirement.  So if it wasn't used before your finished height will be at least 1/2" higher assuming the condo floor is level and all thinset is removed.   I suggest you buy a laser level.  Should be under 6000 baht.    

Show us some pictures?  How much of old thinset is not adhering?  Was there water damage that caused the old thinset to fail?  Who wants to trust old thinset in a new expensive floor?  Get it all out!  The bid should have included a labor figure and several days to get it back to original strong surface.   It's good the Jurassic person is on your side so far.  Take him to dinner ASAP

 

Here's a shoddy pic taken a week or two ago:

https://ibb.co/8s00hS9

 

It looks like they used an air hammer to go around the grout lines and then yanked the tile out by hand. Nearly all the thinset was not bonded to the tile, and when rubbing your hand across the thinset, a lot of if just crumbles.

 

This is actually the reason I removed the tile in the first place. I had a building inspector check all aspects of the condo before purchase and he pointed out that the there were air pockets under the tile or it wasn't bonded correctly or something. If you set the new til eon top of this old thinset, it is level with the common hallway tile, so any new adhesive applied to the floor or to the back of the tile will cause the tile to be raised by that amount.

 

The bottom right hand corner is where wood flooring was previously installed, and this team was also to raise the floor to be level with the rest of the room during the process.

 

We're a couple weeks in, and the tiling of the main area was supposed to be done on Jan 7. They are just now finishing the demo and no concrete has been poured. I didn't think much about the time time it will take for the thick concrete/screed or whatever they plan to use to bring the bedroom floors up to the level with the rest of the flooring to dryv, but now that we are way behind schedule I guess I'm going to have to start thinking about that as well.

[Elkski]

I always use Ditra mat made by schluter either on top of wood or cement.    It is an uncoupling membrane.    It will add another 1/4-3/8" but it's best. 

[Elkski]

DIRTFT do it right the first time.  First thing is you must Forget schedule and hall finished height.  Showing pictures of the steps in a correct and beautiful tile job will help you sell your condo.   A step up may prevent water intrusion someday.  Stepping up will add class. Trimming door or raising the sweep or door mod maybe needed.  

[dia1]

16 minutes ago, Don Chance said:

Why are so obsessed with self levelling cement? In practice it does not work very well.  There is no such thing really. It works by gravity. Anyways they will level it by applying more or less thin set as the go along.

 

Actually this is the wrong way to lay tiles. Concrete sub-floors are damp, that is why 90% of apartments have MOLD problems. You need a underlayment such Delta, which creates a air gab so the concrete can dry out.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say I am obsessed with self-leveling cement, but  I want a level floor without lippage or raised/low spots and I have seen many, many tile floors here in Thailand that are uneven.  Successfully leveling the floor should lower the chances of me disappointed by the final tile job.

 

I know these membranes are what we use in the west, but I am pretty sure they aren't used here even in the high-end condos. I had quotes from various contractors for this job and not one of them mentioned installing a membrane. I also watched videos of flooring installs here and none of them used a membrane... So I figured the next best bet to get the best quality job is to get floors leveled properly and used a waterproof tile. If done correctly, the tiling should last decades, if not a lifetime.

[Elkski]

Those large format tiles 1.2m have a warp to them.  This limits the patterns that can be used and also dictates a thinset thickness.  Check tile manufacturer requirements on that specific tile.   Usually the joints can't be staggered more than 1/3 or lippage due to tile curve is noticeable.  If your condo floor is free of cracks ,and I assume the older condo has settled in, I could go without a membrane.  Were there any cracks in the old tile floor or now in the current view?  I know how I would do the job if I wanted to make the most money and I know how I would want the job done if it was my place.  I worry that unless specific steps were listed in the contract or agreement the tile co was thinking minimum work will do while you were mentioning all these proper things that this company never ever does it considered doing now.     What's needed is knee pads and hammers and chisels swinging.  Amazing what 4 guys, or maybe better women, can do in 8 hours if they have their heart in it.  You will never know how well the whatever mud is adhered to the base substrate unless you hit it with a hammer.   I saw tile laid on super wet dry mix mud using a thin slurry of some cement ( no back buttering) mixture and shortly after powder was put in the tight joints and then water poured on the joints.     Not to mention 2  days before 1 meter of fill was put down and then flooded and 8 people walking and sinking 30 cm seeping the much was the compaction method.    That was Vietnam.  

Next company is would specify every step of the process.  Including back buttering each tile.  And pulling every 10-20 tile for inspection.  Also no adding water to thinset after initial mixing ratio! EVER!  And no using old thinset.  And not putting more thinset down than you can cover in 10 mins.   They would hate me.  But I know there must be quality companies. 

[dia1]

3 minutes ago, Elkski said:

Those large format tiles 1.2m have a warp to them.  This limits the patterns that can be used and also dictates a thinset thickness.  Check tile manufacturer requirements on that specific tile.   Usually the joints can't be staggered more than 1/3 or luppage due to tile curve is noticeable.  If your condo floor is free of cracks ,and I assume the older condo has settled in, I could go without a membrane.  We're there any cracks in old tile floor or now in the current view?  I know how o would do the job if I wanted to make the most money and I know how I would want the job done if it was place.  I worry that unless specific steps were listed in the contract or agreement the tile co was thinking minimum work will do while you were mentioning all these proper things that this company never ever does.    What's needed is knee pads and hammers and chisels swinging.  Amazing what 4 guys can do in 8 hours if they have their heart in it.  

 

I specified 1/3 tile staggering, tile direction, grout line size, etc. Literally gave them all the specifics for laying the tile and also gave them the manufacture's specification booklet (in Thai) to lay the tile. I didn't purchase the most expensive tile there is, but it is imported high-quality tile and I opened and checked one of the boxes for quality. They looked quite flat.

 

There is no chance they will all be 100% flat, but I think a nice back butter and leveling system should nullify most problems. If there is not enough adhesive, I feel like an warped tiles might be prone pulling away from the adhesive or the old thinset underneath after a while.

 

Before payment was made and the deal was done I asked specifically "Is the self-leveling cement included in the price?" The response was 'included'. I would've been happy to work a deal out with them where I had paid for it, but I would've not agreed to pay for 600k in labor charges if I thought they were just going to rip up the rile and lay the new tile on top of old thinset. The condo is kind of big by Bangkok standards and when the reno is done it will be 1.5m baht for the labor, new tile, new appliances, etc. It's a pricy renovation, but if the job is done correctly, I will have gotten a good deal on the condo. If these guys F it up with the hardest part (the tile), then I am bleeding money on the deal.

[Elkski]

No tile is flat.  Many of the plank tiles have an arch baked in.  It is the reason for 1/3 stagger.   It can be amazing how repeatable this arc is.  It's all part of the manufacturing process.  Tile does have a grading system.  You don't need top of the line cost wise.  Cost not always corresponds to tile rating. Labor is so cheap in Thailand that cleaning up floor shouldn't cost that much labor.  I hope they didn't just think SLC in the old wood area rather than entire floor.   This isn't rocket science but it's close.   Their is chemistry involved in the thinset and SLC.   You can lay tile on most SLC within 4 hours but better next day.  

[Guest Isaanlife]

6 hours ago, dia1 said:

 

Here's a shoddy pic taken a week or two ago:

https://ibb.co/8s00hS9

 

It looks like they used an air hammer to go around the grout lines and then yanked the tile out by hand. Nearly all the thinset was not bonded to the tile, and when rubbing your hand across the thinset, a lot of if just crumbles.

 

This is actually the reason I removed the tile in the first place. I had a building inspector check all aspects of the condo before purchase and he pointed out that the there were air pockets under the tile or it wasn't bonded correctly or something. If you set the new til eon top of this old thinset, it is level with the common hallway tile, so any new adhesive applied to the floor or to the back of the tile will cause the tile to be raised by that amount.

 

The bottom right hand corner is where wood flooring was previously installed, and this team was also to raise the floor to be level with the rest of the room during the process.

 

We're a couple weeks in, and the tiling of the main area was supposed to be done on Jan 7. They are just now finishing the demo and no concrete has been poured. I didn't think much about the time time it will take for the thick concrete/screed or whatever they plan to use to bring the bedroom floors up to the level with the rest of the flooring to dryv, but now that we are way behind schedule I guess I'm going to have to start thinking about that as well.

Jesus, I wouldn't wish that floor on anyone!

[Don Chance]

If you don't want to do it properly with the underlayment, then forget the tiles. Then a just fill it with concrete and polish it, it will be much better.

[Tropposurfer]

11 hours ago, Elkski said:

Some thinset may be coming off easy and some really being stubborn.  It may require a floor grinder that uses water.  Or lots of labor but that's is what's needed.  Then you need lots of Lazer level marks all over and on the perimeter.  Some use plastic pins  in the field that are trimed to the laser level line. .  seal up every last penetration with caulk as SLC will find its way through small holes and create a disaster.   They need spiked shoes and a spiked roller and a few other tools.   They probably have never used SLC or proper thinset for that matter.  

Depending on tile flatness and size is what dictates trowel notch size.  All notch lines should run in linear  manner under each tile. NO circles that trap air.   Every once in a while tiles need to be pulled to check for 90% coverage.   Thinset needs to be mixed with exact quantity of water.  Maybe this math is above ability.  No runny water  soupy method allowed.   Forget about your 50%  because redoing it will cost so much if tiles start popping or are unlevel.  Starting in back rooms isn't all bad if they plan expansion joints in the doorways.  Tile should have expansion joints every 20feet or so.  More if near a sunny window.  

I agree with Elkski, Khun Don has a great alternative for tiles too (if you can re-sell or return what you've already bought that is?) ... as an Aussie ex-builder I'd say they're both pretty spot on in their advice.

Forget the 50% deposit and put it down to a learning experience and go get yourself a tiling-specialist. If you have no clue where to go maybe  look around for high end villa developers and ask them who does their tiling.

The concrete polishing idea is a good one as you've got to remove the previous thin-set anyways to do anything at all and a polisher is way easier and quicker. No need to project and set levels from room to room, no need for any expansion jointing, no checking levels of lay as you go, no grouting either. Its a hell of a lot tougher than tiles and you never have to ever worry about a broken or cracked tile either ????

[AlQaholic]

Just grind down the old thinset, it is normally very strongly bonded with the underlying concrete (if done correctly in the first place) and determining where the thinset starts and concrete ends is very difficult, especially if concrete is rough. Try levelling as much as possible. 

Self levelling cement takes a lot of experience and team work to apply. I have never met a contractor in Thailand that even understands the concept. Here it is always just thinset and tiles. Also self levelling cement is usually not used for tiling, but for other floor arrangements. for tiling, you would then need to apply another layer of thinset on top of the self levelling cement, which I am not sure about bonding because the surface would be very smooth.

And I agree with Don Chance, that looks very cool!

[The Theory]

15 hours ago, dia1 said:

So far, things have not been too great. Several days in the begining the team missed work

If it is really a thin set shouldn't be any problem(easy remove), unless used thick cement under old tiles.
I'm in process of building a house. One man contractors or small teams usually try to do short cuts to make the job easier and reach the end point ($$$) quicker. Just like my guy who replied that "it will become sticky" when I asked him to ad more cement to the concrete. (He Just wanted the work easy, not in correct way) As already mentioned, never pay in advance, there is no reason that you pay them without any job done. 
Always make the job on a few payments. For example: tell them that you pay them step by step (divide the work to at least 3 or 4 sections) and you keep the right that you can stop the work at any step.(not a contract).

They usually get the job (making sure the job belongs to them, especially after getting a deposit) and after a few days try to do different work at the same time.

Keep in mind that all contractors begin dancing and refusing doing the job right short time  after start the work, even though you cleared everything before they start. 

[The Theory]

1 hour ago, AlQaholic said:

which I am not sure about bonding because the surface would be very smooth.

You are right,

but setting new tiles over the old one won't work better than thin set over self leveling(if contractor knows what "self leveling is ????) In fact I prefer self leveling rather than having the old tiles under thin set since thin set will be fresh and not smoother than the old tile. 

[The Theory]

Some contractors have just a big mouth, but at some point they admit that they have never seen this before: ????????????

 

[Cake Monster]

OP

You have to remember several things when dealing with Thai Contractors of any kind.

A) They are mostly self taught, and a few have progressed to Vocational Colleges, this does not mean they are thick or anything, but they have mostly never been taught correctly, and have never under gone a 5 year Apprenticeship to train them to the standards that we, as people from the wealthy Countries, expect.

B) The average Thai cannot deviate from the normal practices they employ in their Job, for many reasons ( Boss wont be happy, cant think outside the norm Etc Etc)

C) The Contractor is always right, they will never listen to the Farang way, or take on board suggestions from a Farang.

D) Money to them will override everything, and if they can see a cheaper way to produce what they consider to be the finished job correctly, Contract or no Contract, they will take that route.