Thawing UK Frozen Pensions

[hotandsticky]

I don't think we have had a discussion on this for a few weeks.

 

A friend was looking at getting his UK state pension increased by going back to the UK for 6 months.

 

His story is that he came here at 65 years of age and didn't tell the UK authorities that he had moved to Thailand. After 3 years his pension payment was stopped because a life certificate had been sent to his son's address - and the son had moved without anyone thinking to tell DWP. He said that he was in Thailand and had decided to stay permanently, so his pension was frozen at that point.

 

He is now 76 years old and interested in the possibility of 'thawing' his pension. Bar stool experts had told him that he could go back to the UK for 6 months, claim an increase to current levels, then return to Thailand. That is partially true but he did not realise that he could not legitimately keep the increases on his return - the payments revert to the previous frozen level. 

 

 

He asked me if I thought there was a way round it. 

 

I replied that there was; but he would have to lie about his visit to the UK and he would have to lie (by not advising DWP) about his return to Thailand. 

 

 

Rather like recent posts about claiming the state pension on the basis of being UK based vs Thailand based, it becomes a moral question.

 

Here, let me declare my hand. I spent most of my working life in the banking industry where I think I played everything with a straight bat - and there was little/no opportunity to make a discretionary decision to play outside the rules. After that I ran my own businesses and became more street-wise, discovering the opportunities to 'play the system'. I quickly realised that the authorities give you sod all and are quick to take anything or put up obstacles to doing business. They are also not the sharpest at policing their own regulations.

 

I think everyone agrees that freezing UK Pensions for expats in Thailand is not fair, and (despite numerous petitions/legal cases etc) no government is going to reverse the decision. But, the door is open for those who want to take justice in their own hands. I am not for one moment encouraging any righteous person (note, I genuinely avoided 'self-righteous') to do something that they are uncomfortable with  - and any natural justice in this context carries it's own risks. I am looking forward to Brit Man Too expressing how simple and (relatively) risk free it actually is....... which is true IMO.

 

Lie, remember the lie and repeat the lie is the mantra for my friend to maximise the thawing of his pension. In his case, after a nominal increase in tax liability, and after the anticipated 10% rise in April, he would take home an extra 100,000+ Baht per annum (and receive future annual increases). The risk is simply that of being caught out; he wasn't smart last time and many experienced posters on here know that this is not a 'benefit fraud' and therefore has minimal consequences if 'caught'.

 

For him, he could simply visit his son for a month. Tell DWP that, for health reasons, he is returning to the UK to live with his son. Return to Thailand. Job done. Understand the lie and live with it; be prepared for any subsequent challenge via life certificate or other.

 

I wonder how the members of ASEAN NOW will view this one. 

 

(Please note - please do not fire your bullets at me; I am not recommending any illegitimate actions - I am simply highlighting how a friend of mine could 'unfreeze' his UK pension.

 

 

 

[jonbeen]

No 6 months,do it from Thailand,no penalties,even tho others will rush" i know someone brigade"bs  envy ,name of the game

  More like 300,000 if defined pension taken into account,plus year after rise if inflation is still there,total of 400,000 plus,plus 500 extra this xmas

[KIngsofisaan]

I love these posts about a "friend" that ramble on and on and on.

 

It is amazing how many details about his life from age 65 to age 76 that you recall!

Edited July 26, 2022 by KIngsofisaan

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, KIngsofisaan said:

I love these posts about a "friend" that ramble on and on and on.

You don't have to read them if they have no relevance to you.

[scubascuba3]

I'm not sure going back for a month is worth it, trip will cost several thousand pounds, maybe he can do it from Thailand or move to Philippines 

[BritManToo]

10 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

His story is that he came here at 65 years of age and didn't tell the UK authorities that he had moved to Thailand. After 3 years his pension payment was stopped because a life certificate had been sent to his son's address - and the son had moved without anyone thinking to tell DWP. He said that he was in Thailand and had decided to stay permanently, so his pension was frozen at that point.

Life certificates aren't required or issued to pensioners living in the UK.

So just a story, and not a very convincing story.

Edited July 27, 2022 by BritManToo

[Troy Tempest]

I cannot get my UK pension until I am 66 next year.

 

I have no intention of moving back to the UK permanently in the near future, but I used to go back every year for a couple of months to visit friends and family.

 

My problem will be that I have been registered with HMRC as non-resident for 10 years.....I still have to pay tax on any UK income which at the moment I only get from renting my house out.

 

I think I will just have to put up with frozen pension unless I eventually return to live in the UK and change my tax status or as a previous poster said move to the Philippines and then put up with cr@p food, high rents, poor infrastructure, fat birds, cr@p internet and Typhoons!

 

Better to live in Thailand with frozen pension than live in a Freezing cold miserable climate (most of the time in the UK) and pay a fortune on Energy Bills and everything else for that matter!

 

Just saying!

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Troy Tempest

[Asquith Production]

10 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

The risk is simply that of being caught out; he wasn't smart last time and many experienced posters on here know that this is not a 'benefit fraud' and therefore has minimal consequences if 'caught'.

The fraud is whats been committed by the U.k government against people who paid N.I contributions. Also discrimination based on my address.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Asquith Production
add text

[sanuk711]

10 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Bar stool experts had told him that he could go back to the UK for 6 months, claim an increase to current levels

Why go back to the UK for 6 miserable months-?  Why try to cover up where you are living? Just tell them your moving to the Philippines to live--go stay there in the sun for a while---they will never know if you then left there for a long visit to Thailand.

 

Other countries with UK benefits arrangements

The following countries have social security agreements with the UK:

• Barbados
• Bermuda
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
• Canada
• Channel Islands
• Gibraltar
• Israel
• Jamaica
• Kosovo
• Mauritius
• Montenegro
• New Zealand
• North Macedonia
• the Philippines
• Serbia
• Turkey
• USA
•  
• .https://www.gov.uk/claim-benefits-abroad/where-you-can-claim-benefits

 

Most of last week I was talking to Newcastle about a Bereavement benefits package for the widow of a pensioner friend-- its about £3,500 --+ a few months pension payment--- Bottom line sorry cant help if its Thailand--Philippines yes

Edited July 27, 2022 by sanuk711

[sammieuk1]

My personnel view is they have no qualms about raising the pension age from 65-66 and adding 5 years to the NI contributions 30-35 plus with now having the full 35 years showing I'm £19pw short unless I want to buy more years back at £800 a pop

And with never being able to live here other than a temporary stay I'm not telling any lie as to where I live some others may have different views ????    

[sometimewoodworker]

46 minutes ago, Troy Tempest said:

I cannot get my UK pension until I am 66 next year.

 

I have no intention of moving back to the UK permanently in the near future, but I used to go back every year for a couple of months to visit friends and family.

 

My problem will be that I have been registered with HMRC as non-resident for 10 years.....I still have to pay tax on any UK income which at the moment I only get from renting my house out.

 

I think I will just have to put up with frozen pension unless I eventually return to live in the UK and change my tax status or as a previous poster said move to the Philippines and then put up with cr@p food, high rents, poor infrastructure, fat birds, cr@p internet and Typhoons!

 

Better to live in Thailand with frozen pension than live in a Freezing cold miserable climate (most of the time in the UK) and pay a fortune on Energy Bills and everything else for that matter!

 

Just saying!

 

 

You will still get the personal allowance and for the duration the time you are in the UK you will the higher amount of the pension.

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Life certificates aren't required or issued to pensioners living in the UK.

So just a story, and not a very convincing story.

Yes they are. 

 

That was the only way my friend was caught out originally. 

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, Troy Tempest said:

.I still have to pay tax on any UK income which at the moment I only get from renting my house out.

An accountant can reduce your rental tax by quite a bit for depreciation of the property and his fee is deductible. I was also told you can claim all expensive for visiting the property at least once a year. When I told my accountant the agent does house inspections his answer was ''a friend drove past it and informed you it was looking in disrepair so you flew back, you can claim the return flight and hotel expenses''  But that was Australia and accountants are relatively cheap even so...........

[BritManToo]

24 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Yes they are. 

That was the only way my friend was caught out originally. 

None of the UK pensioners I know have ever heard of them (and I know plenty).

Death certificates issued in the UK are connected to the National Office of Statistics which shares information with the DWP.

 

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

None of the UK pensioners I know have ever heard of them (and I know plenty).

Death certificates issued in the UK are connected to the National Office of Statistics which shares information with the DWP.

 

I guess you mean life certificates, not death certificates. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

Call me a liar if you wish but, 1) Why would I do that and 2) I was sat with my friend when he called DWP and they told him that his pension had been stopped because a life certificate was not responded to. 

 

He is also the only person with a UK address that I know has received a life cert. The only 'quirk' in his circumstances was a slight enhancement to his pension because his wife died. But - he was definitely sent, otherwise he would still be getting the annual increases.

 

I am disappointed in your post because I specifically mentioned you in the OP as someone who knows their way around systems/procedures.

Edited July 27, 2022 by hotandsticky

[brianthainess]

26 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Yes they are. 

 

That was the only way my friend was caught out originally. 

''You MAY get a life certificate'', is what their site says.

[Alidiver]

 I'd never heard of Life Certificate so googled it.

Below is from www.uk.gov

[rak sa_ngop]

When you consider the fact that overseas retirees make little or no use of the UK National Health Service, it should make good financial sense for the UK to encourage people to retire overseas.....even pay them extra to do this.

I remember reading years ago (about 7) that the average pensioner costs the NHS £7,000  a year. We are saving the nation heaps by staying in Thailand.

[hotandsticky]

7 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

''You MAY get a life certificate'', is what their site says.

 

 

To be fair, that quote is from the 'retire abroad' page.

 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/report-a-change-in-your-circumstances

[BritManToo]

21 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Call me a liar if you wish but, 1) Why would I do that and 2) I was sat with my friend when he called DWP and they told him that his pension had been stopped because a life certificate was not responded to. 

I would say you friend was mistaken, and if he was really sent a life certificate it was because they suspected him of living outside the UK. Never let anyone know you are living outside the UK, not your bank, doctor, friends, relatives, or any government agency.

 

Don't

1. post using your real name on social media.

2. use UK issued debit/credit cards to purchase items or in ATMs regularly outside the UK.

3. renew your passport/driving licence outside of the UK.

4. phone up any official/agency/bank from outside the UK.

 

I even go so far as to keep a London landline number through Skype ($90/year), so they can call me in the UK, and I can call them from the UK.

 

If you were with your friend in Thailand when he called the DWP how did he call them? ..... you know they can see where calls are coming from (unless you use a Skype UK landline number).

Edited July 27, 2022 by BritManToo

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

To be fair, that quote is from the 'retire abroad' page.

 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/report-a-change-in-your-circumstances

Not if you type in 'living in the UK'' but yes i agree there seems to be discrepancies and no clear answer if in the UK. 

[Swimfan]

12 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

That is partially true but he did not realise that he could not legitimately keep the increases on his return - the payments revert to the previous frozen level. 

I would investigate further if that is actually the case. My understanding is the increase becomes permanent and portable after 6 months

Edited July 27, 2022 by Swimfan

[foreverlomsak]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Life certificates aren't required or issued to pensioners living in the UK.

So just a story, and not a very convincing story.

yeah. caught that as well, does put the rest of the story into a questionable light.

[BritManToo]

23 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

I guess you mean life certificates, not death certificates. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

No I mean Death Certificates as they are the way the DWP finds out you are dead if a pensioner living in the UK. For pensioners living/dying outside the UK the DWP doesn't automatically get informed of deaths.

[Chongalulu]

29 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

An accountant can reduce your rental tax by quite a bit for depreciation of the property and his fee is deductible. I was also told you can claim all expensive for visiting the property at least once a year. When I told my accountant the agent does house inspections his answer was ''a friend drove past it and informed you it was looking in disrepair so you flew back, you can claim the return flight and hotel expenses''  But that was Australia and accountants are relatively cheap even so...........

'Depreciation of the property' ?? What you really have to watch out for is the CGT (Capital gains tax) liability when you sell the house as it is not exempt by virtue of now not being yoir principal residence and over several years that could be substantial(U.K. ) . You could,as I do,fill in your own tax return deducting legitimate expenses which are listed. I think you’re on shaky ground re travel expenses home. 
Regarding frozen pensions,it is unconsciously egregious by the U.K. government with no justification  ,so morally , anyone that 'cheats' is simply repaying like with like. 
Next April the U.K. pension is budgeted to increase by 10% (£960 per annum) so the impact is even more accentuated.
 

[jonbeen]

24 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

No I mean Death Certificates as they are the way the DWP finds out you are dead if a pensioner living in the UK. For pensioners living/dying outside the UK the DWP doesn't automatically get informed of deaths.

From what I see this poster set his pension up using .gov.uk,no paper trail,but that does not mean there will not be a paper trail eventually.  Two letters are sent out yearly to whatever UK address is recorded (he has not received any as yet)   but he will. If any of these two letters are returned a PoL will be sent out to same address,fill it in send it back,no problem

    Problem  ,small one actually, you self snitched on yourself  (or friend) so frozen,unfreeze is easy,call them,new address,do not know when I return to Thailand

[chilly07]

3 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

Why go back to the UK for 6 miserable months-?  Why try to cover up where you are living? Just tell them your moving to the Philippines to live--go stay there in the sun for a while---they will never know if you then left there for a long visit to Thailand.

 

Other countries with UK benefits arrangements

The following countries have social security agreements with the UK:

• Barbados
• Bermuda
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
• Canada
• Channel Islands
• Gibraltar
• Israel
• Jamaica
• Kosovo
• Mauritius
• Montenegro
• New Zealand
• North Macedonia
• the Philippines
• Serbia
• Turkey
• USA
•  
• .https://www.gov.uk/claim-benefits-abroad/where-you-can-claim-benefits

 

Most of last week I was talking to Newcastle about a Bereavement benefits package for the widow of a pensioner friend-- its about £3,500 --+ a few months pension payment--- Bottom line sorry cant help if its Thailand--Philippines yes

Seems there is a business opportunity setting up post/addresses/ boxes for Thai expats in the Philippines! Now how many UK state pensioners in Thailand? Wait I can add in those living in Australia Canada South Africa South Asia Africa Caribbean. Oh but maybe the DWP will notice if 500k UK state pensioners have suddenly moved to Manila?

[sammieuk1]

Anyone know what someone would do if you were living in an off grid setup for example a camper van as many do these days as regards to a UK address there is no option when you come to claim your own paid for pension ???? 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Anyone know what someone would do if you were living in an off grid setup for example a camper van as many do these days as regards to a UK address there is no option when you come to claim your own paid for pension ???? 

Just give them any UK address ..... they don't check.

In fact the DWP admit they have no current address for 40% of pensioners.

[hotandsticky]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Just give them any UK address ..... they don't check.

In fact the DWP admit they have no current address for 40% of pensioners.

 

 

Now, THAT'S the sort of contribution I was expecting from you. ????