Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Have a World War to stop a World war ?

I can see a problem with that logic 

When did people in the Right wing become such wimps?

 

Look out, he's making vague threats to do something!  We better surrender!

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, heybruce said:

When did people in the Right wing become such wimps?

 

Look out, he's making vague threats to do something!  We better surrender!

I take it that you are a Left Winger who wants to have a war ?

Wars are sometimes necessary, but IMO , they should be avoided and only begin a war when there's no other option 

[Mac Mickmanus]

30 minutes ago, heybruce said:

When did people in the Right wing become such wimps?

 

Look out, he's making vague threats to do something!  We better surrender!

Interesting that you regard not wanting to have a war as being a "wimp"

Just out of curiosity , if a war with Russia does break out , will you be signing up for the army and personally going to fight the Russians or will you be sitting back and watching others going off to the front line to fight ?  

   Will you be in the trenches or will you be cheering them on from afar ?

[milys]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Its not a case of being either "Pro Putin " or "Anti Putin " , its being in the category of not wanting another World War . 

   Do you consider that not wanting a World War to be a "Right -wing nutter" stance on the situation ?

It seems that your point is; Let Putin have his way and not get involved to avoid war.

You said that Putin started this to avoid Ukraine joining NATO. Well that plan has backfired, now Finland and Sweden are joining NATO. Most of the Pro Putin people are right wing nutters, fascists and ignorants.

You should be ashamed spreading Russian propaganda.

[heybruce]

15 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I take it that you are a Left Winger who wants to have a war ?

Wars are sometimes necessary, but IMO , they should be avoided and only begin a war when there's no other option 

On another forum I was called a leftist for opposing a military coup against a democratic government.  If a leftist is anyone who opposes dictatorship, then I'll happily accept the label.

 

I probably know more about nuclear war, and deterrence of nuclear war, than you do.  Rewarding nuclear blackmail is not an effective deterrence.  And a war has already been started by Russia.

[heybruce]

22 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I take it that you are a Left Winger who wants to have a war ?

Wars are sometimes necessary, but IMO , they should be avoided and only begin a war when there's no other option 

On another forum I was called a leftist for opposing a military coup against a democratic government.  If a leftist is anyone who opposes dictatorship, then I'll happily accept the label.

 

I probably know more about nuclear war, and deterrence of nuclear war, than you do.  Rewarding nuclear blackmail is not an effective deterrence.  And a war has already been started by Russia.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

On another forum I was called a leftist for opposing a military coup against a democratic government.  If a leftist is anyone who opposes dictatorship, then I'll happily accept the label.

 

I probably know more about nuclear war, and deterrence of nuclear war, than you do.  Rewarding nuclear blackmail is not an effective deterrence.  And a war has already been started by Russia.

Starting a war with a Country that has Nuclear weapons isn't such a good way to avoid a nuclear war .

  Don't start a war with Russia and we can all avoid a Nuclear conflict .

If Russia starts to attack the Western World , then we should then retaliate .

But we should nt be the ones who start the war  .

 

[heybruce]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Interesting that you regard not wanting to have a war as being a "wimp"

Just out of curiosity , if a war with Russia does break out , will you be signing up for the army and personally going to fight the Russians or will you be sitting back and watching others going off to the front line to fight ?  

   Will you be in the trenches or will you be cheering them on from afar ?

I'm a retired USAF officer.  I made inquiries after 9/11 to see if I could return, but received no answer.

 

The same will probably happen if there is a war with Russia.  But if called on to serve, I will.

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Starting a war with a Country that has Nuclear weapons isn't such a good way to avoid a nuclear war .

  Don't start a war with Russia and we can all avoid a Nuclear conflict .

If Russia starts to attack the Western World , then we should then retaliate .

But we should nt be the ones who start the war  .

 

We're not starting a war.  We're supporting a democracy that was invaded by an autocracy.

 

We should continue to support Ukraine, and call Putin's vague bluffs.  If we reward nuclear threats we can expect more of them. 

 

In 1938 Prime Minister Chamberlain tried to maintain peace by appeasing Hitler and giving him the go-ahead to annex part of Czechoslovakia.  That didn't end well.  If we don't remember the 20th century failures of appeasement and make the same mistakes with this century's Hitlers, it won't end well this time either.

Edited April 19, 2022 by heybruce

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The USA's recent interventions in Vietnam , Iraq and Afghanistan didnt end to well  and attacking Russia military's bases wouldn't put an end to the war , it would cause an escalation and reprisals 

Russia has already made a big miscalculated error on how much resistance Ukraine would be capable of but I get the feeling that people here forget Russia is a nuclear power. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

We're not starting a war.  We're supporting a democracy that was invaded by an autocracy.

Although if NATO intervenes, it would indeed be starting a war with Russia 

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although if NATO intervenes, it would indeed be starting a war with Russia 

The support NATO countries are providing now is intervening.  If NATO gets directly involved in combat in Ukraine or Russian territory, it would be an escalation that may lead to war.  However currently no country is advocating that.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The support NATO countries are providing now is intervening.  If NATO gets directly involved in combat in Ukraine or Russian territory, it would be an escalation that may lead to war.  However currently no country is advocating that.

There is a line between selling/giving a Country weapons , which is a normal occurrence and sending your own military in for fight face to face and I was referring to the latter .

   Giving support to Ukraine in supplying them with weapons is one thing , sending our Army in is another very different thing 

[tgw]

23 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although if NATO intervenes, it would indeed be starting a war with Russia 

 

Technically, NATO can remain at peace while one or several of its members conduct a "special peacekeeping operation" on the ground and the sky of Ukraine.

BUT the problem is not that.

The problem is to determine where it the operation should stop.

Stopping at the pre-invasion controlled territories of Ukraine would amount to de-facto recognize the separatists and the Crimea landgrab.

Going beyond that would be to give Russian people a reason to call for war.

So Ukraine will have to do this alone to win back its territories.

That's what Putin bets on. That calculation of his is correct.

Where he grossly miscalculated, is that he didn't give Ukraine and the rest of the "free world" an acceptable concession he would be able to sell at home as a win.

That's where I guess he has some kind of mental condition that prevented him from anticipating this.

So we have a situation:
- where Putin is with his back to the wall (i.e. increasingly desperate and dangerous).

- Russia's word and assurances, signatures in international treaties is worthless

- Ukraine can't accept any scenario Putin could sell as a win

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by tgw

[farmerjo]

Ukraine clearly think they have the situation under control.

They appear to have an ace up the sleeve.

It's just a matter of time before they produce it.

 

[tomyami]

HA HA them ruskies are hilarious as well being the most vile human beings on the planet.

[heybruce]

42 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

There is a line between selling/giving a Country weapons , which is a normal occurrence and sending your own military in for fight face to face and I was referring to the latter .

   Giving support to Ukraine in supplying them with weapons is one thing , sending our Army in is another very different thing 

I am not aware of any country that is proposing to send its military into Ukraine to fight Russia.

[Bkk Brian]

24 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Ukraine clearly think they have the situation under control.

They appear to have an ace up the sleeve.

It's just a matter of time before they produce it.

 

Did you think you would get brownie points from Vlad for that inconsiderate flipant post?

 

Ukraine is fighting for its very existence, there is nothing under control. Although they have already foiled Putins plans to have it over in a few days.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

NATO imposing no fly zones in Ukraine would trigger a World War . 

Or at least that’s what Putin wants you to infer from his veiled threats.

 

And you went right ahead on and inferred it, then posted it here.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Have a World War to stop a World war ?

I can see a problem with that logic 

Hypothetical world war to stop a hypothetical world war.

 

Don’t you see the rabbit hole you’ve been directed down by Russian propaganda?

[Kwasaki]

16 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I am not aware of any country that is proposing to send its military into Ukraine to fight Russia.

Isn't the SAS on the ground teaching Ukrainian soldiers advanced weapons.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I take it that you are a Left Winger who wants to have a war ?

Wars are sometimes necessary, but IMO , they should be avoided and only begin a war when there's no other option 

A disgraceful slur.

 

The only person who wanted a war is the guy who gave the order to invade.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Isn't the SAS on the ground teaching Ukrainian soldiers advanced weapons.

I rather hope do.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The USA's recent interventions in Vietnam , Iraq and Afghanistan didnt end to well  and attacking Russia military's bases wouldn't put an end to the war , it would cause an escalation and reprisals 

Why would anyone need to wipe out Russian bases?

 

Russia is sending its military assets into Ukraine where they are legitimate targets without giving any excuse for escalation.

 

Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are all examples of why Russia will not win the asymmetric war its got itself into.

 

Afghanistan is seemingly an an example the Russians themselves failed to learn from.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Starting a war with a Country that has Nuclear weapons isn't such a good way to avoid a nuclear war .

  Don't start a war with Russia and we can all avoid a Nuclear conflict .

If Russia starts to attack the Western World , then we should then retaliate .

But we should nt be the ones who start the war  .

 

Starting a war? There already is a war! Immediate total surrender wouldn't end it. The war would simply spread. It's too late to stop the war, containment must be thew goal. Nobody in their right mind believes that ceding control of Ukraine to Putin would stop his grandiose ambitions.

[Mac Mickmanus]

26 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hypothetical world war to stop a hypothetical world war.

 

Don’t you see the rabbit hole you’ve been directed down by Russian propaganda?

Maybe you didn't follow the discussion ?

It was stated that  Putin intents to keep on invading other Countries after Ukraine , which would trigger a World war and the only way to stop a world War would be to attack Russia now ........................which would cause a world war 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Maybe you didn't follow the discussion ?

It was stated that  Putin intents to keep on invading other Countries after Ukraine , which would trigger a World war and the only way to stop a world War would be to attack Russia now ........................which would cause a world war 

I didn't read that bit. I don't think anybody suggested attacking Russia, just not surrendering is the message.

 

At least you're on message from the Russian pov.

 

Russia’s defense minister has accused the U.S. and other Western nations of supplying Ukraine with weapons so that it continues fighting “until the last Ukrainian.”

Sergei Shoigu said Tuesday at a meeting with the top military brass that Washington and its allies are doing all they can to drag out Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-donetsk-56a3dd893da43c67f99260eb2ee9ae66

Edited April 19, 2022 by ozimoron

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Maybe you didn't follow the discussion ?

It was stated that  Putin intents to keep on invading other Countries after Ukraine , which would trigger a World war and the only way to stop a world War would be to attack Russia now ........................which would cause a world war 

You made that up.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You made that up.

 

 

Scroll back and see .

Try reading all the thread , I cannot keep repeating what has been posted and bringing you up to date with the discussion 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scroll back and see .

Try reading all the thread , I cannot keep repeating what has been posted and bringing you up to date with the discussion 

 

I confirm you made it up. It started with you calling for a vote on who wanted to start a war. Stop lying