Cabinet divisions break out over U.K. plan to override Brexit treaty

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Except in the UK, the MP that I vote for has powers along with other MP's to propose legislation, to introduce a bill.

 

In the EU, the right to inititate legislation is reserved for the EU Commission. So the people we vote for have very little power, and the people who really run the show, those with the real power are 'selected'. EU Parliamentarians are like a toothless tiger, which is just the way the commission likes it. Give the illusion of being democratic without actually affording those elected by the voters any real powers.

 

If you're happy to pretend that is real Democracy, great. I'm not and neither were the UK electorate which is The BRexit party had so many seats before we swiftly left.

EU laws are enacted by votes in the representative governments of each individual state.

 

 

[JonnyF]

18 minutes ago, candide said:

As usual you are distorting reality. The EC does not hold all powers. It has been explained to you many times but it doesn't fit the Brexiters narrative.

 

Anyway, you now have an "independent" government, mainly composed of Brexiters. So why don't you stop pointing fingers at others, and focus instead on the political accountability you allegedly voted for.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone. We are independent now, and we can hold our government to account if they do not enact article 16 as the protocol allows i.e. we can take take unilateral measures without breaking international law.

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, RayC said:

I think that it's you who needs to read and understand The Withdrawal Agreement. Enacting Article 16 does not abrogate the Agreement which remans subject to international law 

It allows us to take unilateral measures pertaining to the protocol. Hence, there should be no need to abrogate it, we can simply change parts of it within international law. 

[Bluespunk]

33 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I am not pointing fingers at anyone. We are independent now, and we can hold our government to account if they do not enact article 16 as the protocol allows i.e. we can take take unilateral measures without breaking international law.

"In a surprising admission, the UK government accepted that its new Northern Ireland protocol bill would mean it did not meet its obligations under international law."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/13/uk-risks-brexit-eu-trade-war-as-northern-ireland-protocol-bill-is-published

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47 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It allows us to take unilateral measures pertaining to the protocol. Hence, there should be no need to abrogate it, we can simply change parts of it within international law. 

You can't unilaterally change the terms of a a treaty and not abrogate it. A treaty is like a contract between 2 or more nations or pan-national entities. One party doesn't get to change the terms after its signed.

[candide]

47 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It allows us to take unilateral measures pertaining to the protocol. Hence, there should be no need to abrogate it, we can simply change parts of it within international law. 

Hmmm. Not sure at all about not breaking international law (see Bluespunk's post).

 

The U.K. government can make any decisions It wants. However, there will likely be consequences. And then it will start again, I.e. It's not UK's fault, the EU is not nice to us, etc...

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You can't unilaterally change the terms of a a treaty and not abrogate it. A treaty is like a contract between 2 or more nations or pan-national entities. One party doesn't get to change the terms after its signed.

Correct.

 

Vienna Convention, Article 27.

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11 minutes ago, candide said:

Hmmm. Not sure at all about not breaking international law (see Bluespunk's post).

 

The U.K. government can make any decisions It wants. However, there will likely be consequences. And then it will start again, I.e. It's not UK's fault, the EU is not nice to us, etc...

It's funny. I believe it was Johnson who claimed that the removal of the European Court of Justice as the arbitrator was a minor change. It turns out it will only affect a mere 10 out of 13 clauses.

[Excel]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Correct.

 

Vienna Convention, Article 27.

and it also states that that ( article 27 ) is without prejudice to article 46 of that convention. !!

[JonnyF]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You can't unilaterally change the terms of a a treaty and not abrogate it. A treaty is like a contract between 2 or more nations or pan-national entities. One party doesn't get to change the terms after its signed.

Article 16 of the protocol is a safeguard clause within the Northern Ireland Protocol that allows either party to take unilateral "strictly necessary" measures if applying the protocol "leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade".

[JonnyF]

57 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

"In a surprising admission, the UK government accepted that its new Northern Ireland protocol bill would mean it did not meet its obligations under international law."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/13/uk-risks-brexit-eu-trade-war-as-northern-ireland-protocol-bill-is-published

Who in the government said that? The article doesn't say as far as I can see.

 

The Northern Ireland Secretary doesn't agree.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-61774429

 

[JonnyF]

42 minutes ago, candide said:

The U.K. government can make any decisions It wants. However, there will likely be consequences. And then it will start again, I.e. It's not UK's fault, the EU is not nice to us, etc...

We will have to see if it is deemed that international law has been broken. I do not believe that it will be.

 

What is the EU going to do? They have enough problems trying to agree on Russia.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/854d129e-7eac-44a6-b097-449ffca9b586

 

 

Unity? What unity?

[candide]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We will have to see if it is deemed that international law has been broken. I do not believe that it will be.

 

What is the EU going to do? They have enough problems trying to agree on Russia.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/854d129e-7eac-44a6-b097-449ffca9b586

 

 

Unity? What unity?

Well, it seems there is at least one topic on which they are united!????

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Who in the government said that? The article doesn't say as far as I can see.

 

The Northern Ireland Secretary doesn't agree.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-61774429

 

Deny all you want...the article clearly state they have admitted they are breaking international law.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Excel said:

and it also states that that ( article 27 ) is without prejudice to article 46 of that convention. !!

Correct:

 

”

Article 46

Provisions of internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties

 

1.A State may not invoke the fact that its consent to be bound by a treaty has been expressed in violation of a provision of its internal law regarding competence to conclude treaties as invalidating its consent unless that violation was manifest and concerned a rule of its internal law of fundamental importance.

 

2.A violation is manifest if it would be objectively evident to any State conducting itself in the matter in accordance with normal practice and in good faith.”

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Can you give us an example of one of these ‘bigger and better deals’?

Shape and size not matter one iota in this context. Any UK deal is better than an old EU deal. Remainers mantra was that nobody would deal with the UK.

Sorry to burst you bubble but UK has been making deals since we were free to do so after Brexit. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Loiner said:

Shape and size not matter one iota in this context. Any UK deal is better than an old EU deal. Remainers mantra was that nobody would deal with the UK.

Sorry to burst you bubble but UK has been making deals since we were free to do so after Brexit. 

If you are going to claim ‘bigger and better’ then shape and size absolutely do matter.

 

 

[Loiner]

53 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Deny all you want...the article clearly state they have admitted they are breaking international law.

 

 

“they” are not HM Govt, so their Rejoiner admissions don’t matter, no matter how much you or the Grauniad would like them to. 

[Loiner]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you are going to claim ‘bigger and better’ then shape and size absolutely do matter.

 

 

They all are better. 

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

“they” are not HM Govt, so their Rejoiner admissions don’t matter, no matter how much you or the Grauniad would like them to. 

We'll see, we'll see... but I really doubt that johnson and co are going to be able to do this without suffering the consequences of their breaking of international law.

 

tick tick tick

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Deny all you want...the article clearly state they have admitted they are breaking international law.

 

 

It's a Guardian article ????.

 

Who said it?

 

Who are "They"?

 

You just accept this at face value ? ????

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

We'll see, we'll see... but I really doubt that johnson and co are going to be able to do this without suffering the consequences of their breaking of international law.

 

tick tick tick

Although the U.K Gov has claimed that its lawful 

 

https://mpa.co.uk/uk-denies-breaking-law-with-new-northern-ireland-plan/

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, candide said:

Well, it seems there is at least one topic on which they are united!????

Which only proves that their obsession with their precious single market supersedes their concerns with the war in Ukraine in which thousands of innocent women and children are being killed. Not to mention their fake concerns about peace on the island of Ireland.

 

Classic EU. Very telling that you find it so amusing as well. The true nature of hard leftist Europhiles is often easily exposed.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

We'll see, we'll see... but I really doubt that johnson and co are going to be able to do this without suffering the consequences of their breaking of international law.

 

tick tick tick

Maybe you can dig up another Guardian article where an "Unnamed Source" confirms that "They" are terrified of the mighty EU and the "Rumoured" consequences.

 

That would be case closed ????.

 

Don't link it though. The pop ups begging for donations to keep paying the hacks blind me.

[RayC]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Which only proves that their obsession with their precious single market supersedes their concerns with the war in Ukraine in which thousands of innocent women and children are being killed.

The single market and the war in Ukraine are two distinct matters.

 

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Not to mention their fake concerns about peace on the island of Ireland.

This UK government was so worried about ensuring peace on the island of Ireland that it completely ignored the well publicised concerns and objections of its' (former) ally and the easily foreseeable consequences of doing so.

 

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

The true nature of hard leftist Europhiles is often easily exposed.

Or alternatively the true nature of insular opportunists is made plain to see.

[Bluespunk]

38 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's a Guardian article ????.

 

Who said it?

 

Who are "They"?

 

You just accept this at face value ? ????

 

 

Absolutely. 
 

Tick tick tick

[Bluespunk]

35 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although the U.K Gov has claimed that its lawful 

 

https://mpa.co.uk/uk-denies-breaking-law-with-new-northern-ireland-plan/

They claim a lot of things…many emanating from johnson are not credible or even true on occasions. 

[Bluespunk]

19 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Maybe you can dig up another Guardian article where an "Unnamed Source" confirms that "They" are terrified of the mighty EU and the "Rumoured" consequences.

 

That would be case closed ????.

 

Don't link it though. The pop ups begging for donations to keep paying the hacks blind me.

Don’t need to…the article already linked to is enough for me. 
 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

They claim a lot of things…many emanating from johnson are not credible or even true on occasions. 

Are you saying that the U.K Government is wrong and that those actions will be unlawful ?

[Bluespunk]

14 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Are you saying that the U.K Government is wrong and that those actions will be unlawful ?

Not me, but a wide range of legal experts in international law. 
 

I’m just enjoying johnson’s hubris coming back to bite him.