Palestinian report says Israel deliberately killed Al Jazeera's Shireen Abu Aqla

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You're still trying to misrepresent what I said which was that criticizing Israel's actions is NOT demonizing Israel. Some would have all criticism of Israel as off limits.

No one is suggesting criticism of that Israel should be off limits .

Its when people single out Israel for criticism , but ignore all other Countries doing like wise .

  Like criticism Israel's blockade of Gaza whist completely ignoring the fact that Egypt is doing exactly the same .

   Or when Australians say that Israelis are living on other peoples land , and they need to be reminded that they are doing that and  Jews have been living in Israel for 3000 years and Caucasians living in Australia for 300 years 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No one is suggesting criticism of that Israel should be off limits .

Its when people single out Israel for criticism , but ignore all other Countries doing like wise .

  Like criticism Israel's blockade of Gaza whist completely ignoring the fact that Egypt is doing exactly the same .

   Or when Australians say that Israelis are living on other peoples land , and they need to be reminded that they are doing that and  Jews have been living in Israel for 3000 years and Caucasians living in Australia for 300 years 

It is as legitimate to criticize Israel without mentioning other countries as it is to criticize any country.

 

Since we're on the topic, Israel is as guilty of crimes against humanity as Russia is in the Ukraine.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56687437

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It is as legitimate to criticize Israel without mentioning other countries as it is to criticize any country.

 

Since we're on the topic, Israel is as guilty of crimes against humanity as Russia is in the Ukraine.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56687437

You link doesn't show there was any "crimes against humanity" .

Isreal isn't co-operating with the enquiry because Isreal is  not a member of the group conducting the inquiry and therefore the group has no jurisdiction . Any reason why you aren't mentioning the on going atrocities in Yemen by Israels neighbors , or would that be "whataboutery" ?

[ozimoron]

13 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You link doesn't show there was any "crimes against humanity" .

Isreal isn't co-operating with the enquiry because Isreal is  not a member of the group conducting the inquiry and therefore the group has no jurisdiction . Any reason why you aren't mentioning the on going atrocities in Yemen by Israels neighbors , or would that be "whataboutery" ?

Why would the ICC want to investigate them. The only reason they don't recognize the ICC is because they are afraid to face an investigation and submit to the court. Do you support Russia's identical position as well?

 

The case is expected to focus on three main areas: the Israel-Gaza war of 2014; violence along the Israel-Gaza border in 2018 amid Palestinian demonstrations backing the declared right of Palestinian refugees to return to ancestral homes in what is now Israel; and Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, considered illegal under international law - a point disputed by Israel.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56687437

 

The international human rights organization issued its conclusions after investigating three Israeli airstrikes that it said killed 62 Palestinian civilians. It said “there were no evident military targets in the vicinity” of the attacks.

The report also accused Palestinian militants of apparent war crimes by launching over 4,000 unguided rockets and mortars at Israeli population centers.

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-crime-war-crimes-human-rights-watch-4dbb4e7b915346ce6aca778f12a4359b

Edited May 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

11 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Why would the ICC want to investigate them. The only reason they don't recognize the ICC is because they are afraid to face an investigation and submit to the court. Do you support Russia's identical position as well?

No, the ICC set the date from when the enquiry will begin from and that date is AFTER the Palestinian attack which was the cause of the fighting .

   Hamas murdered three Israeli teenagers , but the start date was after that event , meaning the Hamas killings wouldn't be investigated .

   BTW, the USA and Thailand are also not members on the ICC , why are the USA and Thailand also not members of the ICC ? 

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, the ICC set the date from when the enquiry will begin from and that date is AFTER the Palestinian attack which was the cause of the fighting .

   Hamas murdered three Israeli teenagers , but the start date was after that event , meaning the Hamas killings wouldn't be investigated .

   BTW, the USA and Thailand are also not members on the ICC , why are the USA and Thailand also not members of the ICC ? 

same guilty conscience. In Thailand's case, I'm not aware that the ICC wants to investigate war crimes which makes your comment a deflection and whataboutery.

 

The dates are irrelevant. The ICC wants to investigate possible war crimes. You're clutching at straws.

 

You would have it that a single Palestinian attack justifies everything Israel has done since.

Edited May 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

same guilty conscience. In Thailand's case, I'm not aware that the ICC wants to investigate war crimes which makes your comment a deflection and whataboutery.

 

The dates are irrelevant. The ICC wants to investigate possible war crimes. You're clutching at straws.

But it shows the ICC's biasness and one of the reasons why Israel will not cooperate .

   The ICC wants to ignore the murder of three Israeli teenagers and concentrate on the Palestinians who dies as a result of retaliation for the murders .

  Did the ICC investigate any possible war crimes by the USA in Iraq ?

You claim not to be anti-Semitic , but when I point out that you single Israel out for different treatment to other Countries , you claim "deflection" and "whataboutery"

  Its not deflection ot whataboutery , its giving examples of how you single out Israel for special treatment  .

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

But it shows the ICC's biasness and one of the reasons why Israel will not cooperate .

   The ICC wants to ignore the murder of three Israeli teenagers and concentrate on the Palestinians who dies as a result of retaliation for the murders .

  Did the ICC investigate any possible war crimes by the USA in Iraq ?

You claim not to be anti-Semitic , but when I point out that you single Israel out for different treatment to other Countries , you claim "deflection" and "whataboutery"

  Its not deflection ot whataboutery , its giving examples of how you single out Israel for special treatment  .

The murder of three Israeli teachers is a crime, not a war crime. The police should deal with that. Look up war crimes. Isreal is not being singled out for special treatment, they have a case to answer and they should answer it.

 

Do you also consider that the ICC's investigation of Russia is illegitimate?

 

Your claims that the ICC, endorsed by every country which ratified the Rome Statute is biased against Israel is not defendable.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

The murder of three Israeli teachers is a crime, not a war crime. The police should deal with that. Look up war crimes. Isreal is not being singled out for special treatment, they have a case to answer and they should answer it.

 

Do you also consider that the ICC's investigation of Russia is illegitimate?

 

Your claims that the ICC, endorsed by every country which ratified the Rome Statute is biased against Israel is not defendable.

 

 

I haven't been following the ICC and Russia and therefore do not have an opinion .

   When will Australia be giving the the Aborigines their own Country ?

Jerusalem as Palestinians Capital City , Sydney as the Aboriginals Capital city ?

   How many Israelis are interested in the Aboriginal cause ?

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I haven't been following the ICC and Russia and therefore do not have an opinion .

   When will Australia be giving the the Aborigines their own Country ?

Jerusalem as Palestinians Capital City , Sydney as the Aboriginals Capital city ?

   How many Israelis are interested in the Aboriginal cause ?

Aborigines own large tracts of Australian land but you are deflecting. Where are the war crimes against Aborigines involving any living persons? The ICC is not investigating Australia.

 

But I'll get you up to date with ICC and Russia. The ICC is investigating Russia for possible war crimes but Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. So, do you oppose this investigation as well?

Edited May 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It's like you didn't even.read my post OR you're in denial that there actually is such a thing as Israel demonization that is antisemitic. 

 

Here is a way to tell legit criticism from the antisemitic variety:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism

 

The "three Ds" or the "3D test" of antisemitism is a set of criteria which was formulated by Israeli politician Natan Sharansky in order to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from antisemitism. The three Ds stand for delegitimization, demonization, and double standards, each of which, according to the test, indicates antisemitism.[1][2] The test is intended to draw the line between legitimate criticism of the State of Israel, its actions and policies, and non-legitimate criticism which becomes antisemitic.

You really feel comfortable citing that rightwing so-and-so?

From March 2003 – May 2005, he was Israel's Minister without Portfolio, responsible for Jerusalem's social and Jewish diaspora affairs. Under this position, Sharansky chaired a secret committee that approved the confiscation of East Jerusalem property of West Bank Palestinians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natan_Sharansky#Israeli_political_career

AS for his criteria of anti-semitsm, they're worthless. Plenty of countries are on the receiving end of the same kind of harsh, maybe even unfair criticisms. Just because Israel gets castigated similarly, that doesn't mean those comments are anti-Semitic.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

You're still trying to misrepresent what I said which was that criticizing Israel's actions is NOT demonizing Israel. Some would have all criticism of Israel as off limits.

I have never said that and you know it!

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I have never said that and you know it!

I said "some". not you, for that reason. I'm just pushing back on the point that you keep insisting that I'm demonizing Israel by criticizing its actions vis a vis the Palestinians.

[Mac Mickmanus]

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Aborigines own large tracts of Australian land but you are deflecting. Where are the war crimes against Aborigines involving any living persons? The ICC is not investigating Australia.

 

But I'll get you up to date with ICC and Russia. The ICC is investigating Russia for possible war crimes but Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. So, do you oppose this investigation as well?

I don't have an opinion about Russia and the ICC .

I am not one of these people that claim to know everything about everything and has an opinion about everything and knows everything .

   Palestinians also own large parts of land in "Israel" .

Should the ICC be investigating Australia for historical genocide against the Aborigine's ?

  Like, taking their Children  away from them en mass ?

The Aboriginal population decreased by 200 000 people in 200 years , laving just 60  000 left  , surely thats genocide ?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I said "some". not you, for that reason. I'm just pushing back on the point that you keep insisting that I'm demonizing Israel by criticizing its actions vis a vis the Palestinians.

Just stop.it!

I never accused you of that.

I don't know what kind of cynical game you're playing but I have been.very clear that criticism of Israeli policies per se is certainly not antisemitism.

Of course that includes Palestinian issues.

But sometimes it is.

If you haven't seen it then you live a very sheltered life.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Just stop.it!

I never accused you of that.

I don't know what kind of cynical game you're playing but I have been.very clear that criticism of Israeli policies per se is certainly not antisemitism.

Of course that includes Palestinian issues.

But sometimes it is.

If you haven't seen it then you live a very sheltered life.

You replied this to me when I never attempted to demonize Israel thus implying that I was.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by ozimoron

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I don't have an opinion about Russia and the ICC .

I am not one of these people that claim to know everything about everything and has an opinion about everything and knows everything .

   Palestinians also own large parts of land in "Israel" .

Should the ICC be investigating Australia for historical genocide against the Aborigine's ?

  Like, taking their Children  away from them en mass ?

The Aboriginal population decreased by 200 000 people in 200 years , laving just 60  000 left  , surely thats genocide ?

Australia had it's own judicial inquiry and found plenty of fault. There's no need to deflect on this. If the ICC want to investigate they will but they aren't. Try not to deflect off topic.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You replied this to me when I never attempted to demonize Israel thus implying that I was.

 

 

No!

I did no such thing.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Australia had it's own judicial inquiry and found plenty of fault. There's no need to deflect on this. If the ICC want to investigate they will but they aren't. Try not to deflect off topic.

So, you just want to focus Israel , without comparing Israel to other Countries , you just want to criticize and abuse Jews,  I mean Israel .

   Lets ignore everything else going in in the World  , never mind what other Countries are doing , lets just get those Israelis , in an un antiemetic  way, of course 

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No!

I did no such thing.

 why did you raise demonization of Israel in reply to my post?

[impulse]

7 hours ago, proton said:

Palestinian is a by word for self inflicted 'victim'. The Arabs could have had their own state offered by the Brits in the 30's, they said no as they were 'only' offered 80% of the area the Jews the other 20%. They said no again after WW2 when the UN offered a 50-% solution, instead 5 Arab armies attacked the new Israel. They have never been interested in a 2 state solution, only in one- their own with no Israel. 

That was sweet of the Brits to offer up 20% of someone else's land to accommodate the illegal immigrants they'd been allowing in as penance for the holocaust. 

 

You figure the Brits will acquiesce when the EU offers up 20% of the British Isles to accommodate today's dinghy divers?  Didn't think so...

 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So, you just want to focus Israel , without comparing Israel to other Countries , you just want to criticize and abuse Jews,  I mean Israel .

   Lets ignore everything else going in in the World  , never mind what other Countries are doing , lets just get those Israelis , in an un antiemetic  way, of course 

Well, by your criterion, whataboutery would be legitimately raised as an issue any time any country was criticized. 

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 why did you raise demonization of Israel in reply to my post?

It was in the context of a mutli post discussion that included the topic of some criticism of Israel being legit and some infected with antisemitism.

There was never an accusation that you were posting antisemitic criticisms.

This circular loop discussion is over! I will no longer feed this ridiculousness.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, by your criterion, whataboutery would be legitimately raised as an issue any time any country was criticized. 

I am talking about this specific issue . 

If some people claim to be fair and unbiased and without having an agenda against any specific Country, then one can give examples of where they are being biased by mentioning the behavior of other Countries .

   Why do some people always seem to want to criticize one Country and not any of the 200 odd other Countries 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I am talking about this specific issue . 

If some people claim to be fair and unbiased and without having an agenda against any specific Country, then one can give examples of where they are being biased by mentioning the behavior of other Countries .

   Why do some people always seem to want to criticize one Country and not any of the 200 odd other Countries 

Well, maybe you've been compiling a dossier on each poster and what other countries they criticize  or praise or do both. Care to share that data with us? Or are you just bloviating?

Anyway, this thread is about something that happened in Israel. 

[Scott]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

<snipped>

   Why do some people always seem to want to criticize one Country and not any of the 200 odd other Countries 

The topic is about Israel. 

 

Let's stay on topic and keep it civil.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You really feel comfortable citing that rightwing so-and-so?

From March 2003 – May 2005, he was Israel's Minister without Portfolio, responsible for Jerusalem's social and Jewish diaspora affairs. Under this position, Sharansky chaired a secret committee that approved the confiscation of East Jerusalem property of West Bank Palestinians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natan_Sharansky#Israeli_political_career

AS for his criteria of anti-semitsm, they're worthless. Plenty of countries are on the receiving end of the same kind of harsh, maybe even unfair criticisms. Just because Israel gets castigated similarly, that doesn't mean those comments are anti-Semitic.

I don't think he is right wing and I don't think his criteria are worthless either. He is very much for a Palestinian state. That is not right wing. Of course that housing thing was very wrong. You're wrong to not get the antisemitic aspect with some criticism of Israel. It is different. One might criticize the Brazilian government's treatment of indigenous. But people don't say Brazil doesn't deserve to exist or defend itself. But many people say stuff like that about Israel all the time.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jingthing

[Mac Mickmanus]

This report  suggests that it was Palestinians who shot her , mistaking her for Israeli army (as they fired from a distance)

 

 https://news.sky.com/story/shireen-abu-akleh-how-two-videos-represent-two-versions-of-a-journalists-death-12610635

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't think he is right wing and I don't think his criteria are worthless either. He is very much for a Palestinian state. That is not right wing. Of course that housing thing was very wrong. You're wrong to not get the antisemitic aspect with some criticism of Israel. It is different. One might criticize the Brazilian government's treatment of indigenous. But people don't say Brazil doesn't deserve to exist or defend itself. But many people say stuff like that about Israel all the time.

Exactly who even insinuated her ethat Israel shouldn't exist? The topic is about Israeli crimes against humanity, specifically the killing of a journalist it didn't like. Where is the anti-semitism there?

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

This report  suggests that it was Palestinians who shot her , mistaking her for Israeli army (as they fired from a distance)

 

 https://news.sky.com/story/shireen-abu-akleh-how-two-videos-represent-two-versions-of-a-journalists-death-12610635

The television network said on Thursday it would submit a case to the International Criminal Court (ICC).

 

The report said Abu Aqla was killed with a 5.56-millimetre armour piercing round fired from a Ruger Mini-14 rifle.

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/journalist-shireen-abu-aqla-was-killed-by-israeli-soldier-palestinian-investigation-says/9u0m2968v