Unusual Non-immigrant B Visa Problem

[bubba]

We are having a bit of a problem with some visa extensions for a renewed work permit. Here is the situation:

We recently filed for renewal of work permits for two expats. As is stated elsewhere here, expats must qualify for a work permit based on several options. In our case, we qualify under the 2M baht registered capital per work permit, and also under the provision for having paid at least 18k in tax during the last tax year. No problem there.

But the problem came at immigration. We are a small, high-tech company with only seven Thai and two expat employees. The immigration office examining our visa extension application said that all was in order, except we did not have an adequate number of Thai employees to justify two expats. We pointed out that we qualified under the work permit rules, and the officer understood that but explained that at immigration they have "basic guidance" that requires four Thai employees for every expat, and that we must demonstrate that for the last three months with the employee tax and social security records.

Personally, I have never heard of anyone having a problem like this with immigration, although I understand that Labour can be sticky about work permits. At this point, we are looking at the possibility of Immigration only issuing us one visa extension, thus meaning one expat would have to be sacked and sent home.

Anyone else here had a similar situation. and is there some sort of alternative?

[paulfr]

I have heard of the 1 to 4 rule many times.

Just hire someone's Thai wife as an employee,

find something for her to do or eat the overhead

until you can find a spot for another Thai.

I beleive the min salary for a Thai is about

4000 Baht/month. This is a small temporary

price to pay.

Don't know about making up for the last 3 months

though and how flexible Imm will be about this.

Also, you can pay the fired expat under the table

without much risk of getting caught. He/she can

work from home until all is clear.

[bubba]

Thanks Paul. I am not sure whether the 1 to 4 rule is actually a promulgated rule, but I guess that doesn't really matter. I have also heard 1 to 7. Anyway, I had always thought the Thai/expat ratio was a consideration of the Labour Department when deciding on work permits, not with immigration.

We found that the minimum qualifying wage is 5100 baht. No problem with that, but there is no way to change history and show the extra employee from three months back.

And no way we are going to pay under the table for an unpermitted expat. Complying with the letter of the law has always been our policy, and we have never had a problem. Particularly these days, once you wander from the straight and narrow, your problems really begin. The last thing I want to see is someone in immigration jail. Believe me, I know of cases in other companies where that has happened when a jealous competitor or disgruntled employee blew the whistle.

[sas_cars]

the rule 1foreigner/4 thais is for IMMIGRATION EXTENSION for I year only.It doesn't have anything to do with the labour department.The labour department doesn't require to produce 4thai for 1 workpermit.It is solely an immigration extension requirement.So what u have to do is to hire 1 more thai.and u have to send your second expat for a visa run.Once he gets a new NON B visa anywhere outside thailand,he can come back again and work for 3 months.as u have to update his workpermit according to his new NON B 90 days visa.labour department will not complain to extend his workpermit.Don't worry.

As 90 days go by,now u can apply for 1 year extension for this expat.as you new thai employee will also complete 3 months.Now u can show the records to the immigration.

I hope it helps u

[dr_Pat_Pong]

We are having a bit of a problem with some visa extensions for a renewed work permit. Here is the situation:

We recently filed for renewal of work permits for two expats. As is stated elsewhere here, expats must qualify for a work permit based on several options. In our case, we qualify under the 2M baht registered capital per work permit, and also under the provision for having paid at least 18k in tax during the last tax year. No problem there.

But the problem came at immigration. We are a small, high-tech company with only seven Thai and two expat employees. The immigration office examining our visa extension application said that all was in order, except we did not have an adequate number of Thai employees to justify two expats. We pointed out that we qualified under the work permit rules, and the officer understood that but explained that at immigration they have "basic guidance" that requires four Thai employees for every expat, and that we must demonstrate that for the last three months with the employee tax and social security records.

Personally, I have never heard of anyone having a problem like this with immigration, although I understand that Labour can be sticky about work permits. At this point, we are looking at the possibility of Immigration only issuing us one visa extension, thus meaning one expat would have to be sacked and sent home.

Anyone else here had a similar situation. and is there some sort of alternative?

Bubba. Talk to Sunbelt Asia or Indo Siam ( links on the Thaivisa opening page ) They well know every wrinkle in the process. Good luck.

[huski]

And no way we are going to pay under the table for an unpermitted expat. Complying with the letter of the law has always been our policy, and we have never had a problem. Particularly these days, once you wander from the straight and narrow, your problems really begin. The last thing I want to see is someone in immigration jail. Believe me, I know of cases in other companies where that has happened when a jealous competitor or disgruntled employee blew the whistle.

smart, don't listen to the squirrels that suggested otherwise in this thread...doctor pat pong provided the two sources that can help you go the legal route

indo siam

sunbelt asia

[Indo-Siam]

Prior to about May 2003, Work Permit office DID care about number of Thai employees - my work permit (issued in 2002) has a stamp which states that I must have 4 Thai employees. Work permits from earlier times had the "7" Thai employee requirement.

All this ended last year. Work Pernit office no longer asks anything about othere,mployees, or about paid-in capital. You can get a work permit by having any ONE of the following

1) Company with 2,000,000 baht registered capital

2) Thai wife, with Thai marriage registration document

3) Proof that you paid at ;least 18,000 baht personal income tax in previous year

Extending a non-immigrant visa on the basis of employment does require 4 Thai employees and 2,000,000 baht paid-in capital per foreigner sponsored for a long-term entry permit. This has been the requirement for at least the past couple of years.

Immigration handles entry permit extensions, and Labor Ministry handles work permits, and all either care about the other is that you have a permit from the other. Their requirements are otherwise NOT coordinated, and are not the same.

If you just need one more Thai employee, I would certainly arrange for one highly-paid employee to have some other Thai (wife, girlfriend, Thai landlord, etc) receive 6,000 baht of his salary every month, and go onto the company payroll as a "cultural consultant' or "translator". There is nothing illegal about this. My Thai wife is on my company payroll, and was the only employee that the Immigration field inspector did NOT insist that I "muster" for his inspection - they simply give you that employee (I told him my wifes job was to coordinate tamboon - Buddhist merit-making - ceremonies for the compnay, when needed).

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Sunbelt Asia]

If you have 7 Thais and 2 work permits. Without getting another Thai employee...

Both foreigners have to get a multi entry one year visa. They can obtain this from a Thai Consulate outside Thailand by being sponsored by the company and showing their work permit. Your company does NOT need 4 Thais per work permit, paying the foreigners the required salary( example 60,000 per month for Americans) or 2 million registered capital with one million of that being working capital, for them to get this type of Visa.

The only legal requirement is for them to leave Thailand and do a visa run every 90 days.

Please note: Both foreigners have to do the visa run NOT just one. As the requirement is 4 Thais per work permit, the foreigner doing the visa run would count against this number for the applying on the extension of visa.

You have three choices with one long term solution as well

1. Hire another Thai ( ONLY if you can pay the required salaries required for the one year visa and have 2 million Baht registered capital with 1 million being working capital)

2. Both foreigners get a multi entry visa for one year. (This is totally legal. After they do the visa run every 90 days, they get to extend their work permit, til that visa expires in 90 days )

3. Let one foreigner go.

Long term: you may want to think about getting BOI approval as a small high tech company so you can have unlimited work permits.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The above two offerings are obviously from consultants who know their job. Thanks fellows.

[sas_cars]

Hello,Is it possible to employ a thai in your company for 4thai/foreigner purpose, who is already employed in another company without leaving the job there?i.e. simulatenously doing both jobs?

[Axel]

Hello,Is it possible to employ a thai in your company for 4thai/foreigner purpose, who is already employed in another company without leaving the job there?i.e. simulatenously doing both jobs?

I see no problem there, as long as you do pay the minimum salary (In BKK at the moment Baht 165/day as do the social payments.

A small hint, in the past I did hire a messenger for Baht 2500 p.m. cash. (Needed at that time 7 Thais)

Immigration did accept this as the 'staff' was on the staff-list. Only after 2 years got a query by immigration, who claimed it is not allowed. After shown him it is

a) a long time employee and

part-time employee

was accepted.

I am not sure if this is within the rules, but then, smile, friendly and it works as always.

[sas_cars]

IC axel,but what about his social insurance payment?as he's already paying it at another company ! 2 places 2 times social insurance?

[Axel]

Yes, sas cars, I think so. Let me come back on Monday, I will double check.

[Dutchy2]

If you have 7 Thais and 2 work permits. Without getting another Thai employee...

The only legal requirement is for them to leave Thailand and do a visa run every 90 days.

Please note: Both foreigners have to do the visa run NOT just one.

This is interesting; as thanks for providing employment to seven Thais Thailand would be sending their two farang bosses on 90 day visa runs out of the country.

[sas_cars]

thanks axel.if you can confirm about the 2 places 2 times social insurance payment.i will wait

[bubba]

Many thanks for the helpful replies here. I really appreciate your taking the time to help out with some advice.

The difficult twist here is the immgration officer's requirement that we show eight Thai employees for the last three months. In fact, we do now have eight legitimate Thai employees now, and they show on last month's tax and social security records, so we are wondering whether this alone will satisfy them.

And yes, with regard to the previous poster, it does not seem to make a lot of sense to have the two expat managers leave every 90 days for a visa runs, thus spending company money outside of Thailand, and money that could be better used for pay rises, investment, hiring additional Thai employees, or paying taxable profit dividends to the Thai partners. I won't even begin to attempt sorting out that logic.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Many thanks for the helpful replies here. I really appreciate your taking the time to help out with some advice.

The difficult twist here is the immgration officer's requirement that we show eight Thai employees for the last three months. In fact, we do now have eight legitimate Thai employees now, and they show on last month's tax and social security records, so we are wondering whether this alone will satisfy them.

And yes, with regard to the previous poster, it does not seem to make a lot of sense to have the two expat managers leave every 90 days for a visa runs, thus spending company money outside of Thailand, and money that could be better used for pay rises, investment, hiring additional Thai employees, or paying taxable profit dividends to the Thai partners. I won't even begin to attempt sorting out that logic.

You must never, ever, apply any logic to the bureaucratic ways and means here.

[Sunbelt Asia]

The difficult twist here is the immgration officer's requirement that we show eight Thai employees for the last three months. In fact, we do now have eight legitimate Thai employees now, and they show on last month's tax and social security records, so we are wondering whether this alone will satisfy them.

The officers we work with, its not a problem. I can't see them being rejected now UNLESS you're not meeting the following conditions: paying the two foreigners at least the minimum required salary for their nationality, 2 million registered capital and 1 million working capital or paying the Thais at least the minimum required salary for that region.

And yes, with regard to the previous poster, it does not seem to make a lot of sense to have the two expat managers leave every 90 days for a visa runs, thus spending company money outside of Thailand, and money that could be better used for pay rises, investment, hiring additional Thai employees, or paying taxable profit dividends to the Thai partners. I won't even begin to attempt sorting out that logic

Many people are VERY much grateful that this avenue is open. They are or they employ, foreigners that want to pay tax and have a work permit. Their company perhaps is a start up and does not need 4 Thais right now or can't afford the salary of 60,000 Baht per month to the foreigner and the taxes involved or does not have working capital of one million Baht. Instead of being iron clad you must meet these conditions if you want the foreigner to live and work here.

They leave the door open. For some the cost savings towards the company is tremendous...perhaps 100,000 every three months versus a 5,000 border trip. Some companies that hire foreigners required this to be the employee’s expense. If they want to work at that company, they must pay their own expense to do a visa run. I know of a gentleman that does a visa run to Singapore, does not leave the terminal. Flies there and flies back with the same airline crew.

The legal options are there for people to choose from. I firmly believe Thailand is great cause of these legal choices. I hope that never changes.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Axel]

IC axel,but what about his social insurance payment?as he's already paying it at another company ! 2 places 2 times social insurance?

OK, sas_cars, double checked. We do pay the social sec. based on actual income.

Keep him on the list as part-time and seems the government does accept part-timers.

If he got another job somewhere, would have to pay from there as well.