Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Why? Virtually every locomotive in the US is powered this way as are many/most newer luxury yachts. 

 

You would get the performance of an electric motor, and the convenience and range of an ICE.  

 

You would get the performance of an electric motor, and the convenience of an ICE along with the series connection losses.
 

Any disadvantages or inefficiencies in the diesel electric system are in many applications far outweighed by the fact that electric motors can deliver very high torque on demand (to multiple axles if required) without the need for complex gearbox and clutch arrangements. 

Applying this series technology to cars and adding a battery raises some efficiency questions around the regenerative systems being capable of compensating for efficiency losses during all driving conditions. A series connected hybrid car would be fantastic if it continually travelled uphill unloaded and back down with a full load.
 

[JBChiangRai]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So you did not read the article? 

 

Yes I did, like I said it's pie in the sky.  Nuclear production will never be viable, most countries don't have them anyway and it's anything up to 25 year lead time on new ones.  It's not going to happen.

 

Postcript, I wrote Pie in the Sky after I quoted the Nuclear article, for some reason I'm not seeing it in my post.

Edited April 5 by JBChiangRai

[sirineou]

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Hydrogen is always going to cost more per mile than a BEV, currently at least 5 times more, it will never be better than twice as much.

 

Whilst there is H2 underground, it's neither accessible nor economic to frack it.  The only sustainable way to produce it is to electrolyse water.  33% of the energy used to produce it is wasted producing Oxygen (which you can produce far cheaper), it is mathematically impossible to improve on that figure which assumes 100% efficiency in the electrolysis which is also impossible.  Then we have to compress it and distribute it to fuel stations and finally use it in the car, presumably a H2 Fuel Cell which is unlikely to be ever more than 65% efficient as heat is produced as a waste product.

 

I believe you will see H2 cars but they will cost more to run so they will have to be cheaper to buy or people won't buy them. 

 

The other issue is time to refuel, it currently takes 10 minutes to refuel H2 for 300km, it will be no faster than future BEV's which may well be shorter.

Hydrogen is  Not always going to cost more per mile than a BEV, currently at least 5 times more, it will never be better than twice as much.

The only sustainable way to produce it is not  to electrolyse water.  33% of the energy used to produce it is not wasted producing Oxygen (which you can produce far cheaper),

 Then we don't  have to compress it and distribute it to fuel stations and finally use it in the car,

I believe you will see H2 cars but they will not cost more to run so they will  be just as cheap to buy or people won't buy them. 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, sirineou said:

Hydrogen is  Not always going to cost more per mile than a BEV, currently at least 5 times more, it will never be better than twice as much.

The only sustainable way to produce it is not  to electrolyse water.  33% of the energy used to produce it is not wasted producing Oxygen (which you can produce far cheaper),

 Then we don't  have to compress it and distribute it to fuel stations and finally use it in the car,

I believe you will see H2 cars but they will not cost more to run so they will  be just as cheap to buy or people won't buy them. 

 

 

 

Then somebody will have to subsidise it, I don't think that is going to happen.

 

I stand by what I said.  Most experts think electrolysing water is the way to go and 33% of the energy IS wasted producing Oxygen (2 of H₂ and 1 of O₂ produced from each molecule, this IS the science).

 

Hydrogen cars will be cheaper and the premium option will be a BEV.

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yes I did, like I said it's pie in the sky.  Nuclear production will never be viable, most countries don't have them anyway and it's anything up to 25 year lead time on new ones.  It's not going to happen.

 

Postcript, I wrote Pie in the Sky after I quoted the Nuclear article, for some reason I'm not seeing it in my post.

Nuclear production will never be viable? It's been viable for almost 70 years. By a wide margin, most of France's electoral power is nuclear. 

 

Up to 25 years. Twenty of the 25-year lead time is political. Average is under ten, and it can be as little as four. 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Then somebody will have to subsidise it, I don't think that is going to happen.

 

I stand by what I said.  Most experts think electrolysing water is the way to go and 33% of the energy IS wasted producing Oxygen (2 of H₂ and 1 of O₂ produced from each molecule, this IS the science).

 

Hydrogen cars will be cheaper and the premium option will be a BEV.

 

It certainly won't if the EV industry and their fan-boys (just kidding) have anything to say about it...

[JBChiangRai]

The legalized cost of pink hydrogen through nuclear is about 2/3 of the cost of it being produced by water electrolysis.

 

It’s still expensive, it doesn’t currently exist and there is too much objection to nuclear for it to happen.

 

I agree with the experts, electrolysis will be how Hydrogen will be produced. Nuclear Pink Hydrogen is at least 25 years away, if it ever happens, which I doubt.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

The legalized cost of pink hydrogen through nuclear is about 2/3 of the cost of it being produced by water electrolysis.

 

It’s still expensive, it doesn’t currently exist and there is too much objection to nuclear for it to happen.

 

I agree with the experts, electrolysis will be how Hydrogen will be produced. Nuclear Pink Hydrogen is at least 25 years away, if it ever happens, which I doubt.

And let’s not forget, almost all the cars sold in half that time will be BEV, and they will all be EV.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The legalized cost of pink hydrogen through nuclear is about 2/3 of the cost of it being produced by water electrolysis.

 

It’s still expensive, it doesn’t currently exist and there is too much objection to nuclear for it to happen.

 

I agree with the experts, electrolysis will be how Hydrogen will be produced. Nuclear Pink Hydrogen is at least 25 years away, if it ever happens, which I doubt.

It won't be available for 25 years, but you know what it costs. 

 

Who do the experts you are referring to work for? 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

And let’s not forget, almost all the cars sold in half that time will be BEV, and they will all be EV.

Certainly if the EV industry and their fan-boys (just kidding) and leftist governments have anything to say about it..

[JBChiangRai]

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It won't be available for 25 years, but you know what it costs. 

 

Who do the experts you are referring to work for? 

 

No those sponsored by Toyota!

 

Seriously though, most experts believe electrolysing water is the way to go.

 

We may well have Pink Nuclear Hydrogen, but not in my lifetime and i hope to be here 20-25 years.

 

Maybe @Lacessit will give us his opinion

Edited April 5 by JBChiangRai

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

No those sponsored by Toyota!

 

Seriously though, most experts believe electrolysing water is the way to go.

 

We may well have Pink Nuclear Hydrogen, but not in my lifetime and i hope to be here 20-25 years.

 

Maybe @Lacessit will give us his opinion

You lose credibility when play fast and loose with facts and make silly claims and do not even attempt to support. 

 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You lose credibility when play fast and loose with facts and make silly claims and do not even attempt to support. 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't realistically expect me name articles I have read over the last 2 years and remember who wrote them.

 

What I have done is asked AI "What are the experts predicting as most likely source of Hydrogen" and this is the reply

In summary it's blue & green hydrogen, not nuclear (pink) hydrogen

 

Hydrogen, as a clean energy carrier, holds significant promise for decarbonizing various sectors. Let’s explore what experts predict as the most likely sources of hydrogen in the next 20 years:

1. Grey Hydrogen:

   • Current Dominance: Grey hydrogen, produced from natural gas via steam methane reforming (SMR), currently dominates the market.
   • Projected Decline: However, demand for grey hydrogen is expected to decline as cleaner alternatives gain traction.
   • Role in Transition: Grey hydrogen may play a role during the transition phase, especially in existing applications like fertilizer production and refining¹.

2. Blue Hydrogen:

   • Low-Carbon Variant: Blue hydrogen is produced from natural gas with carbon capture and storage (CCS). It reduces emissions compared to grey hydrogen.
   • Growing Demand: As CCS technology improves, blue hydrogen demand is projected to increase.
   • Industrial Applications: Sectors like ammonia production and refining may adopt blue hydrogen¹.

3. Green Hydrogen:

   • Renewable Production: Green hydrogen is produced via electrolysis using renewable electricity (e.g., wind or solar).
   • Rising Importance: Experts anticipate green hydrogen to play a crucial role in the future.
   • Challenges: Scaling up green hydrogen production and reducing costs are key challenges.
   • Emerging Applications: New sectors (e.g., steel, synthetic fuels, heavy transport) may drive green hydrogen demand¹.

4. Geologic Hydrogen:

   • Natural Deposits: Geologic hydrogen occurs naturally in subsurface deposits formed by reactions between rock and water.
   • Potential: While still in early stages, geologic hydrogen could be a future source of green energy².

5. Other Sources:

   • Biomass Hydrogen: Hydrogen from biomass (e.g., agricultural waste) could contribute.
   • Nuclear Hydrogen: Nuclear reactors could produce hydrogen via high-temperature electrolysis.
   • Solar and Wind: Direct electrolysis using excess solar and wind power may become more common³.

In summary, the transition toward clean hydrogen involves a shift from grey to blue and green hydrogen. The exact mix will depend on technological advancements, policy support, and market dynamics.

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You can't realistically expect me name articles I have read over the last 2 years and remember who wrote them.

 

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

 

You claimed it would take 25 years to develop pink hydrogen, and claimed to know what it would cost.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

 

You have not supported any of these claims. 

 

So no, I do not expect you to name articles you have read or remember who wrote them, but I do expect you to at least make some attempt at supporting the claims you make, but you provide nothing. 

 

To be clear, you think it reasonable to claim as fact that "most experts agree" based only on your interpretation of the articles you have read, correct? 

 

That explains a lot. 

[sirineou]

57 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Then somebody will have to subsidise it, I don't think that is going to happen.

Like BEV is not subsidised? 

 

57 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Most experts think electrolysing water is the way to go and 33% of the energy IS wasted producing Oxygen (2 of H₂ and 1 of O₂ produced from each molecule, this IS the science).

   First , all processes have a loss, mining minera or for BEV has a loss , or or distilling petroleum. in  water electrolysis electrolysis the oxygen byproduct also has commercial value.

    I just posted a quote and a link , where they plan to use excess heat at nuclear plants and little electric to produce hydrogen 

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity  "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

This is not the only process available. solar cells are very cheap. and they are working on other processes . Just as battery technology did not remain static, so will Hydrogen technology. We were vacationing in Greece last year, people with unproductive land are starting to line it up with solar cells and selling the electricity to the electric company, who is to say that when there is a demand for hydrogen they can not do the same .  

 

As I originally said, at this point BAV is the way to go, but as a stop gap option until the hydrogen production , transportation and overall infustracture is developed. I think 10-15 years ,  At this juncture I would also buy a BAV because IMO it makes better overall sense than ICE 

No reason why both BEV and FCEV can not  co-exist but I think scale of economies will eventually make BEV obsolete,

Keep in mind that both fuel Cell an "BEV are both BEV , Fuel cell is just another battery. But for the sake of argument we now use the Fuel cell and BEV nomenclature to differentiate between the two, but  it confuses some to think that if someone is for fuel cell is against evs , which could not be further from the truth.

  One also makes the mistake to compare  today's BEV stats, with Today's fuel cell stats.  Fuel Cell has not even started  and BEV is pretty much established. 

IMO the advantages of hydrogen fuel cell are so many that current BEV  could not possibly compete. But who is to say that tomorrow they don't come up  with a solid state battery that is easily  made from  common and abundant material that is light and charges in 5 min,, or even quantum zero point energy. (ZPE)

  By the way hydrogen does not need to be pressurized to be transported .

' Breakthrough research enables high-density hydrogen storage for future energy systems

Date:March 6, 2024"

"This innovative research centers around a nanoporous magnesium borohydride structure (Mg(BH₄)₂), showcasing the remarkable capability to store hydrogen at high densities even under normal atmospheric pressure. "

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240306150645.htm

 

 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Doubt that very much, as H been around for at least 27 years in USA, and here's the H infrastructure over those 27 years.   Most of the few there, are located in CA & NY.

Sorry but that does not even make sense, you are saying that there is a Hydrogen infustracture for 27 years and in the same breath that there is no hydrogen infustracture, and the few that exists "are located in CA & NY "

[Yellowtail]

Anyone that remembers the big diesel fuel price hike in Thailand some years ago should have an idea how quickly people will adapt when it saves them a lot of money. In six months, I would guess half of the over the road trucks had been converted to LP/CNG. 

[Gweiloman]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

PHEV is never going to be a huge seller in Thailand it is a niche product which is expensive,

cheapest PHEV at the moment is Haval H6 and MG at B1.4 million

And GWM are not happy selling at that price they want to put the price back to B1.7M

Depending on how often and how far you drive on electric mode, you may not save much fuel or emissions compared to a regular hybrid. PHEVs also have heavier batteries that add weight and reduce cargo space. The main drawback is twice the powertrains - twice the costs, complexity & confusion

If climate change is the main reason for BEV then a halfway house is HEV which reduces  emissions

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

You have overlooked the Price of PHEV in Thailand

PHEV is never going to be a huge seller in Thailand it is a niche product which is expensive,

cheapest PHEV at the moment is Haval H6 and MG at B1.4 million

Cheapest HEV price starts around B789K 

Petrol PHEV total  registrations for 2023 11,495

Diesel PHEV total  registrations for 2023 208

HEV total registrations for 2023 85,022

PHEVs are an interesting category. I don’t agree that they are a niche product, they can be the ideal vehicle for some.

 

Most PHEVs currently available in Thailand have an electric only range of about 60-80 km. This is sufficient for most daily work commutes. Using it for this purpose, you really only need to fuel up when doing longer distances. I bought a “real mans” PHEV, the Haval H6. A massive 34 kWh traction battery capable of doing 160-180 km and electric only speed of 140kmh. This means that most of my mileage is in EV mode, even long distance trips. I’ve done over 30,000 km and maybe filled up the petrol tank only about 10 times or so.

 

I believe that many people who buy a normal hybrid are actually just buying the vehicle they want and the hybrid part is just an added feature. They are not specifically looking to buy a hybrid unless it’s the Prius.

[KhunLA]

33 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Sorry but that does not even make sense, you are saying that there is a Hydrogen infustracture for 27 years and in the same breath that there is no hydrogen infustracture, and the few that exists "are located in CA & NY "

Simply saying they/H cars, been around for 27 yrs at least, as promoted as a replacement for EVs*** at the time, that there was a waiting list for, but discontinued.   Over those 27 yrs, nobody wanted, no sales, so no real infrastructure, I think, and why it didn't work then, and won't work no.

 

I consider H fuel just another expensive to produce, ship, store, ship, deliverable fuel same as fossil fuels, petrol/diesel.

 

Might and hopefully will replace diesel for long haul, heavy equipment, though natural as is already available for that.

 

Really can't see it being developed for personal vehicle use, although it will be pushed for just that, by the same profiteers that have controlled the transportation fuels/energy ... until now 

 

*** Recommended viewing;  "Who Killed the Electric Car"

Edited April 5 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

39 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

No those sponsored by Toyota!

 

Seriously though, most experts believe electrolysing water is the way to go.

 

We may well have Pink Nuclear Hydrogen, but not in my lifetime and i hope to be here 20-25 years.

 

Maybe @Lacessit will give us his opinion

IMO hydrogen - fuelled vehicles will have a place in car production, for several reasons:

 

1/ Completely replacing ICE's with EV's is a pipe dream, there simply is not enough battery raw material.

 

2/ Very little adaptation of current production lines for ICE's is required, the only modification would be hardened valves to cope with the higher burn temperature of hydrogen. The industry already builds

CNG vehicles.

 

3/ The technology for conversion of hydrogen to ammonia for bulk shipping already exists.

 

4/ Nuclear hydrogen is prohibitively expensive compared to hydrogen generated from solar or wind energy.

 

5/ Blue hydrogen is polluting. CCS is a hoax perpetrated by the fossil fuel industry, billions have been wasted on plants which do not operate as designed.

 

The most advanced CCS facility in the world is Boundary Dam. I asked AI the following question:

 

"Does the Boundary Dam plant beat the Second Law of Thermodynamics?"

 

No, the Boundary Dam plant does not beat the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The Second Law states that in any closed system, the entropy (disorder) always increases over time. Capturing and storing CO2 creates order, so it seems to contradict the law. However, the Boundary Dam plant is not a closed system.

The plant requires a significant amount of energy to operate, which increases the overall entropy of the system (plant and surroundings) according to the Second Law. This additional entropy comes from the burning of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed to run the plant.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Technical question to our EV owners. How and how much are these new EVs connected to the Internet?

Do they have a sim card and always connected like a mobile phone or is it wifi only?

If using the home wifi, is it then always connected when within range or just connecting or just when charging or just when an software update requires connectivity?

[Pib]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Anyone that remembers the big diesel fuel price hike in Thailand some years ago should have an idea how quickly people will adapt when it saves them a lot of money. In six months, I would guess half of the over the road trucks had been converted to LP/CNG. 

Yeap, big trucks, taxis, and many people with private autos were tripping over themselves in trying to convert from petrol/diesel to LPG/CNG as fast as possible.  I had several in-laws who converted their petrol cars to LPG because at that time it would cut their fuel cost approx in half due to the spike in petrol/diesel prices.  

[Gweiloman]

3 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Technical question to our EV owners. How and how much are these new EVs connected to the Internet?

Do they have a sim card and always connected like a mobile phone or is it wifi only?

If using the home wifi, is it then always connected when within range or just connecting or just when charging or just when a software update requires connectivity?

Both my cars come with an onboard SIM card so I’m always connected to the internet.

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Technical question to our EV owners. How and how much are these new EVs connected to the Internet?

Do they have a sim card and always connected like a mobile phone or is it wifi only?

If using the home wifi, is it then always connected when within range or just connecting or just when charging or just when an software update requires connectivity?

BYD vehicle example:  it connects to the internet via mobile/SIM and/or Wifi....just like your smartphone.  It's always connected whether using SIM card or Wifi.....always connected where you have started/driving the car or not because when you turn off the EV it's really just going into standby mode where certain communications is still available.

 

And this type of connectivity is not really unique to EV....heck, ICEV can have the same capability.

 

Edited April 5 by Pib

[Gweiloman]

44 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Like BEV is not subsidised? 

 

   First , all processes have a loss, mining minera or for BEV has a loss , or or distilling petroleum. in  water electrolysis electrolysis the oxygen byproduct also has commercial value.

    I just posted a quote and a link , where they plan to use excess heat at nuclear plants and little electric to produce hydrogen 

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity  "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

This is not the only process available. solar cells are very cheap. and they are working on other processes . Just as battery technology did not remain static, so will Hydrogen technology. We were vacationing in Greece last year, people with unproductive land are starting to line it up with solar cells and selling the electricity to the electric company, who is to say that when there is a demand for hydrogen they can not do the same .  

 

As I originally said, at this point BAV is the way to go, but as a stop gap option until the hydrogen production , transportation and overall infustracture is developed. I think 10-15 years ,  At this juncture I would also buy a BAV because IMO it makes better overall sense than ICE 

No reason why both BEV and FCEV can not  co-exist but I think scale of economies will eventually make BEV obsolete,

Keep in mind that both fuel Cell an "BEV are both BEV , Fuel cell is just another battery. But for the sake of argument we now use the Fuel cell and BEV nomenclature to differentiate between the two, but  it confuses some to think that if someone is for fuel cell is against evs , which could not be further from the truth.

  One also makes the mistake to compare  today's BEV stats, with Today's fuel cell stats.  Fuel Cell has not even started  and BEV is pretty much established. 

IMO the advantages of hydrogen fuel cell are so many that current BEV  could not possibly compete. But who is to say that tomorrow they don't come up  with a solid state battery that is easily  made from  common and abundant material that is light and charges in 5 min,, or even quantum zero point energy. (ZPE)

  By the way hydrogen does not need to be pressurized to be transported .

' Breakthrough research enables high-density hydrogen storage for future energy systems

Date:March 6, 2024"

"This innovative research centers around a nanoporous magnesium borohydride structure (Mg(BH₄)₂), showcasing the remarkable capability to store hydrogen at high densities even under normal atmospheric pressure. "

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240306150645.htm

 

 

It doesn’t make sense to me to use the electricity generated by wind and/or solar power to then produce hydrogen that would then have to be worked on (compressed, freezes etc) and then transported over land to thousands of filling stations to be pumped into cars when the electricity produced can just be transmitted over power lines to your home to charge your EV. 
 

Talk about inefficiency.

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

But once there is a hydrogen infustracture, as there will be soon, every major country is investing heavily in it

If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion you can’t just spout BS you need to post evidence to support your arguments

 

H2 is a deception promoted by the fossil fuel industry and I can’t believe people are still falling for it.

 

Thailand doesn’t have a single commercial H2 filling station or a H2 car you can buy.

 

As for the rest of the world- tried it didn’t like it.

 

“First Shell, now Motive, hydrogen fuel station closures continue in the UK
The number of hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK has dwindled from 15 in 2021 to just 5 now”

https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-shell-now-motive-hydrogen-fuel-station-closures-continue-in-the-uk/

[ExpatOilWorker]

22 minutes ago, Pib said:

BYD vehicle example:  it connects to the internet via mobile/SIM and/or Wifi....just like your smartphone.  It's always connected whether using SIM card or Wifi.....always connected where you have started/driving the car or not because when you turn off the EV it's really just going into standby mode where certain communications is still available.

 

And this type of connectivity is not really unique to EV....heck, ICEV can have the same capability.

 

@Pib, @Gweiloman

Do you then have to have a separate mobile package for the car's sim card and can you freely choose the service provider?

What is the monthly data usage?

Will the car work if you decide to remove the sim card and go "dark"?

Edited April 5 by ExpatOilWorker

[Bandersnatch]

HEV v PHEVs

 

It’s quite difficult to get information about the battery size in HEVs because they don’t want you know.

 

Usually it’s only about 1kWh by comparison my EV has 85kWh gross.

 

So you are driving an ICE car with a such a tiny battery that it’s going to have  very little impact on economy they are in no way a “halfway house” to a full EV

 

Battery life is described in terms of cycle life, how many times it can be completed charged and discharged. For my EV that is probably once a week, for a hybrid it can be several times in a single short journey.

 

HEVs do not use batteries designed for long life like the LFP chemistry in my EV….

 

“Toyota has no immediate plans to drop its decades-long history of using NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) batteries, a stark contrast to other automakers solely offering electrified vehicles with lithium-ion batteries. “NiMH is reserved solely for our hybrid-electric vehicle applications,”

 

https://www.mobilityengineeringtech.com/component/content/article/49256-sae-ma-07246

 

Edited April 5 by Bandersnatch

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion you can’t just spout BS you need to post evidence to support your arguments

 

H2 is a deception promoted by the fossil fuel industry and I can’t believe people are still falling for it.

 

Thailand doesn’t have a single commercial H2 filling station or a H2 car you can buy.

 

As for the rest of the world- tried it didn’t like it.

 

“First Shell, now Motive, hydrogen fuel station closures continue in the UK
The number of hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK has dwindled from 15 in 2021 to just 5 now”

https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-shell-now-motive-hydrogen-fuel-station-closures-continue-in-the-uk/

 

Clearly that is not the case, because JBChiangRai has posted any number of false claims has refused to even try to support them. 

[JBChiangRai]

57 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

 

You claimed it would take 25 years to develop pink hydrogen, and claimed to know what it would cost.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

 

You have not supported any of these claims. 

 

So no, I do not expect you to name articles you have read or remember who wrote them, but I do expect you to at least make some attempt at supporting the claims you make, but you provide nothing. 

 

To be clear, you think it reasonable to claim as fact that "most experts agree" based only on your interpretation of the articles you have read, correct? 

 

That explains a lot. 

 

I never said I knew what pink hydrogen would cost, I said it costs approaching 2/3 of green hydrogen using the levelised cost of hydrogen model.

 

Planning and building nuclear reactors and testing and industrialising the process of building reactors to produce pink hydrogen will in my opinion will take 25 years.

 

I gave an AI opinion, it did the analysis and the sources it used were Global Energy Perspective 2023: Hydrogen outlook | McKinsey

and Understanding Future Prospects for Hydrogen, Energy Storage, and Renewables (powermag.com) amongst others, I'll list them here since you're apparently incapable of performing the same search.

 

51 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Like BEV is not subsidised? 

 

   First , all processes have a loss, mining minera or for BEV has a loss , or or distilling petroleum. in  water electrolysis electrolysis the oxygen byproduct also has commercial value.

    I just posted a quote and a link , where they plan to use excess heat at nuclear plants and little electric to produce hydrogen 

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity  "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

This is not the only process available. solar cells are very cheap. and they are working on other processes . Just as battery technology did not remain static, so will Hydrogen technology. We were vacationing in Greece last year, people with unproductive land are starting to line it up with solar cells and selling the electricity to the electric company, who is to say that when there is a demand for hydrogen they can not do the same .  

 

As I originally said, at this point BAV is the way to go, but as a stop gap option until the hydrogen production , transportation and overall infustracture is developed. I think 10-15 years ,  At this juncture I would also buy a BAV because IMO it makes better overall sense than ICE 

No reason why both BEV and FCEV can not  co-exist but I think scale of economies will eventually make BEV obsolete,

Keep in mind that both fuel Cell an "BEV are both BEV , Fuel cell is just another battery. But for the sake of argument we now use the Fuel cell and BEV nomenclature to differentiate between the two, but  it confuses some to think that if someone is for fuel cell is against evs , which could not be further from the truth.

  One also makes the mistake to compare  today's BEV stats, with Today's fuel cell stats.  Fuel Cell has not even started  and BEV is pretty much established. 

IMO the advantages of hydrogen fuel cell are so many that current BEV  could not possibly compete. But who is to say that tomorrow they don't come up  with a solid state battery that is easily  made from  common and abundant material that is light and charges in 5 min,, or even quantum zero point energy. (ZPE)

  By the way hydrogen does not need to be pressurized to be transported .

' Breakthrough research enables high-density hydrogen storage for future energy systems

Date:March 6, 2024"

"This innovative research centers around a nanoporous magnesium borohydride structure (Mg(BH₄)₂), showcasing the remarkable capability to store hydrogen at high densities even under normal atmospheric pressure. "

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/03/240306150645.htm

 

 

 

Firstly, this topic is electric vehicles in Thailand where there are no nuclear reactors, many countries have no nuclear reactors.  But more importantly, nuclear is years off, Lithium type batteries will dominate the market long before Hudrogen gets there.  Norway had a trial of Hydrogen cars, it failed, there was even a Toyota Mirai left abandoned at one of the hydrogen stations.

 

There are 2 barriers for Hydrogen cars, the first is cost of Hydrogen, currently it is too expensive, you start with electricity and end up with electricity, will all kinds of losses in-between.  Nuclear could change that, but we're still at the laboratory change and few countries can do it.  Nuclear plants are very expensive and building a plant to produce hydrogen is just too expensive.

 

Secondly storage.  Currently the only viable alternative is to compress it and the Toyota Mirai proves that is impractical.  There are experiments going on like you mention, but that's all they are, experiments.  No statement has been made about it's practicalities or the efficiency losses in storing & recovering it from the medium.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO hydrogen - fuelled vehicles will have a place in car production, for several reasons:

 

1/ Completely replacing ICE's with EV's is a pipe dream, there simply is not enough battery raw material.

 

2/ Very little adaptation of current production lines for ICE's is required, the only modification would be hardened valves to cope with the higher burn temperature of hydrogen. The industry already builds

CNG vehicles.

 

3/ The technology for conversion of hydrogen to ammonia for bulk shipping already exists.

 

4/ Nuclear hydrogen is prohibitively expensive compared to hydrogen generated from solar or wind energy.

 

5/ Blue hydrogen is polluting. CCS is a hoax perpetrated by the fossil fuel industry, billions have been wasted on plants which do not operate as designed.

 

The most advanced CCS facility in the world is Boundary Dam. I asked AI the following question:

 

"Does the Boundary Dam plant beat the Second Law of Thermodynamics?"

 

No, the Boundary Dam plant does not beat the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The Second Law states that in any closed system, the entropy (disorder) always increases over time. Capturing and storing CO2 creates order, so it seems to contradict the law. However, the Boundary Dam plant is not a closed system.

The plant requires a significant amount of energy to operate, which increases the overall entropy of the system (plant and surroundings) according to the Second Law. This additional entropy comes from the burning of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed to run the plant.

 

I also feel there is a place for Hydrogen vehicles, but in my lifetime they will be fueled by expensive green hydrogen.  if the cars cost more to run than a BEV then they will have to be cheaper.  If there is a shortage of materials for BEV's then BEV's will be more expensive making H2 cars cheaper. I don't believe there is a shortage of Lithium, but I do believe there are bottlenecks in scaling it up to replace ICE cars.

 

I agree with you that Nuclear (Pink) Hydrogen is prohibitively expensive, it's a pink red herring.

 

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It doesn’t make sense to me to use the electricity generated by wind and/or solar power to then produce hydrogen that would then have to be worked on (compressed, freezes etc) and then transported over land to thousands of filling stations to be pumped into cars when the electricity produced can just be transmitted over power lines to your home to charge your EV. 
 

Talk about inefficiency.

 

And that is the rub.  Hydrogen cars are inefficient.  That's fine if you can magic up free or dirt cheap Hydrogen, but it's not happening anytime soon.