5 people are killed, at least 18 injured in a shooting at a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nonsense. There is literally no way to prove that. He could have just as easily used a handgun or two.  Like the killer at Virginia Tech 15 years ago- he killed 32 people with two handguns.

 

Or a shotgun. Or a combination. Like most mass shooters do.  There is nothing mystical or demonic about semi automatic rifles.  Again you are letting feelings get in the way of facts. 

Think you need to go back and look at the evidence

[Hanaguma]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

So totally abaft of the beam, demonstrating nothing more than you don't read links provided for your edification.

Oh, I do. Very much so .  But they generally don't contain any useful information. Mostly empty platitudes and irrelevant numbers.  Nothing that would move the discussion anywhere but in an emotional circle.   

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Think you need to go back and look at the evidence

I have.  What did I miss? Long guns are only 3% of gun killings in the US. That includes what people term "assault weapons".  Is that wrong?

 

The number of strangers (as opposed to family/known people) killed in mass shootings is around 50 per year. is that wrong?

 

The type of weapon used has no bearing on the lethality of a mass shooting event. Is that wrong?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

I have.  What did I miss? Long guns are only 3% of gun killings in the US. That includes what people term "assault weapons".  Is that wrong?

 

The number of strangers (as opposed to family/known people) killed in mass shootings is around 50 per year. is that wrong?

 

The type of weapon used has no bearing on the lethality of a mass shooting event. Is that wrong?

You missed the reason why so many children were killed at uvalde

 You also missed the link I provided earlier where assault weapons when used cause more deaths and injuries

[Bkk Brian]

In 1994, President Bill Clinton signed an assault-weapons ban, which banned the AR-15 and other similar semiautomatic rifles.

After its ban, mass shootings were down in the decade that followed, in comparison to the decade before (1984-94) and the one after (2004-14), NPR reported in 2018.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting

[Fat is a type of crazy]

42 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Oh, I do. Very much so .  But they generally don't contain any useful information. Mostly empty platitudes and irrelevant numbers.  Nothing that would move the discussion anywhere but in an emotional circle.   

Emotions can be relevant. Can't imagine living in a society where idiots can walk the streets and look tough with any gun let alone assault style weapons.

Kids insecure - seeing so may deaths in big cities - more deaths from small guns but the threat of what an assault weapon can do, and knowing so many are out there, would do your head in a bit I think. 

[Hanaguma]

55 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You missed the reason why so many children were killed at uvalde

 You also missed the link I provided earlier where assault weapons when used cause more deaths and injuries

COuld you point out in the article where it stated how many fewer victims there would have been at Uvalde, had the killer not used an AR 15? Because I couldnt find it. 

 

If you are worried about the severity of injuries then you should want to ban shotguns and bolt action rifles. A 30.06 round from a hunting rifle does things to the human body that a .223 from an AR style cannot match. Ditto a blast from a 12 gauge at close range. Gruesome. 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

COuld you point out in the article where it stated how many fewer victims there would have been at Uvalde, had the killer not used an AR 15? Because I couldnt find it. 

 

If you are worried about the severity of injuries then you should want to ban shotguns and bolt action rifles. A 30.06 round from a hunting rifle does things to the human body that a .223 from an AR style cannot match. Ditto a blast from a 12 gauge at close range. Gruesome. 

No just would like to see assault weapons banned were evidence makes it clear there would be less deaths in a mass shoiting as well as less serious injuries.

[Hanaguma]

52 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

In 1994, President Bill Clinton signed an assault-weapons ban, which banned the AR-15 and other similar semiautomatic rifles.

After its ban, mass shootings were down in the decade that followed, in comparison to the decade before (1984-94) and the one after (2004-14), NPR reported in 2018.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting

Yes, mass shootings were down. Yet the murder rate was not. It was dropping since the 70s and continuted to do so up to the mid 2010s. The ban did nothing to counter the overall crime rate whatsoever.

[metisdead]

A post with a chart that was copy and pasted from an unknown source has been removed as there was no link to the source of information provided. 

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

No just would like to see assault weapons banned were evidence makes it clear there would be less deaths in a mass shoiting as well as less serious injuries.

Butwhere is the evidence? Uvalde? Sandy Hook? How many lives would have been saved if the shooter had not used an "assault weapon"?  Only 10 victims at Uvalde if he had used handguns?  

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Butwhere is the evidence? Uvalde? Sandy Hook? How many lives would have been saved if the shooter had not used an "assault weapon"?  Only 10 victims at Uvalde if he had used handguns?  

Are you trolling. Evidence has already been provided for all mass shootings including uvalde. Read the link

[billd766]

2 hours ago, bbi1 said:

Not surprised at all. This is America. Shootings are a daily part of American life.

Have you ever asked yourself WHY they are a daily part of American life?

[billd766]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Are you trolling. Evidence has already been provided for all mass shootings including uvalde. Read the link

Of course he is trolling. He always does.

 

I put him on ignore months ago. The more you feed him the worse he gets.

 

Simply ignore him, and you deprive him of the chance to troll.

[ozimoron]

34 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

COuld you point out in the article where it stated how many fewer victims there would have been at Uvalde, had the killer not used an AR 15? Because I couldnt find it. 

 

If you are worried about the severity of injuries then you should want to ban shotguns and bolt action rifles. A 30.06 round from a hunting rifle does things to the human body that a .223 from an AR style cannot match. Ditto a blast from a 12 gauge at close range. Gruesome. 

You have be being deliberately obtuse here. A 30.06 is not a rapid fire weapon and neither is a shotgun, both requiring significant time and effort to reload. From a single bullet, sure. Per attack, no way known. You have failed to address the per attack casualties for any weapon vs the AR-15.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Are you trolling. Evidence has already been provided for all mass shootings including uvalde. Read the link

I didn't see any evidence that said that the shooter's choice of weapon had any impact on the casualties.  I admit I am a bit thick sometimes, but I could not see anything to that effect.

[Hanaguma]

42 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You have be being deliberately obtuse here. A 30.06 is not a rapid fire weapon and neither is a shotgun, both requiring significant time and effort to reload. From a single bullet, sure. Per attack, no way known. You have failed to address the per attack casualties for any weapon vs the AR-15.

Well, according to the data assault weapons are not used in the majority of mass shootings. Most are either handguns alone, or handgun plus shotgun/rifle (not assault rifle).  A person with two handguns can easily do as much damage as a person with two long guns, if not more. The handguns are easier to conceal from people.  

 

Again, according to the FBI, long guns (including assault weapons) are only used in 3% of murders by firearm.  Why be so focussed on them? There are upwards of 20 MILLION AR style weapons currently owned by Americans- how many are used in these atrocities?  People like them because (in the mind of the buyer) they look cool.  But they are basically the same as any other semi automatic rifle. Same round, same power. They just look "tough" to some people. Kind of like guys who buy Camaros or Mustangs with 4 cylinder engines. 

[ozimoron]

27 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Well, according to the data assault weapons are not used in the majority of mass shootings. Most are either handguns alone, or handgun plus shotgun/rifle (not assault rifle).  A person with two handguns can easily do as much damage as a person with two long guns, if not more. The handguns are easier to conceal from people.  

 

Again, according to the FBI, long guns (including assault weapons) are only used in 3% of murders by firearm.  Why be so focussed on them? There are upwards of 20 MILLION AR style weapons currently owned by Americans- how many are used in these atrocities?  People like them because (in the mind of the buyer) they look cool.  But they are basically the same as any other semi automatic rifle. Same round, same power. They just look "tough" to some people. Kind of like guys who buy Camaros or Mustangs with 4 cylinder engines. 

Public outrage is why I focussed on AR-15's and mass shootings. That, together with the fact that children are high on the list of common targets in mass shootings. AR-15's are the preferred weapon for mass shootings. Additionally, the seriousness of the injuries is far greater than any other weapon typically used which is the MAIN basis for mass shooters choosing to use this weapon.

 

Can you admit that the death and serious injury rate is higher for AR-15's than any other available weapon on a PER ATTACK basis?

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/28/1101307932/texas-shooting-uvalde-gun-violence-children-teenagers

 

Much of the outrage stemmed from the militaristic appearance of those guns, and their ability to fire rapidly.

But there was also a more visceral reason, involving flesh and blood. AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue than the typical handgun, which is used in most shootings.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/america-s-rifle-why-so-many-people-love-ar-15-n831171

 

AR-15s Were Made to Explode Human Bodies. In Uvalde, the Bodies Belonged to Children.

Parents awaiting word on their kids were asked by police to provide DNA samples to help identify the children.

 

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/26/ar-15-uvalde-school-shooting-vietnam-war/

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

You have be being deliberately obtuse here. A 30.06 is not a rapid fire weapon and neither is a shotgun, both requiring significant time and effort to reload. From a single bullet, sure. Per attack, no way known. You have failed to address the per attack casualties for any weapon vs the AR-15.

These shotguns are nuts, are we going to ban these?

https://www.usa-gun-shop.com/7-badass-tactical-shotguns-for-home-defense-mag-capacity/

[bbi1]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Have you ever asked yourself WHY they are a daily part of American life?

It's part of American culture, I guess. Just another day over there.

[Scott]

Let's try to limit the discussion.  For those wishing to discuss the legality/lethality of particular guns, please feel free to post in this thread:  
 

 

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Public outrage is why I focussed on AR-15's and mass shootings. That, together with the fact that children are high on the list of common targets in mass shootings. AR-15's are the preferred weapon for mass shootings. Additionally, the seriousness of the injuries is far greater than any other weapon typically used which is the MAIN basis for mass shooters choosing to use this weapon.

 

Can you admit that the death and serious injury rate is higher for AR-15's than any other available weapon on a PER ATTACK basis?

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/28/1101307932/texas-shooting-uvalde-gun-violence-children-teenagers

 

Much of the outrage stemmed from the militaristic appearance of those guns, and their ability to fire rapidly.

But there was also a more visceral reason, involving flesh and blood. AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue than the typical handgun, which is used in most shootings.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/america-s-rifle-why-so-many-people-love-ar-15-n831171

 

AR-15s Were Made to Explode Human Bodies. In Uvalde, the Bodies Belonged to Children.

Parents awaiting word on their kids were asked by police to provide DNA samples to help identify the children.

 

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/26/ar-15-uvalde-school-shooting-vietnam-war/

AR 15s are NOT "the preferred weapon for mass shootings".  According to Statista, handguns were used twice as often as ALL long guns;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

 

Not to mention that the article you posted from NBC clearly shows that handguns were used in 6,400 murders, rifles of all types less than 400.

 

According to your NPR article, only 1% of all gun deaths were caused by mass shootings. I didn't see any stats about the number of victims per attack with what particular weapon, and actually it doesn't really seem relevant. If you can find it, I would love to see it. 

 

You are exactly right that a lot of the outrage is the militaristic APPEARANCE of the guns.  They do NOT fire more rapidly than others though. A semi-auto firearm needs you to pull the trigger once for each shot. That does not magically go away if the gun looks menacing. It is all in the appearance. Do they do more damage than handguns? Yeah, depending on the handgun though.  Again I fail to see the relevance in terms of making policy. 

 

As for your Intercept article, it is more emotional nonsense. It starts with a basic faulty premise- that the AR-15 is a battlefield weapon. It is not. The M-16 is the miltary version. Does it fire a deadlier round than a 9mm pistol? Of course. It's a rifle, designed like all rifles to handle more recoil and kickback from more powerful bullets. But both will kill you easily so I am not sure why such an emotional story is relevant. The carnage would have been the same if the shooter had carried handguns. Perhaps worse, because it is easier to aim and fire a handgun in an enclosed space like a building.  

 

 

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

AR 15s are NOT "the preferred weapon for mass shootings".  According to Statista, handguns were used twice as often as ALL long guns;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

 

Not to mention that the article you posted from NBC clearly shows that handguns were used in 6,400 murders, rifles of all types less than 400.

 

According to your NPR article, only 1% of all gun deaths were caused by mass shootings. I didn't see any stats about the number of victims per attack with what particular weapon, and actually it doesn't really seem relevant. If you can find it, I would love to see it. 

 

You are exactly right that a lot of the outrage is the militaristic APPEARANCE of the guns.  They do NOT fire more rapidly than others though. A semi-auto firearm needs you to pull the trigger once for each shot. That does not magically go away if the gun looks menacing. It is all in the appearance. Do they do more damage than handguns? Yeah, depending on the handgun though.  Again I fail to see the relevance in terms of making policy. 

 

As for your Intercept article, it is more emotional nonsense. It starts with a basic faulty premise- that the AR-15 is a battlefield weapon. It is not. The M-16 is the miltary version. Does it fire a deadlier round than a 9mm pistol? Of course. It's a rifle, designed like all rifles to handle more recoil and kickback from more powerful bullets. But both will kill you easily so I am not sure why such an emotional story is relevant. The carnage would have been the same if the shooter had carried handguns. Perhaps worse, because it is easier to aim and fire a handgun in an enclosed space like a building. 

I added you to my ignore list. I challenged you to confirm or deny that AR-15's cause more deaths and injuries on a per attack basis no less than 3 times but you continue to duck the question. If you don't want to debate this in good faith, so be it.

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I added you to my ignore list. I challenged you to confirm or deny that AR-15's cause more deaths and injuries on a per attack basis no less than 3 times but you continue to duck the question. If you don't want to debate this in good faith, so be it.

Because I honestly don't know.  I can't find statistics one way or the other, can you? Of course ARs are more powerful than handguns, so it may be that each incident is worse, but why is that even relevant in the big picture?

 

Honestly it seems like a very narrow thing to focus on.  'Handguns are used more often in mass shootings, but ARs do more damage when they ARE used'.  Is that what you are getting at?  

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

These shotguns are nuts, are we going to ban these?

https://www.usa-gun-shop.com/7-badass-tactical-shotguns-for-home-defense-mag-capacity/

Of course they should be banned.  Why does anyone need a high capacity 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun?

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, heybruce said:

Of course they should be banned.  Why does anyone need a high capacity 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun?

Self defense?

 

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/8/did-you-hear-the-one-about

[nausea]

I've changed my mind. I don't think it's about guns per se, more of a mindset. At the end of the day you can get in a vehicle and mow down a ton of pedestrians; and knives, which are impossible to ban for obvious reasons, kill more people in the US than guns. Yeah, their are plenty of people who I felt intense hatred for, whether rightly or wrongly,  but societal inhibitions prevented me from acting on my fantasies. That mindset breaks down and you have big problems.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, nausea said:

I've changed my mind. I don't think it's about guns per se, more of a mindset. At the end of the day you can get in a vehicle and mow down a ton of pedestrians; and knives, which are impossible to ban for obvious reasons, kill more people in the US than guns. Yeah, their are plenty of people who I felt intense hatred for, whether rightly or wrongly,  but societal inhibitions prevented me from acting on my fantasies. That mindset breaks down and you have big problems.

You can't cure the mindset. You can only remove the means. On a per attack basis, cars and knives don't compare with an AR-15. For whatever reason, mass killings are not conducted using cars and only to a very small extent with knives. Also the chance of surviving a knife attack is probably 1,000 times greater than an AR-15 slug at short range.

Edited November 27, 2022 by ozimoron

[ozimoron]

A British teenager was on Friday sentenced to more than 11 years in prison for videos promoting racist violence that have been linked to two mass killings in the United States.

 

Judge Patrick Field called Daniel Harris, 19, "highly dangerous" and a "propagandist for an extremist right-wing ideology".

 

Prosecutors said a link was also found between Harris's videos and Anderson Lee Aldrich, 22, the sole suspect in a shooting in a gay nightclub in the US city of Colorado Springs in November 2022.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/uk-teen-jailed-for-far-right-videos-linked-to-us-killings/