Covid is rife in China as the tourists set off !

[TorquayFan]

More than half of passengers on a flight from China to Italy have tested positive for COVID-19 - as China prepares to open up its borders despite a huge surge in infections. Two flights into Milan were among the first to see passengers subjected to new mandatory testing imposed on Chinese travellers. Guido Bertolaso, Lombardy regional councillor for welfare, told a news conference: "On the first flight, out of 92 passengers 35 (38%) are positive. On the second, out of 120 passengers 62 (52%) are positive."

 

On Wednesday evening the US became the fifth country to impose restrictions on Chinese travellers - as China prepares to issue ordinary passports and visas in a huge step away from COVID measures that have isolated the country for nearly three years.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-patients-no-longer-have-to-quarantine-in-hong-kong-as-restrictions-are-lifted-1277549

 

China has a particular problem (again) and it makes sense, at the very least, to require a covid check before departure.

 

No mention of which variant is running riot over there ? Omicron I guess.

 

Well done Italy, Japan and all - I would like to see the UK (and Thailand) take measures too. Like NOW !

 

[gargamon]

Most of the current Chinese travelers will have some Omicron variant which is relatively mild. The big concern is that with no more lockdowns in China, the likelyhood of new variants developing there is somewhat high. This is why the US and others are requiring pre-flight tests before allowing travel.

[save the frogs]

here we go with the "statistics" all over again.

 

[ozimoron]

Chinese hospitals are totally overwhelmed judging by the news reports. The single difference between them and the west is that the Chinese don't have effective vaccines which prevent major illness. It's all the evidence anyone needs to prove that proper vaccines work to prevent serious illness. Even as it is, omicron is still a major issue for many western countries in terms of hospitalisations.

[TorquayFan]

Gargamon yes of course. Each variant has so far evolved milder with Omicron being more flu like now. But something worse might arrive and then its back to the horrors of lockdowns and so on. No thanks - IMO shut the border to China, for now at least.

 

Ozi re. Sinopharm and Sinovac - I dont think China vaccinated widely enough and maybe missed some age groups. If they havent boosted along the way, immunity could have waned. China certainly seems to be struggling with Covid atm.

[pgrahmm]

Half assed measures at best....

With everyone in flight breathing the same air hours upon hours, a few people from every outbound flight around the world can restart this pandemic again....

China knows exactly what they are doing as they basically got away without any organized response/consequences the first time around ....

 

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, gargamon said:

Most of the current Chinese travelers will have some Omicron variant which is relatively mild. The big concern is that with no more lockdowns in China, the likelyhood of new variants developing there is somewhat high. This is why the US and others are requiring pre-flight tests before allowing travel.

Maybe "relatively mild" because in most of the world people have either been vaccinated or infected or both. Not so much the case in China. 

 

China's emergency services 'overwhelmed' as COVID-19 wave sweeps country

As China grapples with its first-ever national COVID-19 wave, emergency wards in small cities and towns southwest of Beijing are stunned as they attempt to reel with the massive influx of critical cases. 

Emergency rooms are turning away ambulances, relatives of sick people are searching for open beds, and patients are slumped on benches in hospital corridors and lying on floors for lack of beds.

In more than three decades of emergency medicine, Beijing-based doctor Howard Bernstein said, he has never seen anything like this.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/12/26/chinas-emergency-services-overwhelmed-as-covid-19-wave-sweeps-country

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Chinese hospitals are totally overwhelmed judging by the news reports. The single difference between them and the west is that the Chinese don't have effective vaccines which prevent major illness. It's all the evidence anyone needs to prove that proper vaccines work to prevent serious illness. Even as it is, omicron is still a major issue for many western countries in terms of hospitalisations.

Why havent China been able to develop a Covid vaccine that is on par to Western vaccines ?

[internationalism]

There are very few tourists from china to europe or usa, as it's a winter time. Majority are also not in mood to travel just for leisure now. 

I would think they are businessmen, traders, students, also family visits. So they have a real purpose to travel now, after almost 3 years border lock down. 
As chinese new year is in a week time, those travellers took extended leave. 

Some more wealthy are trying to escape wave of infections in china. Possibly to also get vaccinated with mrna, which suppose to be more effective, but not widely available in china. 

[TorquayFan]

Mick - China developed "inactivated virus" traditional type vaccines and IMO its very hard to judge or conclude that their Sinopharm/Sinovac is inferior to the MRNA and the viral vector (AZ) vaccines. Data is scarce but we certainly know that China injected some sectors of the population and not others. Also they relied excessively on lockdowns and we dont know if they gave boosters. The massive wave in China now is probably due to the population not having acquiring natural immunity so far.

 

Inter - that is interesting but surely, whatever the motives for the Chinese coming now, maybe 50% of the Chinese arriving are going to bring omicron or a new variant into Thailand. IMO a test before boarding and again after 2 days quarantine after arrival. Maybe just for a few weeks until we know more about what is happening in China.

[Eleftheros]

Predictably enough, Chinese state media now says that anyone picking out Chinese travellers for tests is 'discriminatory'.

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/covid-19-travel-curbs-against-chinese-visitors-discriminatory-state-media-3174486

 

For brass neck, that gets win, place and show.

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Mick - China developed "inactivated virus" traditional type vaccines and IMO its very hard to judge or conclude that their Sinopharm/Sinovac is inferior to the MRNA and the viral vector (AZ) vaccines. Data is scarce but we certainly know that China injected some sectors of the population and not others. Also they relied excessively on lockdowns and we dont know if they gave boosters. The massive wave in China now is probably due to the population not having acquiring natural immunity so far.

 

Inter - that is interesting but surely, whatever the motives for the Chinese coming now, maybe 50% of the Chinese arriving are going to bring omicron or a new variant into Thailand. IMO a test before boarding and again after 2 days quarantine after arrival. Maybe just for a few weeks until we know more about what is happening in China.

Not so hard. There were plenty of studies done when the Chinese vaccines were being widely used in countries outside China. It was effective against transmission and against hospitalization and death. Just not as effective as the mRNA vaccines or the Astra-Zeneca vaccine.

[TorquayFan]

Thanks PlaceH. So thats that then. Or not.

 

Except - "It was effective against transmission and against hospitalization and death."

 

That sounds bl**dy great to me.

 

But what about the yellow cards ?

Edited December 30, 2022 by TorquayFan

[placeholder]

41 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks PlaceH. So thats that then. Or not.

 

Except - "It was effective against transmission and against hospitalization and death."

 

That sounds bl**dy great to me.

 

But what about the yellow cards ?

What about the yellow cards? What does the British Health system have to do with this? Sinovac and Sinopharm weren't used in the UK. And even if they were, yellow cards are useless for determining effectiveness.

[TorquayFan]

Thanks for the reply PlaceH but there were 500,000 yellow cards in the UK about potentially resultant events and that is quite a lot of complaints and that is relevant to the discussion of the merits of Chinese, traditional vaccines, in comparison to MRNA.

 

My 3rd vax after an aspirated 50% Moderna gave me 12 hours feeling really bad with stress between my shoulders, (aorta), reminiscent of 6 hours at 200 bph I spent in 2013.

 

Off course, we cant compare the Chinese vax re. yellow cards as they dont have that freedom in China.

 

There are no sides in this, let us just get to the truth - whatever it is.

 

The well lauded AZ vaccine, which seems now to have absented the scene totally now - is gone without a ripple. Explanations? Admissions?

[placeholder]

56 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks for the reply PlaceH but there were 500,000 yellow cards in the UK about potentially resultant events and that is quite a lot of complaints and that is relevant to the discussion of the merits of Chinese, traditional vaccines, in comparison to MRNA.

 

My 3rd vax after an aspirated 50% Moderna gave me 12 hours feeling really bad with stress between my shoulders, (aorta), reminiscent of 6 hours at 200 bph I spent in 2013.

 

Off course, we cant compare the Chinese vax re. yellow cards as they dont have that freedom in China.

 

There are no sides in this, let us just get to the truth - whatever it is.

 

The well lauded AZ vaccine, which seems now to have absented the scene totally now - is gone without a ripple. Explanations? Admissions?

No it isn't. For lots of reasons. For starters, yellow cards aren't useful for determining causation, They are reports of events. Given the politicization of the covid-19 and the controversy, it's not surprising that there were more reports of adverse events. NOT adverse effects. But even if they could have evidentiary value, what kind of value could they have with data drawn from a population that never used them?

Saying we need to get to the truth when we already have overwhelming evidence is just a way of trying to sound reasonable while pushing an agenda that is anything but.

Astra Zeneca is a good vaccine but it had a higher rate of effects judged to be adverse than did the mRNA vaccines. Certainly, it was far better to be vaccinated with it than to go unvaccinated.

[TorquayFan]

PlaceH I am not pushing an agenda - just wanting to know more.

 

Yellow cards - of course they are just indicators and thats why they are counted. The numbers can point to a possible problem. Its the facts behind the trends that we need to know. Where are they?

 

Its hard not to notice in these discussions, that the excess heart deaths never seem to be explained. With respect, as if, its all wonderful so shut up and lets go with it.

 

MMMmmmmm

 

 

 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

PlaceH I am not pushing an agenda - just wanting to know more.

 

Yellow cards - of course they are just indicators and thats why they are counted. The numbers can point to a possible problem. Its the facts behind the trends that we need to know. Where are they?

 

Its hard not to notice in these discussions, that the excess heart deaths never seem to be explained. With respect, as if, its all wonderful so shut up and lets go with it.

 

MMMmmmmm

How are yellow card useful in determing the effectiveness of the Chinese vaccines vs. other vaccines. What don't you get about the significance of the fact that chinese vaccines were never used in the UK?

Yes, yellow cards can point to a possible problem. But in themselves are proof of nothing.

And excess coronary deaths have been discussed both figuratively and literaally to death. As epidemiologist repeatedly point out, the risk of heart problems occurring is far greater from covid than from vaccinations with the exception of young men. And even then the risk is very small. You can look this stuff up, you know.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

PlaceH I am not pushing an agenda - just wanting to know more.

 

Yellow cards - of course they are just indicators and thats why they are counted. The numbers can point to a possible problem. Its the facts behind the trends that we need to know. Where are they?

 

Its hard not to notice in these discussions, that the excess heart deaths never seem to be explained. With respect, as if, its all wonderful so shut up and lets go with it.

 

MMMmmmmm

 

 

 

If you want to know more why not go to the source rather than take the word of dodgy websites or a certain UK MP who has already been fact checked?

 

For a mass vaccination campaign of near on the whole UK population its hardly surprising that more people are reporting the most common symptoms of immunization.

 

"reports relate to injection-site reactions (sore arm for example) and generalised symptoms such as ‘flu-like’ illness, headache, chills, fatigue (tiredness), nausea (feeling sick), fever, dizziness, weakness, aching muscles, and rapid heartbeat. Generally, these happen shortly after the vaccination and are not associated with more serious or lasting illness.

These types of reactions reflect the normal immune response triggered by the body to the vaccines."

 

If you really want to dig in the data is there, follow the links in the article.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data

[TorquayFan]

PlaceH - re your last. Thats not what I said. about China. I was making the point that the UK has had a lot of yellow cards (x?) but that we cant compare to China, because we dont have that data from them. But moving on, I would suggest theres a good chance that "inactivated virus" vaccines are quite likely to be less harmful.

 

Brian - thanks for the links.

[248900_1469958220]

Most of us, including me have had Covid at least twice....When is this silly season going to end? By the way, I had Sinovac as I was forced to take SOMETHING for my job....I wanted to avoid mrna jabs. I was about as sick as everyone else I know that had other shots....that is I HAD A COLD AND SO DID THEY. I was over it in about 5 days. 

 

Natural immunity.....dont poo poo it till you got it! 

[placeholder]

38 minutes ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

Most of us, including me have had Covid at least twice....When is this silly season going to end? By the way, I had Sinovac as I was forced to take SOMETHING for my job....I wanted to avoid mrna jabs. I was about as sick as everyone else I know that had other shots....that is I HAD A COLD AND SO DID THEY. I was over it in about 5 days. 

 

Natural immunity.....dont poo poo it till you got it! 

Chinese hospital staff are laughing themselves silly.

 

COVID-19 wave rolls through China, overwhelming hospitals outside Beijing

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/covid-19-wave-rolls-through-china-overwhelming-hospitals-outside-beijing

[ozimoron]

On 12/30/2022 at 7:41 PM, TorquayFan said:

Thanks PlaceH. So thats that then. Or not.

 

Except - "It was effective against transmission and against hospitalization and death."

 

That sounds bl**dy great to me.

 

But what about the yellow cards ?

I guess you missed Sheryl's comment. This debate should be over but for the anti-vax zealots.

[placeholder]

On 12/30/2022 at 7:41 PM, TorquayFan said:

Thanks PlaceH. So thats that then. Or not.

 

Except - "It was effective against transmission and against hospitalization and death."

 

That sounds bl**dy great to me.

 

But what about the yellow cards ?

What is so hard to understand about yellow cards? After someone gets vaccinated, they or their health care provider can report any health incident that arises.  These are reported as "adverse events". They are not reported as "adverse effects."  People get ill all the time. Are all subsequent illnesses reported after a covid vaccination caused by that vaccination? That's where medical statisticians come in. They compare the rate of illness of those vaccinated to a baseline of what the rates of illness were before vaccinations began and also to the unvaccinated. If there's a discrepancy, it's their job to spot it.

 

And why is it so hard for you to understand that since the Chinese vaccines were never used in the UK, yellow cards have absolutely no relevance in determining either the effectiveness of those vaccines or other consequences of being vaccinated with them?

[TorquayFan]

Place H please re-read my post : "Thats not what I said. about China. I was making the point that the UK has had a lot of yellow cards (x?) but that we cant compare to China, because we dont have that (yellow card) data from them."

 

I understand yellow cards - Im just saying, 500,000 is a LOT, leaving aside claims that unreported events might increase that figure dramatically.

 

BFN

[kwilco]

Not just China,It's the same in the UK and elsewhere..... - the Covid and flu admissions are way up on last year to the point that emergency services are almost collapsing.

 

[placeholder]

On 1/2/2023 at 7:43 AM, TorquayFan said:

Place H please re-read my post : "Thats not what I said. about China. I was making the point that the UK has had a lot of yellow cards (x?) but that we cant compare to China, because we dont have that (yellow card) data from them."

 

I understand yellow cards - Im just saying, 500,000 is a LOT, leaving aside claims that unreported events might increase that figure dramatically.

 

BFN

Even if I concede that 500,000 yellow cards is a lot, so what? They don't mean anything without comparing them to actual illnesses. To see if there's a rise in various symptoms among the population for different adverse events.. If there isn't a statistically significant difference, then those yellow card reports can be ignored.