Independence referendum: Scottish government loses indyref2 court case

[FritsSikkink]

On 11/24/2022 at 8:09 AM, JonnyF said:

Oh dear oh dear. Nicola won't be happy. ????

 

The correct ruling though. They already voted to stay. No need to re-run it every 5 minutes until she gets the result she wants.

They voted to stay based on promises which where all broken after the vote. Scotland should just declare independence like many countries did before them. England is scared they will lose a lot of revenue.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, James105 said:

... and if enough Scots had voted to stay in the EU, then that is where they would be right now.   

 

If it was really about the EU then the SNP would be campaigning on a platform to re-join the EU along with literally every single other party in the UK (including most Tories I would think) who also would want to rejoin the EU.   After the mess of it that the Tories have made there may even be public support for it now.   But it isn't, it's about one narcissist's fantasy to have an independent Scotland no matter what the cost is to the people that live there, knowing full well that she is wealthy enough to weather the storm.   

Somewhat patronising to suggest that half the voters in Scotland are unable to ascertain the effects of their vote, don't you think? Or do you have a unique insight alien to us Scots?

[Phulublub]

59 minutes ago, James105 said:

Out of the 3,987,112 people in Scotland who were eligible to vote in the EU ref, only 1,661,191 voted to remain in the EU.   The reason Scotland is no longer in the EU is because not enough Scots wanted to vote to remain in the EU.  

 

Only 41% of eligible Scottish voters explicitly stated they wished to remain in the EU.   The rest either explicitly stated (or implicitly stated by not voting) that they did not wish to remain in the EU.  Nobody dragged them out of anything.   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

Would that show that only 38% of the elgible voters actually voted to leave?    Even fewer of those eligible voted to leave than Scots voted to stay....once again you are talking utter nonsense.

 

PH

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The SNP was campaigning for independence long before Brexit was on the cards. It's just an excuse to try to justify another vote. If they were to get another vote and lose again, they'll simply come up with another reason to run it again.

 

Same as Brexit, sometimes the losers just won't accept they've lost. The 2014 vote was decisive. Most Scots wish to stay which is not surprising given the great deal they've been given by the government.

What great deal is that? We are obliged to give the majority of our income to the country next door and they subsequently decide how much to return to us, and how much extra to charge us for the pleasure of being governed by them. Doesn't seem that great to me.

[Phulublub]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

What great deal is that? We are obliged to give the majority of our income to the country next door and they subsequently decide how much to return to us, and how much extra to charge us for the pleasure of being governed by them. Doesn't seem that great to me.

That sounds strangely similar to quite a lot of the Brexiteer talk about Brussels takng our money and deciding how much and where to give it back.....sauce for the goose?

 

PH

[pacovl46]

21 hours ago, James105 said:

Perhaps you overlooked point 2 I made above, repeated here for your convenience:

 

2. Out of the 3,987,112 people in Scotland who were eligible to vote in the EU ref, only 1,661,191 voted to remain in the EU.   The reason Scotland is no longer in the EU is because not enough Scots wanted to vote to remain in the EU.  

 

They had a vote 8 years ago to leave the UK with the full awareness that the EU referendum would be coming afterwards.   Not even half of Scotlands eligible voters voted to remain in the EU.  They need to grow up and stop behaving like Trump does after a vote not going their way.   

You seem to operate under the assumption that all eligible voters did vote, which they didnt!!! Just because some of them didn't vote doesn't autimatically mean that they were for leaving the EU. They just couldn't be bothered or they didn't care enough. And again, of the people that DID vote, the MAJORITY in EVERY council in Scotland voted FOR remaining in the EU! 

Edited November 28, 2022 by pacovl46

[James105]

3 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

You seem to operate under the assumption that all eligible voters did vote, which they didnt!!! Just because some of them didn't vote doesn't autimatically mean that they were for leaving the EU. They just couldn't be bothered or they didn't care enough. And again, of the people that DID vote, the MAJORITY in EVERY council in Scotland voted FOR remaining in the EU! 

So 1,018,322 people in Scotland voted to leave.   Then (in your words) another 1.3 million "just couldn't be bothered or they didn't care enough".   So the MAJORITY in  Scotland are not being dragged out of the EU against their will, are they?   It's only 1.6 million.  The rest either explicitly voted to leave or "didn't care enough".   

 

You might want to look up how referendums work as it's based on individual voters, not councils.  

[RuamRudy]

17 hours ago, Phulublub said:

That sounds strangely similar to quite a lot of the Brexiteer talk about Brussels takng our money and deciding how much and where to give it back.....sauce for the goose?

 

PH

Sauce for the goose? Scotland isn't the EU - and the EU did not receive 90ish% of the UK income and return what it saw fit.

[JonnyF]

26 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Sauce for the goose? Scotland isn't the EU - and the EU did not receive 90ish% of the UK income and return what it saw fit.

Well the EU isn't a country. Yet...

 

If you were to gain Independence (which you won't) you'd soon find out what a great deal you get as part of the UK. Let's see what Brussels offers you, if they even allowed you into their failing federalist project. You think little old Scotland would have a seat at the top table? You think the EU would be throwing money at you?

 

BTW, why would you want to leave your biggest trading partner who also happens to be your next door neighbour? It's like you want to apply economic sanctions on yourself or something. Nobody in Scotland is voting to be poorer. You think all immigration will stop if you leave the UK? Don't let the racist little nationalists ruin your country for some failed ideology. Hmmm, those arguments sound somewhat familiar, no?

 

Sauce for the goose indeed.

[RuamRudy]

28 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Well the EU isn't a country. Yet...

 

If you were to gain Independence (which you won't) you'd soon find out what a great deal you get as part of the UK. Let's see what Brussels offers you, if they even allowed you into their failing federalist project. You think little old Scotland would have a seat at the top table? You think the EU would be throwing money at you?

 

BTW, why would you want to leave your biggest trading partner who also happens to be your next door neighbour? It's like you want to apply economic sanctions on yourself or something. Nobody in Scotland is voting to be poorer. You think all immigration will stop if you leave the UK? Don't let the racist little nationalists ruin your country for some failed ideology. Hmmm, those arguments sound somewhat familiar, no?

 

Sauce for the goose indeed.

Which racist nationalists are you referring to? Can you have them? As someone who has supported independence my entire adult life, are you including me in that category?

 

Why do you think that independence means no trade between Scotland and England? Where will those English companies which do significant trade with Scotland find alternative customers?

 

What about the current net transfer of commodities such as hydrocarbons and electricity? How would England replace those?

 

And water? England is already experiencing increased drought events and expected to require to import water within the decade. If you don't want to buy it from your nearest neighbour, you better get those divining rods out.

[MRToMRT]

If you love them then let them go.

 

 

[JonnyF]

41 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Which racist nationalists are you referring to? Can you have them? As someone who has supported independence my entire adult life, are you including me in that category?

 

Why do you think that independence means no trade between Scotland and England? Where will those English companies which do significant trade with Scotland find alternative customers?

 

What about the current net transfer of commodities such as hydrocarbons and electricity? How would England replace those?

 

And water? England is already experiencing increased drought events and expected to require to import water within the decade. If you don't want to buy it from your nearest neighbour, you better get those divining rods out.

My point clearly went over your head.

 

Every economic argument the Remainers made for staying in the EU could be applied to Scotland staying in the UK. Every accusation/insult that was thrown at Brexiteers for wanting to be Independent of the EU could be thrown at Scottish nationalists.

 

Fortunately for you, you've got no chance of leaving. If you did, you'd be in dire straits. You wouldn't even have a currency unless you wanted to have your economic policy set by the BOE. It would be a decade before the EU threw you a bone in the form of a terrible deal to join them. It's a fantasy peddled by a power hungry charlatan in the form of Sturgeon. Unicorn stuff. Sunny uplands? Hardly...

[hotandsticky]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

My point clearly went over your head.

 

Every economic argument the Remainers made for staying in the EU could be applied to Scotland staying in the UK. Every accusation/insult that was thrown at Brexiteers for wanting to be Independent of the EU could be thrown at Scottish nationalists.

 

Fortunately for you, you've got no chance of leaving. If you did, you'd be in dire straits. You wouldn't even have a currency unless you wanted to have your economic policy set by the BOE. It would be a decade before the EU threw you a bone in the form of a terrible deal to join them. It's a fantasy peddled by a power hungry charlatan in the form of Sturgeon. Unicorn stuff. Sunny uplands? Hardly...

 

 

They would be OK with independence if the English were allowed to vote............????

Edited November 29, 2022 by hotandsticky

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

They would be OK with independence if the English were allowed to vote............????

I honestly believe that if they allowed the English to vote they'd be out in the cold before their feet could touch the ground.

 

However, that wouldn't really be fair on the majority of Scots who wish to remain in the union.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I honestly believe that if they allowed the English to vote they'd be out in the cold before their feet could touch the ground.

 

However, that wouldn't really be fair on the majority of Scots who wish to remain in the union.

The bottom line is that the Scottish want in the EU OR out of the UK. They no longer trust the English to take cognisance of their wishes. The English are acting in their own interests, largely poisoned by gaslighting from the right wing.

[JonnyF]

59 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The bottom line is that the Scottish want in the EU OR out of the UK. They no longer trust the English to take cognisance of their wishes. The English are acting in their own interests, largely poisoned by gaslighting from the right wing.

Good to know that you speak on behalf of the Scottish population. ????

 

Last time they went to the polls, they very clearly decided to stay. They know which side their bread is buttered.

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

My point clearly went over your head.

 

Every economic argument the Remainers made for staying in the EU could be applied to Scotland staying in the UK. Every accusation/insult that was thrown at Brexiteers for wanting to be Independent of the EU could be thrown at Scottish nationalists.

 

Fortunately for you, you've got no chance of leaving. If you did, you'd be in dire straits. You wouldn't even have a currency unless you wanted to have your economic policy set by the BOE. It would be a decade before the EU threw you a bone in the form of a terrible deal to join them. It's a fantasy peddled by a power hungry charlatan in the form of Sturgeon. Unicorn stuff. Sunny uplands? Hardly...

We do have a currency - the pound sterling. It belongs to the UK, which will cease to exist if we depart it. But who do you think sets our monetary policy now? Do you think that Threadneedle St's current thinking has much of a Scottish slant, and that independence will see a radical change? That said, I think I would prefer we went full tilt towards the euro - a bit of stability would be preferable to remaining hitched to a sinking ship.

 

But you never addressed a single point I raised - mainly how would England replace the loss of trade you insist will occur. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I honestly believe that if they allowed the English to vote they'd be out in the cold before their feet could touch the ground.

Why? Are the English anti-Scottish?

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Good to know that you speak on behalf of the Scottish population. ????

 

Last time they went to the polls, they very clearly decided to stay. They know which side their bread is buttered.

I wouldn't be so self congratulatory if I were you. The 2014 vote was less of an endorsement of our relationship with England and more a fear of the unknown. Most people recognise that the Union is corrupt and has served Scotland badly since day 1. We just need to spell out the case for independence better - and thankfully the last 8 years of Tory incompetence and corruption plus the disaster of brexit has helped on that front.

 

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

We do have a currency - the pound sterling. It belongs to the UK, which will cease to exist if we depart it.

The UK would still exist. England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Did the EU cease to exist after the UK left? No, unfortunately not....

 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

But who do you think sets our monetary policy now? Do you think that Threadneedle St's current thinking has much of a Scottish slant, and that independence will see a radical change?

Of course Scotland is considered now. If you left, not so much...

 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

That said, I think I would prefer we went full tilt towards the euro - a bit of stability would be preferable to remaining hitched to a sinking ship.

Sinking ship? Oh really? The pound is exactly where it was against the Euro 5 years ago. And indeed 10 years ago. 

 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But you never addressed a single point I raised - mainly how would England replace the loss of trade you insist will occur. 

Scotland is far more dependent on trade with the rest of the UK than the UK is dependent on trade with Scotland. We have done over 70 trade deals since Brexit. You will lose those when you leave, including the one with your intended saviour, the EU. But hey, you know what you'd be voting for (if it ever happened, which it won't).

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Why? Are the English anti-Scottish?

Not at all. Just getting sick of all the whining and bad sentiment from Sturgeon and her band of nationalist extremists.

[JonnyF]

35 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

We just need to spell out the case for independence better

On that we can agree. The SNP could do a lot of things better, hiding their anti English sentiment would be a good start.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-branch-forced-apologise-nasty-26164493

[DezLez]

42 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Not at all. Just getting sick of all the whining and bad sentiment from Sturgeon and her band of nationalist extremists.

I think I would substitute extreme labour and or communist for "nationalist" in the above.

 

[RuamRudy]

42 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Not at all. Just getting sick of all the whining and bad sentiment from Sturgeon and her band of nationalist extremists.

But you see this thread is full of:

 

1) accusations of independence supporters being anti English with nothing to back that up;

2) posts which are genuinely anti Scottish. 

 

Personally, I am sick of the hypocrisy of those who claim Indy Scots are anti English yet their posts reek of anti Scottish sentiment.

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

On that we can agree. The SNP could do a lot of things better, hiding their anti English sentiment would be a good start.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-branch-forced-apologise-nasty-26164493

The Express? Sigh...

[RayC]

Couple of good - albeit long and dry articles - about the economic effects of devolution and independence:

 

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/how-might-scottish-independence-affect-the-costs-of-international-trade

 

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/scotlands-contribution-to-the-uks-economy-wellbeing-and-quality-of-life/

[metisdead]

Troll posts using trolling memes have been reported and removed.

[Phulublub]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

BTW, why would you want to leave your biggest trading partner who also happens to be your next door neighbour? It's like you want to apply economic sanctions on yourself or something.

I have no idea.  Best ask some Brexiteers...

 

PH

[Phulublub]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Every economic argument the Remainers made for staying in the EU could be applied to Scotland staying in the UK. Every accusation/insult that was thrown at Brexiteers for wanting to be Independent of the EU could be thrown at Scottish nationalists.

 

Not quite. 

 

In 2014 those were exactly the arguments I (and others) were making to stay in the UK.  And there were enough of us, perhaps, to sway the vote to stay in the UK. 

 

Move on to 2016 and those were exactly the arguments I (and others) were making for staying in the EU.  My arguments did not change one bit for either vote. 

 

A significant number who voted in 2014 because of these reasons, now see the disaster that they foresaw coming to pass and would rather throw their lot in with Europe than with England.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I honestly believe that if they allowed the English to vote they'd be out in the cold before their feet could touch the ground.

 

However, that wouldn't really be fair on the majority of Scots who wish to remain in the union.

If the majority of Scots wish to stay in the Union, then why are you so afraid to give them a vote on the matter? 

 

Ph