Cardio exercise after broken knee

[Lorry]

Had a fracture of a knee a while ago,  so now i cannot jog (walking is ok), doctor advises against cycling (i thought that's good for the knees,  but when i try it hurts).

Physical therapist recommended swimming,  but how can splashing around in the water make me break a sweat? I have been swimming all my life, but never got exhausted like i get from interval training.

I heard about Nordic walking (never understood what that is),  but we are not in Scandinavia here...

 

Any ideas?

[mania]

I am no expert but imagine any non load bearing exercise will be good.

 

Hence the swimming. I would have also thought the cycling would be fine & perhaps your initial pain is too high a gear. If you can sit & spin 90-100rpm you will get a good workout with no heavy load on the knee but again I do not know the extent of your injury. If it was just a fracture the pain you feel now could be stiffness from non use etc too

 

But that aside & back to swimming. Do you know how to swim laps do distance? I mean not splash around but do continuous laps & do a few thousand meters or a mile+

Trust me it is exercise. ???? The only reason it comes before the bike & run in Tri is many would die if it came last 555????

 

Good Luck with your rehab hope you feel better soon! Just keep moving!

Edited September 12, 2022 by mania

[scubascuba3]

I would try cycling again, you may need to wait until no pain

[kwonitoy]

Nordic walking machine, kind of a cyclic back and forth with your legs and arms.

Good for low impact, never liked them myself, hard to get my heart rate up

 

 

[HighPriority]

I’d be asking my Dr “why not cycling ?”

Rowing is very highly regarded I believe.

Swimming is good, but a sound technique reduces the benefits, in that you become more efficient through the water.

Good luck

[hansombeast]

Hi lorry, being an ex athlete myself I understand your thought process on this. But first you'll have to strengthen the knee to be able to cycle or cross train, and as mania said swimming is the best for of non load bearing excercise, if you go to a pool and swim hard for 1 HR that's an overall body workout and in that time you may swim 1 mile. Be patient with rehab don't force the issue. Good luck mate

[BigStar]

 

https://baye.com/qa-best-cardio-equipment/

 

Ken Cooper determined most popular, conventional thinking about cardio, but the cardiovascular system extends throughout the body, surprise. The aerobic pathway isn't more important than all the others combined and isn't isolated from all the others. Exercise only one leg and it becomes metabolically conditioned.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1748-1716.1976.tb10200.x

 

As for the heart, it doesn't care how exactly it's being stimulated; low-intensity steady state is hardly the only way; and intensity give a lot more bang for buck. Doug McGuff has a good discussion about this in Body By Science. You might also read up on interval training starting with the McMaster U studies. Martin Gibala, one the McMaster researchers, has a book with a number of short but effective routines in The One Minute Workout. You can use weights, machines, bodyweight, super slow intensity lifting, isometrics, or timed static contractions to achieve sufficient cardiovascular fitness. 

 

[retiree]

Somewhat similar situation.  Best solution I've found is treadmill HIIT.  I typically warm up 5 minutes, then go: 

 

 - highest incline (15 degrees) to reduce the number of steps needed,

 - highest speed I can walk, arms free, with a fast but normal stride for 30-60 secs (8.0 of 15.0 on these machines), 

 - 30 seconds on / 30 seconds off for 10 minutes (I hop my feet to the side panels, but don't slow the machine),

 - never more than twice / week -- it's kind of a killer w/o for me. 

 

At 70ish this is the best pure cardio I've found, with 5 minutes at pace.   I usually manage to get my heart rate over 170 max, and over 155 bpm for 5 - 6 minutes total (using a Scosche wrist monitor).  I sometimes vary the incline / speed / and interval.   Holding the handles / sidebars makes it a bit easier if you're afraid of stumbling.  There's not much knee bend, so I don't get any pain. 

 

A good elliptical striding machine is also great (maybe even too good) for knee-sparing if the design is such that you can get your H/R up high enough (some of them suck).  

 

-- Retiree 

[Sheryl]

How long ago is "a while ago"? 

 

If 6 montgs or less do not undertake any load bearing exercise unless cleared by your doctor.

 

And do not  persist with anything that causes pain. Bone aside, you can easily pull a tendon or ligament by over-exercising. Everything tightens up inthe initial recovery period and needx to be stretched back out gradually.

 

Swimming (actual swimming, not splashing about) is excellent cardio.

[retiree]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

And do not  persist with anything that causes pain.

My bad -- I incorrectly thought the OP was healed up, and just avoiding running now.   Apologies, and I 100% agree -- do nothing that causes pain, and ease very slowly into anything with a high stress load even after you're pain-free.  HIIT involving any injured area is a definite no-no if you're less than whole (or as whole as one gets at our age ???? ). 

 

Swimming can be a lot more strenuous if you use a snorkel (and maybe a float for your legs), so you can just concentrate on stroking (rather than not drowning ???? ).   I'd do it more if I didn't tend to get rashes.  

 

The other best thing I've found for cardio with just upper body is pressing at different angles (from flat, to sitting upright) using a Smith machine for safety if possible, or the same with pulling at different angles (from overhead, to horizontal seated) using a height-adjustable cable / pulley.   I usually go for whatever weight I can manage for either 1 minute sets, or 100-rep sets.  It's not very heavy but can be very hard, esp. if you try not to rest -- just alternate exercises & stay in motion.   Imho also excellent with dumbbells a couple of days a month when you are healthy. 

 

I've also tried using just the arm things on an elliptical trainer (standing on boxes on either side) but it was always awkward.  Same for arms-only on rowing machine -- too awkward. 

 

Btw, not saying killer workouts, even brief HIIT ones, are necessary -- favored workout intensity is entirely up to the individual.  Imho this is an excellent study, out last month, that discusses how high and low effort can be balanced (see Table 2 in the full paper pdf): 

Long-Term Leisure-Time Physical Activity Intensity and All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality: A Prospective Cohort of US Adults

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/07/220725105618.htm    discussion, but no graphs

http://sbgg.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/1658917123_1_Physical_Activity_Intensity_and_All-Cause.pdf  

 

It's a good follow-up to this 2016 paper, which focused on total METS (effort), not workout intensity: 
Physical activity and risk of breast cancer, colon cancer, diabetes, ischemic heart disease, and ischemic stroke events: systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2013

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i3857

 

They both have the same takeaway:  

... adults who perform two to four times the currently recommended amount of moderate or vigorous physical activity per week have a significantly reduced risk of mortality (2022 paper)

 

... People who achieve total physical activity levels several times higher than the current recommended minimum level have a significant reduction in the risk of the five diseases studied (2016 paper)

 

-- Retiree

Edited September 13, 2022 by retiree

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

"a while ago"

10 months

Doctors cleared me for everything.

 

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Swimming (actual swimming, not splashing about) is excellent cardio.

I have been swimming all my life, not competitive,  but for fun. 

I have never felt exhausted from swimming.  That's why I feel it's just splashing about. 

There is a Japanese guy at our condo who seems to do HIIT swimming. He looks very fit. I will try to copy him.

[Lorry]

26 minutes ago, retiree said:

I incorrectly thought the OP was healed up, and just avoiding running now.

Actually,  quite correct. 

[poyai111]

Forget your legs entirely until they are 100%. Concentrate on core and upper body. Highly recommend kayaking. Rowing requires utilisation of the legs - paddling does not. 

[Lacessit]

Very gentle cycling was recommended for me after tearing a knee meniscus, and having surgery. Stop if there is any pain.

If you don't feel tired after swimming, you are either not swimming fast enough, or long enough.

[CygnusX1]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:10 AM, HighPriority said:

Swimming is good, but a sound technique reduces the benefits, in that you become more efficient through the water.

That’s great news for me! I’ve just started swimming laps at the local pool as a substitute for the running my arthritic  knees no longer permit. My swimming technique’s hopeless, which explains why I’m quickly exhausted and breathing really hard after only a few laps.

[Iron Tongue]

I have similar injuries.

1.  Swimming is the best as you get to exercise whole body using water resistance.

2.  Have you tried a recumbent bicycle?  The recumbent body position takes the weight of your body off of the knees yet allows you to still get a leg & cardio workout.

3.  Rowing machine may also work.  Have you seen the new ones that use a waterwheel?

[tpkhk]

If you are in Bangkok, Aquabiking maybe worth a look (Soi 22, held at the Holiday Inn). 

 

Stationary Bikes in the water, group sessions.  

[BigStar]

55 minutes ago, Iron Tongue said:

2.  Have you tried a recumbent bicycle?  The recumbent body position takes the weight of your body off of the knees yet allows you to still get a leg & cardio workout.

Yes. I'd thought to suggest this, glad you did.

[Lorry]

3 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Yes. I'd thought to suggest this, glad you did.

I will try it today

[BigStar]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

I will try it today

You'll know what to do. For those not accustomed to cycling, I'd spend a week or two getting conditioned then work up to doing 2 - 3 sessions a week of serious interval training, which might take only 20 min each including warmup and cooldown. SO efficient, leaving one feeling exhausted but--good & fit.

 

Classic study:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1995688/

 

Various routines are out there on the 'net, some less intense than others.

 

 

[kingstonkid]

13 hours ago, Lorry said:

10 months

Doctors cleared me for everything.

 

I have been swimming all my life, not competitive,  but for fun. 

I have never felt exhausted from swimming.  That's why I feel it's just splashing about. 

There is a Japanese guy at our condo who seems to do HIIT swimming. He looks very fit. I will try to copy him.

The other option for the pool has nothing to do with swimming.  I messed up my back and that is where the Dr sent me

BUT it was to do an aerobic workout.  

Do the same workout that a person would do on land in the pool.  

 

Even walking distance in the pool is harder.

If you want to test my reasoning go to a beach walk on land then go into the water up just below your knees and walk the same distance.

[Lorry]

55 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Do the same workout that a person would do on land in the pool.  

That's an interesting idea, never occurred to me.

Sounds logical. 

So that's another thing i will try today. 

 

Thx a lot to all posters,  lots of good advice. 

[hotchilli]

On 9/13/2022 at 12:29 AM, Lorry said:

Any ideas?

Swimming exercises the whole body.. and is good for the core muscles, while you exert no real pressure on your body due to the buoyancy.

I've never seen a fat Olympic swimmer yet.

[watthong]

14 hours ago, Lorry said:

I have never felt exhausted from swimming.  That's why I feel it's just splashing about.

I would give anything to be able to get back to (lap) swimming. I used to swim laps but had to stop after getting eczema and nowadays how chlorine affects my skin is akin to holy water to vampires. I remember switching from 25 m length pool to olympic size pool had the effect of "expanding" my lungs measurably. The only drawback - not to me personally - also the most often heard complaint that it is boring as hell (that's why some folks wear earbuds while swimming, which gives credence to when there is a will there's a way.)

 

What is lap swimming? Swimming from one end of the pool to the other, turn around, repeat. Speed is up to you, soon enough you would like to increase your speed (out of boredom I would guess) and voila, cardio. No stress whatsoever to your joints, and your spine will thank you profusely.  Wear earbuds/ipod if you need to, probably the most expensive piece of "swimming" accessories of the bunch. And remember, just like any sport, you need to warm up, work out then cool down. Your heart will owe you eternal gratitude.

 

[watthong]

2 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

My swimming technique’s hopeless, which explains why I’m quickly exhausted and breathing really hard after only a few laps.

What you did/are doing is probably the same thing with athletes doing 300 yard dash. All who do this whether professional or not end up the same way. I've seen this with various friends whom got corralled into "going to the pool" with me. This has nothing to do with "technique." Remember, just like in any sport, you need to warm up, work out then cool down.

 

For beginners, simply do warm ups, slow and practice breathing while you are afloat, the most important technique for being in water. My favorite method is simply "standing" up in the water, kicking/pedaling my feet to stay afloat and concentrating on doing regular breathing. (If you can hold a conversation with your fellow swimmer while doing that then you're good.) 30 min in the water with no "splashing" then you're done. After a month or so, gradually proceed from warming up to the next step, working out. "Gradually" is the key word.  Swim at your own comfortable speed from one end of the pool to the other, turn around, repeat. If you get to panting at any point then you're going faster than your body is able to at that stage, so slow down. Once you get some work out then cool down. Set your goal to this: 20min for 1st stage, 10min for 2nd, then take as long as you like for 3rd stage, cooling down (do not skip this step and rush out of the pooi.)

[1FinickyOne]

No Runnning wth sccissors

[SportRider]

Pain is a message, listen to it.

 

I had a knee injury many years ago that prevents me running, and for me too cycling gets painful.

 

Walking suits me perfectly - my machine has adjustable incline.  Set it to 15% uphill and as brisk walking speed as you can manage.  As well as your heart, your leg muscle groups will really tell you about it..  (Lifts a saggy as.s too!)

[LOS1]

Bought an elliptical trainer for my wife and I've been using it 5 days a week. Seems to help my "bad" knee alot. Better than walking in the park. Check it out.

 

[Captor]

On 9/13/2022 at 5:10 AM, HighPriority said:

I’d be asking my Dr “why not cycling ?”

Rowing is very highly regarded I believe.

Swimming is good, but a sound technique reduces the benefits, in that you become more efficient through the water.

Good luck

I have seen many thais cycling here in bangkok and almost all of them are doing wrong. They have the saddle very low and that means when cycling the knees almost touches the chin when cycling. THAT way it is a huge force on the knee. But if put the saddle higher up it is less force on the knew, almost no force at all, and it is more easy to cycle too as a bonus. Give it a try if your saddle is low as the thai way.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Captor

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, Captor said:

I have seen many thais cycling here in bangkok and almost all of them are doing wrong. They have the saddle very low and that means when cycling the knees almost touches the chin when cycling. THAT way it is a huge force on the knee. But if put the saddle higher up it is less force on the knew, almost no force at all, and it is more easy to cycle too as a bonus. Give it a try if your saddle is low as the thai way.

True. And one should adjust a recumbent bike the same way further to reduce force. The recumbent is also easier on the back, and the seat is a lot more comfortable, no need for a special prostate-protecting split saddle if that's a concern.