Non-O visa annual retirement extension lapsing April

[Londinium]

Thanks to all who replied/gave advice on my recent post. 
 

To recap: my extension will run out in April and, this year, I have had to use some of my 800,000 baht. From later this year my finances will be restored again.

 

I understand how to begin again by entering on a new non-O visa, tourist visa or visa exempt and beginning again and am very familiar with CW and applying for extensions.

 

However, I am tempted, just this once, to bypass all the faff and to approach an agent, given that I can’t meet the financial requirement for my next extension.

 

I’d like to know if:
 

a. this is legitimate;

 

b. whether adopting this procedure will make going though the normal channels at CW problematic at the following renewal;

 

c. how to find reputable agents.

 

The money in the bank issue is only a temporary problem and I will be able to restore the account to the full 800,000 by September.

 

I spend half of each year Nov-April in Thailand and the rest of the time in the UK.

 

if the old ME 6 month tourist visa still existed I’d just apply for that each year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skatewash]

Just to clarify, the minimum balance requirements for a retirement extension are as follows:

2 months before application 800k
3 months after application 800k
all other times 400k

Depending on exactly when you dipped below 800k it may or may not be a problem.

 

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Depending on exactly when you dipped below 800k it may or may not be a problem.

The 2 months before will certainly be a problem and for 3 months after many offices are want proof of keeping it in the bank.

[skatewash]

Regarding your specific questions:

a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.

b.  immigration can tell where your previous extensions were granted and if you used an agent.  I heard reports of people not being able to get extensions at some immigration offices, being told to use the agent again.

c.  a friend used a highly recommended agent to get his Non-O visa and retirement extension.  He hasn't gotten his passport back yet after 90 days.  He is told that he has received a Non-O visa so he is not on overstay, but he is also told that the extension of stay will take more time.  This was a highly recommended agent.  

[CANSIAM]

5 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Regarding your specific questions:

a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.

b.  immigration can tell where your previous extensions were granted and if you used an agent.  I heard reports of people not being able to get extensions at some immigration offices, being told to use the agent again.

c.  a friend used a highly recommended agent to get his Non-O visa and retirement extension.  He hasn't gotten his passport back yet after 90 days.  He is told that he has received a Non-O visa so he is not on overstay, but he is also told that the extension of stay will take more time.  This was a highly recommended agent.  

C - and to add to the 'agents', 90 days holding a passport obviously not a good sign. When he receives his passport check the immigration office stamp, it may not be his local office stamp. Example - you assume if in Bangkok using an agent a CW stamp, not a Chachengsao or another near province Immigration stamp, this does happen, making extensions and 90 day reports problematic without your 'helpful' agent......

[skatewash]

12 minutes ago, CANSIAM said:

C - and to add to the 'agents', 90 days holding a passport obviously not a good sign. When he receives his passport check the immigration office stamp, it may not be his local office stamp. Example - you assume if in Bangkok using an agent a CW stamp, not a Chachengsao or another near province Immigration stamp, this does happen, making extensions and 90 day reports problematic without your 'helpful' agent......

Yes, if he gets his passport back it will have been stamped outside the province.  He would likely have problems getting a retirement extension in his province in future years without continuing to use the agent.  In his case, he could have met all the requirements for a retirement extension, the agent just seemed to be the easy way the "smart" people were getting their extensions.

[Andre0720]

32 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Regarding your specific questions:

a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.

b.  immigration can tell where your previous extensions were granted and if you used an agent.  I heard reports of people not being able to get extensions at some immigration offices, being told to use the agent again.

c.  a friend used a highly recommended agent to get his Non-O visa and retirement extension.  He hasn't gotten his passport back yet after 90 days.  He is told that he has received a Non-O visa so he is not on overstay, but he is also told that the extension of stay will take more time.  This was a highly recommended agent.  

"a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind."

 

 

1.-   "but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.". Certainly the OP would like to know the truth about the use of an Agent, not what you think is 'true' in your mind.

2.- . This part here: a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement, by all accounts, is not true.

 

When I got tired of going to Immigration to find out how to get an extension, I was told by an Officer that it could not be done. I then asked if there was someone in here that I could pay to obtain some help. (A way to ask if there was someone in this office that I could bribe hehe). I was told that it was impossible to do that. Then approaching me, and saying in a low tone 'GO see an Agent, they will fix it up for you.

 

Now this process, while not following all procedures to the letter, will get someone an official extension of stay.

Now this alternate process prevents any bribery to circumvent the rules. Legal in all respects, getting an official stamp, by the person in position of authority to approve the use of such an alternate process. No one else.

 

And other members here saying that it became obvious that the way IO acted in processing application for extension of stay, was to encourage people to use Agents, the alternate process, that is BENEFICIAL TO ALL.

[skatewash]

15 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

"a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind."

 

 

1.-   "but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.". Certainly the OP would like to know the truth about the use of an Agent, not what you think is 'true' in your mind.

2.- . This part here: a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement, by all accounts, is not true.

 

When I got tired of going to Immigration to find out how to get an extension, I was told by an Officer that it could not be done. I then asked if there was someone in here that I could pay to obtain some help. (A way to ask if there was someone in this office that I could bribe hehe). I was told that it was impossible to do that. Then approaching me, and saying in a low tone 'GO see an Agent, they will fix it up for you.

 

Now this process, while not following all procedures to the letter, will get someone an official extension of stay.

Now this alternate process prevents any bribery to circumvent the rules. Legal in all respects, getting an official stamp, by the person in position of authority to approve the use of such an alternate process. No one else.

 

And other members here saying that it became obvious that the way IO acted in processing application for extension of stay, was to encourage people to use Agents, the alternate process, that is BENEFICIAL TO ALL.

How in the world do you think the agent gets the extension? 

Following that reasoning it's completely legitimate to hire a hit man if someone is causing you a problem.  After all, all you did was give money to the hit man, what the hit man did to earn the money is not of any interest to you, as long as the person is not causing you a problem anymore.

If it's completely legitimate, why are people who purchased "volunteer" extensions from agents having problems now getting other extensions they would legally be allowed to obtain had they not used an agent previously?  
 

 

[Andre0720]

5 minutes ago, skatewash said:

How in the world do you think the agent gets the extension? 

Following that reasoning it's completely legitimate to hire a hit man if someone is causing you a problem.  After all, all you did was give money to the hit man, what the hit man did to earn the money is not of any interest to you, as long as the person is not causing you a problem anymore.

If it's completely legitimate, why are people who purchased "volunteer" extensions from agents having problems now getting other extensions they would legally be allowed to obtain had they not used an agent previously?  
 

 

Well, sophisms will get you nowhere.

I am not even sure if you are interested in replies, just the way you write. But if you are interested, here is what I know about it:

The 'Hitman' that you are referring to, is simply a 'facilitator' between a 'client', and the individual in power in a given Immigration Office.  Now this 'facilitator is authorized to make a procedure more 'reasonable', fewer hurdles, in order to obtain an authorization.

Now Immigration officers see very well that an authorization was facilitated. And they want to keep the process in-house.

Some Agents obtain such facilitating services locally, and others, from another jurisdiction. The problem MIGHT occur when another jurisdiction is used, and then trying to obtain a 90 days stamp locally. Change in jurisdiction. Some officers may not like that.

So when visiting Agent Offices, one must ask which Immigration Office is used to facilitate the process. If the answer is not 'a local Office', check with other Agents. Simply a guarantee of a better service later on.

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

Well, sophisms will get you nowhere.

I am not even sure if you are interested in replies, just the way you write. But if you are interested, here is what I know about it:

The 'Hitman' that you are referring to, is simply a 'facilitator' between a 'client', and the individual in power in a given Immigration Office.  Now this 'facilitator is authorized to make a procedure more 'reasonable', fewer hurdles, in order to obtain an authorization.

Now Immigration officers see very well that an authorization was facilitated. And they want to keep the process in-house.

Some Agents obtain such facilitating services locally, and others, from another jurisdiction. The problem MIGHT occur when another jurisdiction is used, and then trying to obtain a 90 days stamp locally. Change in jurisdiction. Some officers may not like that.

So when visiting Agent Offices, one must ask which Immigration Office is used to facilitate the process. If the answer is not 'a local Office', check with other Agents. Simply a guarantee of a better service later on.

So, bottom line does a government official get paid money to perform an official act?  If so, that's bribery.  Note that it does not matter that the government official is legally authorized to do what they do, it's the fact that they exercised their authority as a result of being paid money (a bribe).  The length of the chain and the number of intermediaries may be interesting to know but it doesn't alter the basic criminal act.  It seems you dislike using the term bribery and instead prefer terms like "facilitation,"  used to describe a process in which if there is no money exchanged the "facilitation" doesn't happen.  ???? 

Feel free to search for your own examples wherein using an agent fell somewhat short of a guarantee of better service.

[Andre0720]

17 minutes ago, skatewash said:

So, bottom line does a government official get paid money to perform an official act?  If so, that's bribery.  Note that it does not matter that the government official is legally authorized to do what they do, it's the fact that they exercised their authority as a result of being paid money (a bribe).  The length of the chain and the number of intermediaries may be interesting to know but it doesn't alter the basic criminal act.  It seems you dislike using the term bribery and instead prefer terms like "facilitation,"  used to describe a process in which if there is no money exchanged the "facilitation" doesn't happen.  ???? 

Feel free to search for your own examples wherein using an agent fell somewhat short of a guarantee of better service.

You know as well as I do that this Thailand. Strangely bribery was just about eliminated in Immigration Offices. But it has been replaced by another process. Agents, Facilitators.

 

-----From Wikipedia Many types of payments or favors may be fairly or unfairly labeled as bribes: tip, gift, sop, perk, skim, favor, discount, waived fee/ticket, free food, free ad, free trip, free tickets, sweetheart deal, kickback/payback, funding, inflated sale of an object or property, lucrative contract, donation, campaign contribution, fundraiser, sponsorship/backing, higher paying job, stock options, secret commission, or promotion (rise of position/rank).

One must be careful of differing social and cultural norms when examining bribery. Expectations of when a monetary transaction is appropriate can differ from place to place. Political campaign contributions in the form of cash, for example, are considered criminal acts of bribery in some countries, while in the United States, provided they adhere to election law, are legal. Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable.

[chilly07]

2 hours ago, skatewash said:

Regarding your specific questions:

a.  you are paying an agent to bribe a government official to waive a requirement.  You may get away with that, but that doesn't make it legitimate in my mind.

b.  immigration can tell where your previous extensions were granted and if you used an agent.  I heard reports of people not being able to get extensions at some immigration offices, being told to use the agent again.

c.  a friend used a highly recommended agent to get his Non-O visa and retirement extension.  He hasn't gotten his passport back yet after 90 days.  He is told that he has received a Non-O visa so he is not on overstay, but he is also told that the extension of stay will take more time.  This was a highly recommended agent.  

Not so!

The agent does the donkey work for Immigration who then exercise their legitimate discretion to approve the extension. 

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

You know as well as I do that this Thailand. Strangely bribery was just about eliminated in Immigration Offices. But it has been replaced by another process. Agents, Facilitators.

 

-----From Wikipedia Many types of payments or favors may be fairly or unfairly labeled as bribes: tip, gift, sop, perk, skim, favor, discount, waived fee/ticket, free food, free ad, free trip, free tickets, sweetheart deal, kickback/payback, funding, inflated sale of an object or property, lucrative contract, donation, campaign contribution, fundraiser, sponsorship/backing, higher paying job, stock options, secret commission, or promotion (rise of position/rank).

One must be careful of differing social and cultural norms when examining bribery. Expectations of when a monetary transaction is appropriate can differ from place to place. Political campaign contributions in the form of cash, for example, are considered criminal acts of bribery in some countries, while in the United States, provided they adhere to election law, are legal. Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable.

What constitutes a bribe in Thailand?:
 

Quote

 

Under pursuant of Section 149, Penal Code of Kingdom of Thailand, stating that “Any person, who is a competent official, a member of the State Legislature Assembly, a member of the Provincial Assembly or a member of the Municipal Assembly, wrongfully demands, accepts or agrees to accept property or any other benefit for himself [or herself] or for any other person for carrying out or abstaining from carrying out any act in his [or her position, irrespective of whether or not such act is the improper performance of duty…”
 

The PSC Act defines a bribe as a giving of gift or benefit, regardless of the value, to an official to solicit a benefit in kind (section 128 PSC Act). The PSC Act definition of an official includes officials of foreign countries, officials of intergovernmental organizations, employees of government agencies and state enterprises, and state officials who have retired or resigned from their position less than two years previously (section 128 PSC Act).

 

https://www.dlapiper.com/en/us/insights/publications/2019/09/bribery-offenses-guide/thailand/#:~:text=What are the legal consequences,175 and 176 PSC Act).

Driving past a police checkpoint on a motorcycle without wearing a helmet and without being stopped does not imply that you can legally not wear a helmet on a motorcycle.  A lengthy discussion can be had on whether you will be caught and even how likely it is that you will be caught, but the discussion about whether it is legal or not seems to me like it ought to be a very short one indeed.

[Thingamabob]

The law states that to obtain an extension to a non-o retirement visa you are required to keep 800k in a Thai bank for a specified period. If you employ an agent in order to pretend you are obeying the law, because in reality you do not have the statutory 800k, you are breaking the law. If you have the statutory 800k, and you are employing an agent for convenience, you are not breaking the law.

[PumpkinEater]

I know many people that use agents for a non O…but these are guys that never leave Thailand.

My question is that if I go through an agent for the non O, and leave Thailand on a trip back home (of course getting a single entry permit on the way out),..when I return to Thailand will that stamp obtained by the agent be valid and legal in the system for my return, or will immigration look at you and say “what is this Sir!” ?

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, PumpkinEater said:

My question is that if I go through an agent for the non O, and leave Thailand on a trip back home (of course getting a single entry permit on the way out),..when I return to Thailand will that stamp obtained by the agent be valid and legal in the system for my return, or will immigration look at you and say “what is this Sir!” ?

The are real and valid extensions done by a immigration office unless you use some person on the street to do it.

[CANSIAM]

3 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

The law states that to obtain an extension to a non-o retirement visa you are required to keep 800k in a Thai bank for a specified period. If you employ an agent in order to pretend you are obeying the law, because in reality you do not have the statutory 800k, you are breaking the law. If you have the statutory 800k, and you are employing an agent for convenience, you are not breaking the law.

In the latter case, the agent fee 'being convenience' should be 5000 baht max for paper work, not 15-30k when having the funds required.....

[oldcpu]

If the trend of relaxing travel requirements continue (such as going to Vietnam or other near by countries) during this pandemic times , if fully vaccinated, it may be possible to leave Thailand, invalidate the Type-O visa, and then return Visa exempt. And as soon as one is in Thailand, apply for a new Type-O visa.  Then two months later apply for a 1-year extension on the permission to stay.

 

I think < not sure > that should enable one to not have to prove 800K in the bank for critical times during the past year (and 400K at other times).  Rather one would only need to show the 800K for past 2 to 3 months (I believe).

 

Of course there is an expense going in/out/in of the country, not to mention the need to buy COVID insurance for the 30-days of the Visa exempt, that when all costs are added up could come close to what one pays an agent, or possibly even a bit more expense to do this legitimately (not to mention the inconvenience of travel), but it could remove any legitimacy concerns. 

 

If/when this pandemic finally ends, things will hopefully get a lot easier.

Edited February 15, 2022 by oldcpu

[EVENKEEL]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:59 PM, PumpkinEater said:

I know many people that use agents for a non O…but these are guys that never leave Thailand.

My question is that if I go through an agent for the non O, and leave Thailand on a trip back home (of course getting a single entry permit on the way out),..when I return to Thailand will that stamp obtained by the agent be valid and legal in the system for my return, or will immigration look at you and say “what is this Sir!” ?

I used an agent last year for OA extension. I went to immigration with agent, had my photo taken and IO handed me my passport with 12 mos extension in place. Everything was legit.

[Londinium]

Thanks for all the replies, with the very mixed views on using an agent,

 

I’ll probably just start again and do it myself.

 

[Londinium]

My situation is a bit different in that I only stay a maximum of 180 days (i.e, half the year) each year and if there was a way of staying for that length of time without renewing the extension each year (with its necessity of keeping 800,000 baht on ice) then, of course, I would go for it.