Thai Airlines Urged to Conduct Inspection of Boeing 737-800

[pacovl46]

6 hours ago, aussiexpat said:

You have to stop banging on about 6000m in 1 min = 360 km/h as fact. It has been pointed out many times that planes send live data and this shows aircraft reached 590 knots at one point (approx 1090 km/h)

 

Here is the actual data with yellow line showing the varying speed. Grey line shows the varying descent rate in feet per minute

 

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/china-eastern-airlines-flight-5735-crashes-en-route-to-guangzhou/

Thanks for clearing it up! 

[pacovl46]

4 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Ironically Paco the latest rendering of the evidence is right there in your very own post above! 

 

Go back up there and take a look at the 'Flightradar'  data. Scroll down to 06:21:45Z (that's GMT by the way). Now look across. The aircraft is at 7,850 ft and shows an airspeed of 590 knots. That's its terminal velocity. It then begins to slow down again because it is coming into denser air, hence more drag.

 

Now if you want to dispute that, take it up with Flighradar. I've had enough of this nonsense.

 

 

 

Sorry, mate, but terminal velocity does not mean maximum speed attained while powered by an engine while going horizontally. Terminal velocity is the maximum speed an object can reach vertically in free fall while not being powered by anything, 

[pacovl46]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

So "boring" that you continue to read and respond.

 

Try to understand that your feelings about my comments are irrelevant to the discussion as long as my posts are not insults or flames.  Your feelings are your problem that you need to sort out, I can do nothing about them.  

OR you could go about your posts in a more gentlemanly fashion...

[CharlieH]

Reported bickering removed

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

Sorry, mate, but terminal velocity does not mean maximum speed attained while powered by an engine while going horizontally.

Who said it was? It certainly wasn't me. The aircraft was falling out of the sky when it reached 590 knots. 

By your definition that's its terminal velocity.

 

[aussiexpat]

Going by the graph, the plane reached 590 knots just before it started to climb again. No matter what caused the initial dive, pulling out of a 30,000 feet per minute dive to start gaining altitude at 590 knots must have nearly torn the plane apart.... so no wonder it went into a 2nd dive shortly after

 

Note: B737-800 rated max speed is supposed to be 522 knots 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by aussiexpat

[Mr Derek]

Inspect the planes by all means (though I would assume they are regularly inspected anyway) but try inspecting the mental health of pilots as well. In the circumstances, this was most likely a suicide mission. It happens... Lion Air in Indonesia, Germanwings in the Alps, MH370 into oblivion... why pretend it doesn't?

[pacovl46]

21 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Who said it was? It certainly wasn't me. The aircraft was falling out of the sky when it reached 590 knots. 

By your definition that's its terminal velocity.

 

It didn't reach that speed in free fall. There's no way it could've gotten that fast in free fall due to air friction. The fastest thing on the planet in free fall is the peregrine falcon which reaches 320km/h and that falcon is built to do exactly that, meaning it's more aerodynamic than a passenger plane. A skydiver in boxman position can reach about 197km/h and nose down about 290km/h. Every object on the planet will max out in the 300s or around the 300 km/h mark due to air friction, and for the nitpickers, obviously something like a feather would be much slower.

 

Which brings me back to my initial point and the supossed slow decent rate the plane had that was mentioned in the initial reports which made me think the engines might have been off. Of course since then the information came out that the plane ascended again before it plummeted to the ground. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by pacovl46
Typo

[Sydebolle]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:36 AM, ozfarang said:

@Sydebolle, you said, "third captain (unclear also, why there were three pilots on this aircraft)."

the third pilot was not a captain, so do some research and get your facts right instead of coming up with BS facts to suit your opinion.

 

An endorsed pilot on the B737-600/700/800/900 NG series does not need extra training to fly any of these aircraft. 

....... and your horse too; you're welcome! 

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

It didn't reach that speed in free fall. There's no way it could've gotten that fast in free fall due to air friction. The fastest thing on the planet in free fall is the peregrine falcon which reaches 320km/h and that falcon is built to do exactly that, meaning it's more aerodynamic than a passenger plane. A skydiver in boxman position can reach about 197km/h and nose down about 290km/h. Every object on the planet will max out in the 300s or around the 300 km/h mark due to air friction, and for the nitpickers, obviously something like a feather would be much slower.

 

Which brings me back to my initial point and the supossed slow decent rate the plane had that was mentioned in the initial reports which made me think the engines might have been off. Of course since then the information came out that the plane ascended again before it plummeted to the ground. 

 

 

 

 

Well done. you got there at last. I said in my very first post that it couldn't be a double engine failure didn't I. Recall that I said: 

 

'One can rule out engine failure straight away. A double engine failure is a very rare event and even if it did happen, aircraft can and do glide. Pilots train for such an event in the simulator. In addition there was no 'mayday' call'.

 

I've been convinced from the get go that this was a suicide/murder affair and it seem to be firming up that way.

 

Good bit of research on 'terminal velocity' by the way.

 

 

[aussiexpat]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Good bit of research on 'terminal velocity' by the way.

Bah, his terminal velocity theory has no relevance to this crash, but if he did do decent research he should have at least calculated it with the proper terminal velocity formula ???? 

 

[Moonlover]

16 hours ago, Mr Derek said:

Inspect the planes by all means (though I would assume they are regularly inspected anyway) but try inspecting the mental health of pilots as well. In the circumstances, this was most likely a suicide mission. It happens... Lion Air in Indonesia, Germanwings in the Alps, MH370 into oblivion... why pretend it doesn't?

The Lion Air crash was not suicide. It was the first of the two 737 Max crashes caused by a software flaw in the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System - or MCAS. (Sorry for the mouthful) I agree with the other 2 though.

 

A good example to cite was Egyptair 990 out of New York in 1999. It was proven by US examiners including the FBI to have been a suicide/murder, but Egypt is still in denial of that. That one also, briefly came out of its death dive due to struggle for control in the cockpit.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Moonlover

[Moonlover]

21 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

16 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Good bit of research on 'terminal velocity' by the way.

 

21 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Bah, his terminal velocity theory has no relevance to this crash,

He has already agreed to that now that he realizes that the engines must have been still running. (Well, tacitly agreed)

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Moonlover

[TropicalGuy]

Without knowing what to look for ?

why aren’t existing inspection systems adequate? 
usual knee -jerk tiresome emotional political nonsense …..” look at us taking action” (any action no matter how useless)…..govt. like kids here.

 

aircraft dropping like stones out of the sky from 30k up is unheard of by first rate airlines…… human error for sure.inspect for THAT ! 

[TropicalGuy]

38 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

The Lion Air crash was not suicide. It was the first of the two 737 Max crashes caused by a software flaw in the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System - or MCAS. (Sorry for the mouthful) I agree with the other 2 though.

 

A good example to cite was Egyptair 990 out of New York in 1999. It was proven by US examiners including the FBI to have been a suicide/murder, but Egypt is still in denial of that. That one also, briefly came out of its death dive due to struggle for control in the cockpit.

 

 

Lion Air Crash caused by untrained pilots unable to bypass software.

[aussiexpat]

7 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

aircraft dropping like stones out of the sky from 30k up is unheard of by first rate airlines…… human error for sure.inspect for THAT ! 

Nice assumption. 40 years experience in aviation says it could be pilot suicide, could also be bulkhead failure, mid air collision, bomb, what's the point of speculating.

 

Surprised CVR was discovered 6 days ago and yet no news yet what it says. If pilot suicide, this would be on the CVR as 2 other pilots in cockpit

[nrasmussen]

17 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Nice assumption. 40 years experience in aviation says it could be pilot suicide, could also be bulkhead failure, mid air collision, bomb, what's the point of speculating.

 

Surprised CVR was discovered 6 days ago and yet no news yet what it says. If pilot suicide, this would be on the CVR as 2 other pilots in cockpit

Interim reports into a crash are published after a month, so a little more patience is needed.

[TropicalGuy]

14 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Nice assumption. 40 years experience in aviation says it could be pilot suicide, could also be bulkhead failure, mid air collision, bomb, what's the point of speculating.

 

Surprised CVR was discovered 6 days ago and yet no news yet what it says. If pilot suicide, this would be on the CVR as 2 other pilots in cockpit

Probably why nothing published …..human error / must save “ face”.

CCP to Doctor the physical evidence to show design / material failure in line with previous failures for this model aircraft….hear US Safety Investigators are on site though……..

even bulkhead collapse could be down to human error….. not complying with maintenance checks. 

[nrasmussen]

17 hours ago, Mr Derek said:

Inspect the planes by all means (though I would assume they are regularly inspected anyway) but try inspecting the mental health of pilots as well. In the circumstances, this was most likely a suicide mission. It happens... Lion Air in Indonesia, Germanwings in the Alps, MH370 into oblivion... why pretend it doesn't?

No one is pretending that it cannot happen. It can and it has. That's the reason a pilot cannot be alone in the cockpit anymore. If one of the pilots has to go out (to go to the lavatory for example), one of the flight attendants will enter the cockpit and stay there until the pilot returns.

[jacko45k]

On 3/29/2022 at 3:58 PM, TropicalGuy said:

Lion Air Crash caused by untrained pilots unable to bypass software.

Not 'caused by' at all.......defective software overriding pilot actions and pushing the nose down! I believe the only way they could have prevented this was to open circuit breakers to defeat this. Blaming the pilots in that instance is misdirection...... The fact that this was allowed to happen a second time was unforgivable.

[kimamey]

On 3/26/2022 at 6:11 AM, Damrongsak said:

I always liked flying in 737s.  Their wings didn't flap like 727s.

Bound to crash then. You can't glide forever. ????

[kimamey]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:42 AM, mania said:

When the whole covid deal hit I told my wife....If it is a year+ of this I will not be the first to fly.

 

Reason being these planes are not meant to sit idle in hangars for 1 year +

 

I hope I was wrong

 

 

They won't all be back flying in one go so o it shouldn't be that difficult to gary then back in order and the would be routine maintenence as well. 

 

A bigger problem is probably the pilots as many won't have flown for a while and you can't just check them over from a maintenance manual. 

[Mr Derek]

On 3/29/2022 at 3:19 PM, Moonlover said:

The Lion Air crash was not suicide. It was the first of the two 737 Max crashes caused by a software flaw in the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System - or MCAS. (Sorry for the mouthful) I agree with the other 2 though.

 

A good example to cite was Egyptair 990 out of New York in 1999. It was proven by US examiners including the FBI to have been a suicide/murder, but Egypt is still in denial of that. That one also, briefly came out of its death dive due to struggle for control in the cockpit.

 

 

On 3/29/2022 at 3:58 PM, TropicalGuy said:

Lion Air Crash caused by untrained pilots unable to bypass software.

Sorry, I meant the Silk Air crash off Sumatra. That was judged to be pilot suicide and I read somewhere that it had a similar near-vertical trajectory to the China crash.

 

I mention it because there are people above discounting pilot suicide off hand as if they simply don't believe it can happen, and everybody else seems to be thinking that is was caused by something technical without any plausible explanation. Occam is not always right but should be applied first.

[Moonlover]

23 minutes ago, Mr Derek said:

 

Sorry, I meant the Silk Air crash off Sumatra. That was judged to be pilot suicide and I read somewhere that it had a similar near-vertical trajectory to the China crash.

 

I mention it because there are people above discounting pilot suicide off hand as if they simply don't believe it can happen, and everybody else seems to be thinking that is was caused by something technical without any plausible explanation. Occam is not always right but should be applied first.

Well, actually Silk Air wasn't judged to be suicide by the Indonesian authorities, despite the emphatic insistence by the NTSC examiners that it was. Which leads me to a disturbing correlation.

 

EgyptAir 990 off the coast of USA in 1999, Royal Air Maroc Flight 630 in 1994, Malaysia Airlines flight MH 370 in 2014 and Silk Air of course. All of them deemed to be pilot suicides. All 4 countries are Muslim and all 4 remain in denial that they were pilot suicides. Choose your next flight carefully. ????

 

[TropicalGuy]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Not 'caused by' at all.......defective software overriding pilot actions and pushing the nose down! I believe the only way they could have prevented this was to open circuit breakers to defeat this. Blaming the pilots in that instance is misdirection...... The fact that this was allowed to happen a second time was unforgivable.

Read Several prior identical cases where western pilots described managing to overcome this …. as they had properly completed full training on all new systems. 

[aussiexpat]

China's Aviation Authority has promised a prelinary report within 30 days of the crash (so by 20 April).

https://www.cgtn.com/special/Live-updates-Passenger-plane-crashes-in-south-China-rescue-underway.html

[nrasmussen]

33 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

China's Aviation Authority has promised a prelinary report within 30 days of the crash (so by 20 April).

https://www.cgtn.com/special/Live-updates-Passenger-plane-crashes-in-south-China-rescue-underway.html

As they are required to do: https://www.icao.int/about-icao/FAQ/Pages/icao-frequently-asked-questions-faq-11.aspx

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Read Several prior identical cases where western pilots described managing to overcome this …. as they had properly completed full training on all new systems. 

And yet this aircraft was allowed to continue flying with such a defect.... Boeing has the blood of 346 on its hands. 

[TropicalGuy]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

And yet this aircraft was allowed to continue flying with such a defect.... Boeing has the blood of 346 on its hands. 

Defect or Characteristic ? Boeing and/ or Airlines ? Will research findings made by the US Safety Board ……

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

Defect or Characteristic ? Boeing and/ or Airlines ? Will research findings made by the US Safety Board ……

The 'characteristic' of nose-diving into the ground killing all on board?

I think even 'defect' is a understatement.... but I focus on the -Max incidents here.... the recent 737-800  crash in China, the cause has yet to be established.