LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[JohnnyBD]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

When applying for the LTR visa one has to upload documents. It's easy to create a one page explanation ( or cover) letter to any PDF upload. I did that toward the end of my LTR application ( after different BoI requests ),  and possibly I should have included such PDF upload explanations sooner.

Thanks a bunch for that piece of information... I will do that.

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I previously reported that I did not submit my 1040 tax return, since it was joint. However, I just looked at my submission file, and I had submitted my 1040.

 

But I did submit my applicable joint 1040, along with a cover letter explaining joint returns, 1099's, and why they accompanied the package (actually, I think somewhere in all the guidance I had seen where they wanted 1099's, along with the tax return). I did ask about whether or not they wanted the past two years' tax returns (again, there had been some mention of two years' worth, but maybe that was not for WP applications) -- but they said only last year's return.

 

So, as long as you accompany your joint tax return with your 1099's -- you should be just fine.

Hi Jim,

Should I also upload all of my 1099s for dividends & interest too, that show up on my tax return, or I just need to upload my SSA-1099 & Company Pension 1009-R which is over the $80k threshold?

Sorry to bug you again...

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I will try to include notes if there is a note section to explain.

Just write on a blank piece of paper, which later doubles as the cover letter.

[JohnnyBD]

13 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Just write on a blank piece of paper, which later doubles as the cover letter.

Thanks. I will do that and use it as a cover letter.

[stat]

4 hours ago, ballpoint said:

 

As I said in (one of the many) the tax thread(s), I have the same issue.  My fund managers send me an annual statement showing the earnings of each fund for that year (from dividends etc), which I get reinvested, but these rarely surpass USD80k.  The true earnings are the combined gain in unit prices, which almost always do exceed that amount.  But, until they are actually sold there is no proof of this gain, other than me showing the total value of the funds from year to year - which would be complicated due to the number of them.  In any event, this wouldn't be classed as a capital gain, unless I actually sell USD80k worth of them.  I suspect that even if I did so, they'd want to know that the amount was sustainable annual income, which would lead me back to the problem of showing the annual total increase in value of my holdings.  I can easily see that, by trying to follow the Wealthy Pensioner proof of income method, my loss of investment from annually selling more funds than I need to, or remitting USD250k of my capital to Thailand, would end up greater than any taxes I'd be paying here.  Maybe one day, when I'm not so interested in growing my holdings and am more interested in keeping things simple no matter the (affordable) cost, I'll jump through their hoops, but as I'm still under 60, that will be more than a few years from now.

 

In the back of my mind, there's also the nagging suspicion that one day this, or a future, government will change the tax laws making LTR holders liable for tax, and taxing all overseas income, in line with other countries.  Having provided documents proving that one earns at least USD80k per year, it would be very hard to wriggle out of paying taxes on that.  No doubt this paragraph will be jumped on by LTR holders, and there's nothing what so ever to say that both those things will happen, and I strongly hope it never does, but it's not as if governments in general, and the Thai government in particular, haven't back tracked and broken promises before.  The Australian government is doing it right now with their proposed changes to what constitutes tax residency, and redefining non-taxable Australian property.  If I could easily get an LTR here, with no change in my current investment scheme, then I would, but if I'm going to be weighing up gains and losses through complying, then I'd rather stay under the radar until I reach a definite conclusion.

There is currently no indication whatsoever that TH will change to a ww income taxation let alone change a royal degree for LTR visa holders. It is not even clear that they will verify the implementation of the new directive regarding remitted monies. Anyway under CRS TRD is already receiving info on all ww income anyway (exemption being US accounts IMHO).

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

or I just need to upload my SSA-1099 & Company Pension 1009-R which is over the $80k threshold?

That should do it. But, no harm uploading other 1099s of passive income, allowable towards, or over, the 80k requirement.

[Pib]

6 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

To all,

I am ready to apply this week for a LTR-WP visa and I have been going back & forth on whether to submit a copy of my US tax return or not and see if they ask for it. The reason is, I filed a joint tax return and included my Thai wife on it, but she has no income. I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her. My US Social Security & company pension together is more than $80,000, so it shouldn't be an issue. Do you think it matters to BOI? Will I have a problem with her name on my return? I could just delete her name off the tax return since it's an editable pdf file. Also, I read where someone said they didn't submit a tax return and they were approved.

Thanks for your reply. 

 

Joint return is fine.  You will  have a 1099R's or other certificates/benefit letters from SSA and your company clearing showing what income is all yours.  You should submit income documentation such as your SSA and company 1099R's as the primary income documentation....the tax return is considered secondary income evidence in such a case.  Include a one page memo explaining your income if you think it's needed.  

 

When I applied/got my LTR Pensioner visa in late 2022, I used income docs such as 1099R, benefit letter, etc., from my U.S. govt pensions and included a memo summarizing my annual income partly because one of my income streams which is a 100% tax free/non tax reportable was a VA pension that does not provide any annual 1099R since by law is 100% non taxable and non reportable on a tax return....does not appear anywhere on a tax return. Additionally, SSA pension is only partially taxable. 

 

Now after submitting my LTR application with certificates/benefits letters as the primary income documentation showing my income was at least $80K BOI came back and asked for my last tax return as Additional Documentation.  So I submitted the tax return along with another memo once again summarizing my income to include pointing out again the VA pension is not on the tax return because it's 100% non reportable/non taxable by U.S. law.  My LTR Pensioner visa was approved although there is quite a bit difference in income reported by my primary income documentation in comparison to income on my tax return. 

 

BOI will not have an issue with a joint return....will not consider half of the income on the return as being your wife's....BOI will primarily rely on other income docs with your tax return basically being a secondary form of income documentation.  However, I would include the tax return in your initial submission just to avoid BOI coming back later and asking for the return as Additional Documentation....this will just slow down the approval of the visa.  Good luck...sounds like you are a shoe-in to get the visa. 

 

[bobasdl]

20 minutes ago, Pib said:

Now after submitting my LTR application with certificates/benefits letters as the primary income documentation showing my income was at least $80K BOI came back and asked for my last tax return as Additional Documentation.  So I submitted the tax return along with another memo once again summarizing my income to include pointing out again the VA pension is not on the tax return because it's 100% non reportable/non taxable by U.S. law.  My LTR Pensioner visa was approved although there is quite a bit difference in income reported by my primary income documentation in comparison to income on my tax return. 

 

 

I am in a similar situation, just in a different LTR category. I am currently waiting at the "Consideration by Government Agencies" step after submitting my tax report along with a brief explanation of why the non-taxable income wasn't included. Do you remember how long it took to receive confirmation after you sent your tax report? They were quite prompt initially when asking for additional documentation, but it has now been two weeks without a response.

 

Part of me thinks this might be a positive sign because if they were going to decline the application, they wouldn't need much time, would they?

 

 

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, bobasdl said:

 

I am in a similar situation, just in a different LTR category. I am currently waiting at the "Consideration by Government Agencies" step after submitting my tax report along with a brief explanation of why the non-taxable income wasn't included. Do you remember how long it took to receive confirmation after you sent your tax report? They were quite prompt initially when asking for additional documentation, but it has now been two weeks without a response.

 

Part of me thinks this might be a positive sign because if they were going to decline the application, they wouldn't need much time, would they?

 

 

For me back in late 2022 which was the initial kickoff months of the new LTR program I got approval a day or so after providing the additional docs (i.e., the tax return) if I remember right....to me it seemed to be at the very tail end of the entire approval process....like BOI was initially happy with my docs...sent it out for other govt agencies to approve....got approval from the other agencies...but then in the final step before endorsement (what BOI calls recommendation for final approval) they decided to ask for a copy of my tax return like maybe doing a final QA check and decided having a copy of the tax return would be a good thing.  

 

I too think since you have not heard back from BOI after submitting the tax return that the tax return made "BOI happy" and now they are just waiting for the other govt agencies involved to provide coordination.  As far as I know BOI is the only agency to determine if you meet "income requirements" and the other agencies are just to ensure you are not on any "bad boy/undesirable" list.   Good luck.

 

[K2938]

8 hours ago, ballpoint said:

As I said in (one of the many) the tax thread(s), I have the same issue.  My fund managers send me an annual statement showing the earnings of each fund for that year (from dividends etc), which I get reinvested, but these rarely surpass USD80k.  The true earnings are the combined gain in unit prices, which almost always do exceed that amount.  But, until they are actually sold there is no proof of this gain, other than me showing the total value of the funds from year to year - which would be complicated due to the number of them.  In any event, this wouldn't be classed as a capital gain, unless I actually sell USD80k worth of them.  I suspect that even if I did so, they'd want to know that the amount was sustainable annual income, which would lead me back to the problem of showing the annual total increase in value of my holdings.  I can easily see that, by trying to follow the Wealthy Pensioner proof of income method, my loss of investment from annually selling more funds than I need to, or remitting USD250k of my capital to Thailand, would end up greater than any taxes I'd be paying here.  Maybe one day, when I'm not so interested in growing my holdings and am more interested in keeping things simple no matter the (affordable) cost, I'll jump through their hoops, but as I'm still under 60, that will be more than a few years from now.

 

In the back of my mind, there's also the nagging suspicion that one day this, or a future, government will change the tax laws making LTR holders liable for tax, and taxing all overseas income, in line with other countries.  Having provided documents proving that one earns at least USD80k per year, it would be very hard to wriggle out of paying taxes on that.  No doubt this paragraph will be jumped on by LTR holders, and there's nothing what so ever to say that both those things will happen, and I strongly hope it never does, but it's not as if governments in general, and the Thai government in particular, haven't back tracked and broken promises before.  The Australian government is doing it right now with their proposed changes to what constitutes tax residency, and redefining non-taxable Australian property.  If I could easily get an LTR here, with no change in my current investment scheme, then I would, but if I'm going to be weighing up gains and losses through complying, then I'd rather stay under the radar until I reach a definite conclusion.

1) The problem with relying on capital gains is also that at least once every few years markets fall.  And so your gains might not really exist in a year of relevance.
2) The dividend yield on Western equities is generally in the area of 1.5%-2%, in the U.S. currently even lower.  So for 80k USD income without capital gains you would need an equity portfolio value of at least 4-6 MM USD.  Not sure if disclosing such big amounts necessarily increases your safety in Thailand.

3) Maybe think of the Thai Elite/Privilege visa instead if you feel uncomfortable with the disclosure requirements and have the money.

 

 

[JohnnyBD]

Thank you all for being very helpful. I've been stressing out over the past few months with this tax thing (I'm on marriage extension), then, after reading this thread, it gave me some hope that my life here could still be relatively stress-free and enjoyable. I received my new passport in the mail from the US Embassy, and had the visa stamps transferred today, so I will start the LTR process tomorrow. I am hoping for a smooth approval process. Thanks again for all the advice.

[sabaiguy]

13 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just a question. If you are married, did your tax return include your wife's name?

I am ready to apply this week for a LTR-WP visa and I have been going back & forth on whether to submit a copy of my US tax return or not and see if they ask for it. The reason is, I filed a joint tax return with my Thai wife on it, but she has no income. I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her. My US Social Security & company pension together is more than $80,000, so it shouldn't be an issue. Do you think it matters to BOI? Will I have a problem with her name on my return?

Thanks for your reply. 

No don't think it matters to them if you submit a joint return.  I did and got my LTRWP.  If that's all you got what are you supposed to do file new tax returns?

[sabaiguy]

10 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Hi Jim,

Should I also upload all of my 1099s for dividends & interest too, that show up on my tax return, or I just need to upload my SSA-1099 & Company Pension 1009-R which is over the $80k threshold?

Sorry to bug you again...

I would say yes upload any 1099's you have.  I originally gave them 2 years of 1040's and 2 years of 1099's (21 &22) they then came back and asked for my 2023 1040 (this was in March 24) no explanation why. Had to explain that we aren't required to file 2023 tax returns until April 2024.  Uploaded a 2023 1099R which they excepted no problem.

[Misty]

13 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Thank you all for being very helpful. I've been stressing out over the past few months with this tax thing (I'm on marriage extension), then, after reading this thread, it gave me some hope that my life here could still be relatively stress-free and enjoyable. I received my new passport in the mail from the US Embassy, and had the visa stamps transferred today, so I will start the LTR process tomorrow. I am hoping for a smooth approval process. Thanks again for all the advice.

 

Yes, definitely give LTR visa a try. It sounds like you're a good candidate. If you qualify you won't regret it.

 

It is really good not to be in the annual extension grind anymore - in my case it was an annual NonB/work permit renewal. That's a system that should be ended for all concerned.

[Misty]

On 11/26/2023 at 10:59 AM, Pib said:

Yes...the Chamchuri Sq Immigration Office stays pretty busy but based on my experience in Dec 2022 when initially getting my LTR visa and last month when getting a certificate of residence to buy a car when they know you have an LTR visa you get priority service....front of the queue type service.

 

Hi Pib, looks like I'll need a certificate of residence to buy a car. Did you need to make an appointment at Chamchuri Square for this, and was it with the LTR unit, or directly with Immigration?

 

I now see the only advantage to having an old style work permit (a paper booklet) was that the last page listed my residential address. Never had to get a certificate of residence before this.

[Pib]

59 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Hi Pib, looks like I'll need a certificate of residence to buy a car. Did you need to make an appointment at Chamchuri Square for this, and was it with the LTR unit, or directly with Immigration?

Misty,

  Direct to Immigration...no appointment....just walk-in....pay Bt500...talks approx an hour.  When I paid the fee they said come back in one hour for pickup....I came back in 50 minutes and the certificate was ready.  Done...out the door I go.

[stat]

20 hours ago, K2938 said:

1) The problem with relying on capital gains is also that at least once every few years markets fall.  And so your gains might not really exist in a year of relevance.
2) The dividend yield on Western equities is generally in the area of 1.5%-2%, in the U.S. currently even lower.  So for 80k USD income without capital gains you would need an equity portfolio value of at least 4-6 MM USD.  Not sure if disclosing such big amounts necessarily increases your safety in Thailand.

3) Maybe think of the Thai Elite/Privilege visa instead if you feel uncomfortable with the disclosure requirements and have the money.

 

 

Great post!

 

My 2 cents:

 

1: It is relatively easy to make capital gains happen i.e. you own a bunch of Meta or NVDA for 10 years, so you can choose when to sell and reap the capital gains. This is quite easy as I assume any person in his right mind would not reap cap gains while living in a high tax country and planing to live in TH (5 year mark).

2: I could not agree more that revealing large sums of capital is maybe not a good idea. I still remember when they "lost" all the data for the Phuket sandbox including passport numbers all bio info and maybe also the credit card info. The yield on us bonds is currently in the area of 4.5%.

 

However I think TH is not Mexico ( a country I hold dear) and the risk of being kidnapped is very low to my knowledge in TH. I also think being rich in TH starts at a very early point for us westerners and any LTR wealthy pensioner is considered wealthy 😉 I do not really like the LTR stamp (some LTR categories) in my passport that shows I am rich to every hotel employee.

 

[1tent42]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

Misty,

  Direct to Immigration...no appointment....just walk-in....pay Bt500...talks approx an hour.  When I paid the fee they said come back in one hour for pickup....I came back in 50 minutes and the certificate was ready.  Done...out the door I go.

If you have an LTR visa and have never filed a TM47, will immigration still require one when you apply for a certificate of residence?

[Pib]

30 minutes ago, 1tent42 said:

If you have an LTR visa and have never filed a TM47, will immigration still require one when you apply for a certificate of residence?

Yes...you'll probably need to show a TM30 receipt which is the  "Notification From For Housemaster, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence Where the Alien Has Stayed" form.    I say "probably" because I just attached a copy of my TM30 receipt when I applied for the Certificate of Residence.   

 

And about 5 years ago when I was still on a Non 0 type visa and when to get a residence certificate at CW I had to provide a copy of my TM30 receipt.

 

LTR visa does not use a TM47 as there is no 90 day address reporting requirement; instead, a TM95 one year address report is used.  I also attached my TM95 receipt since I haven't left Thailand for over a year. 

Edit....correction...I just remembered that I got the residence certificate before I had one year under my belt with the LTR visa and just included a copy of the address reporting slip they give a person when first getting the LTR visa issued.....I didn't file my first TM95 until a couple months later.

 

Sorry I can't be more specific because when I went to Chamchuri Sq Immigration to get the resident certificate I just had a copy of my TM30, TM95, and TM6 that I offered with the application form and they took them all....they didn't have to "ask" for any form.  

[1tent42]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Yes...you'll probably need to show a TM30 receipt which is the  "Notification From For Housemaster, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence Where the Alien Has Stayed" form.    I say "probably" because I just attached a copy of my TM30 receipt when I applied for the Certificate of Residence.   

 

And about 5 years ago when I was still on a Non 0 type visa and when to get a residence certificate at CW I had to provide a copy of my TM30 receipt.

 

LTR visa does not use a TM47 as there is no 90 day address reporting requirement; instead, a TM95 one year address report is used.  I also attached my TM95 receipt since I haven't left Thailand for over a year. 

Edit....correction...I just remembered that I got the residence certificate before I had one year under my belt with the LTR visa and just included a copy of the address reporting slip they give a person when first getting the LTR visa issued.....I didn't file my first TM95 until a couple months later.

 

Sorry I can't be more specific because when I went to Chamchuri Sq Immigration to get the resident certificate I just had a copy of my TM30, TM95, and TM6 that I offered with the application form and they took them all....they didn't have to "ask" for any form.  

Thanks for the reply.  I’ll guess I’ll find out what is required when I go to CW. 

[shdmn]

5 hours ago, stat said:

...

1: It is relatively easy to make capital gains happen i.e. you own a bunch of Meta or NVDA for 10 years, so you can choose when to sell and reap the capital gains. This is quite easy as I assume any person in his right mind would not reap cap gains while living in a high tax country and planing to live in TH (5 year mark).

2: I could not agree more that revealing large sums of capital is maybe not a good idea. I still remember when they "lost" all the data for the Phuket sandbox including passport numbers all bio info and maybe also the credit card info. The yield on us bonds is currently in the area of 4.5%.

 

However I think TH is not Mexico ( a country I hold dear) and the risk of being kidnapped is very low to my knowledge in TH. I also think being rich in TH starts at a very early point for us westerners and any LTR wealthy pensioner is considered wealthy 😉 I do not really like the LTR stamp (some LTR categories) in my passport that shows I am rich to every hotel employee.

 

That is not how it works.  At least not in Canada.  When I apply to become a non-resident for tax purposes, I have to pay taxes on realized AND unrealized capital gains.  For example, if I am still holding META or NVDA stock and the current market value is $1000 higher than my book value, I will have to pay capital gains tax on that $1000 difference even though I have not sold the stock and plan to continue holding it after becoming a non-resident.

[stat]

7 minutes ago, shdmn said:

That is not how it works.  At least not in Canada.  When I apply to become a non-resident for tax purposes, I have to declare capital gains and pay taxes on them, even if they are unrealized.

Good info there for the canadians! It works flawless in Germany and a lot of other countries that I know of. The only other country where it does not work that I know of is Austria until your post.

[stat]

Do I understand correctly that the 17% income tax treatment is only applicable to highly skilled professional and not to wealthy pensioner LTR?

[shdmn]

8 minutes ago, stat said:

Good info there for the canadians! It works flawless in Germany and a lot of other countries that I know of. The only other country where it does not work that I know of is Austria until your post.

I am not an international tax expert and I doubt you are either.  What I do know is that most if not all G20 countries have tax treaties with each other and tend to do the same thing on these matters, so I doubt that some of them would allow a tax loophole like that while others would not.

[sabaiguy]

3 hours ago, 1tent42 said:

If you have an LTR visa and have never filed a TM47, will immigration still require one when you apply for a certificate of residence?

Just filed for certificate of residence this week.  Just showed LTR and TM30, told to come back in a week to pick it up.  I don't even know what a TM47 is.  Chiang Rai.  About as laid back an immigration office as I can imagine.

[sabaiguy]

29 minutes ago, shdmn said:

That is not how it works.  At least not in Canada.  When I apply to become a non-resident for tax purposes, I have to pay taxes on realized AND unrealized capital gains.  For example, if I am still holding META or NVDA stock and the current market value is $1000 higher than my book value, I will have to pay capital gains tax on that $1000 difference even though I have not sold the stock and plan to continue holding it after becoming a non-resident.

That's hard to believe.

[1tent42]

41 minutes ago, sabaiguy said:

Just filed for certificate of residence this week.  Just showed LTR and TM30, told to come back in a week to pick it up.  I don't even know what a TM47 is.  Chiang Rai.  About as laid back an immigration office as I can imagine.

This is good to know. 

[K2938]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Do I understand correctly that the 17% income tax treatment is only applicable to highly skilled professional and not to wealthy pensioner LTR?

Correct

[sabaiguy]

55 minutes ago, sabaiguy said:

That's hard to believe.

Not that I don't believe you.  Can't believe Canada treats cap gains that way.  So do you have to pay income tax on income you don't receive?

[stat]

34 minutes ago, sabaiguy said:

Not that I don't believe you.  Can't believe Canada treats cap gains that way.  So do you have to pay income tax on income you don't receive?

This is the way it is done in Austria with all share holdings (and apparently in CAN) but in Germany it is only appplied when you own more then 1% of a company and you leave the country. Quite a challenge to own 1% of SAP or Apple. However if you own more then 1% you have to pay the unrealized gains when leaving.