15 minutes ago, sharksy said:

When Ukraine liberated Kherson, the locals welcomed the troops as heros.

This isn't neccessary happening everywhere, such as the current big battleground at Bakhmut.

The war is a lot more complicated than many think.

BTW, I'm not supporting Russia, just making a point.

Russia invaded a sovereign nation that has chosen democracy and independence over being a puppet nation of fascist Russia or potentially not existing at all. That's not complicated.

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Russia invaded a sovereign nation that has chosen democracy and independence over being a puppet nation of fascist Russia or potentially not existing at all. That's not complicated.

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

8 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

You sound like someone that has fallen for the propaganda that Russian speaking Ukrainian equals pro Putin. Nothing could be further from the truth. If some areas of Ukraine eventually want to break away, that is not OK without buy in from the central government the same as with any other sovereign nation. That's not done with invasions and fake referendums if such actions are ever going to legal or recognized internationally. 

Edited February 15, 20233 yr by Jingthing

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You sound like someone that has fallen for the propaganda that Russian speaking Ukrainian means pro Putin. Nothing could be further from the truth. If some areas of Ukraine eventually want to break away, that is not OK without buy in from the central government the same as with any other sovereign nation. 

I feel like you are trolling me somewhat here - I already stated I do not support Russia.

 

I suppose I should have posted a link in my original post referring to the fact to which I was trying to convey, in as much as nothing is really black + white.

I can't find the Guardian article i read recently, but read the wikipedia entry under "Background" section to illustrate what I was alluding to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bakhmut

 

4 minutes ago, sharksy said:

I feel like you are trolling me somewhat here - I already stated I do not support Russia.

 

I suppose I should have posted a link in my original post referring to the fact to which I was trying to convey, in as much as nothing is really black + white.

I can't find the Guardian article i read recently, but read the wikipedia entry under "Background" section to illustrate what I was alluding to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bakhmut

 

Ukraine's defense against the Russian aggressor IS as black and white a war as you're ever going to find. Most recent wars haven't been. This one is.

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Ukraine's defense against the Russian aggressor IS as black and white a war as you're ever going to find. Most recent wars haven't been. This one is.

Do you realise that the war in the Donbas didn't start last year?  It started many years ago.  You do realise that Ukraine were shelling their own people in the Donbas region going back many years, closing down local TV stations etc.  Just sayin

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Russia invaded a sovereign nation that has chosen democracy and independence over being a puppet nation of fascist Russia or potentially not existing at all. That's not complicated.

It's a funny old world.  Isn't there a similarlity between Israel and Russia both stealing land?  When one does it, nothing gets done about it, but the other.....

 

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

Are you quoting hitlers propaganda minister Goebbels sounds just like the tripe he was spreading prior to the invasion of chelsovikia(I know I miss spelled it) to protect the German speaking people no body’s buying it anymore 

37 minutes ago, Tug said:

Are you quoting hitlers propaganda minister Goebbels sounds just like the tripe he was spreading prior to the invasion of chelsovikia(I know I miss spelled it) to protect the German speaking people no body’s buying it anymore 

Not at all, my own words.  I'm unaware of what you mention above.

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

Do you realise that the war in the Donbas didn't start last year?  It started many years ago.  You do realise that Ukraine were shelling their own people in the Donbas region going back many years, closing down local TV stations etc.  Just sayin

Sounds like you've been watching too much RT News. That's far from the reality of what happened since 2014. There was shelling from both sides, government controlled areas and the Russian backed separatist areas. The Minsk agreement failed because Russia would not recognize it.

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Sounds like you've been watching too much RT News. That's far from the reality of what happened since 2014. There was shelling from both sides, government controlled areas and the Russian backed separatist areas. The Minsk agreement failed because Russia would not recognize it.

Not an RT watcher here. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm simply flagging up that it's never really 100% one sides fault, 0% the other.

 

The Minsk agreement failed because of the separatists:-

 

"In late October, DPR prime minister and Minsk Protocol signatory Alexander Zakharchenko said that his forces would retake the territory they had lost to Ukrainian forces during a July 2014 offensive, and that DPR forces would be willing to wage "heavy battles" to do so"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements#:~:text=The Minsk agreements were a,forces playing a central part.

 

 

 

https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Donbas_War

 

3 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Not an RT watcher here. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm simply flagging up that it's never really 100% one sides fault, 0% the other.

 

The Minsk agreement failed because of the separatists:-

 

"In late October, DPR prime minister and Minsk Protocol signatory Alexander Zakharchenko said that his forces would retake the territory they had lost to Ukrainian forces during a July 2014 offensive, and that DPR forces would be willing to wage "heavy battles" to do so"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements#:~:text=The Minsk agreements were a,forces playing a central part.

 

 

 

https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Donbas_War

 

Your message was the same tired one used by Russian & Putin propagandists. That Ukraine has been shelling its own people, when the reality is far from that.

 

As for Minsk:

A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/what-is-the-minsk-agreement-and-why-is-it-relevant-now

On 2/13/2023 at 5:25 AM, Mickeymaus said:

Pictures like this show how stupid humans can be.

What makes you think they are humans? Putin will throw every man, woman, and child in front of him to take over Ukraine.

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Your message was the same tired one used by Russian & Putin propagandists. That Ukraine has been shelling its own people, when the reality is far from that.

 

As for Minsk:

A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/what-is-the-minsk-agreement-and-why-is-it-relevant-now

I usually enjoy reading your posts, but you are labelling me wrongly.   I'm actually surprised you are quoting Aljazeera who are slightly pro-russian.

 

Regarding the shelling:

"On Friday, 11 July, two days before the shelling, 36–37 Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a Grad rocket bombardment.^[5][6] In response, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced that for "every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own."^[1]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Donetsk,_Russia

 

 

You do realise that there were 2 Minsk agreements (different dates).

Minsk1 was about peace between the Ukraine Government and the 2 separitist groups - but much wasn't implimented, hence a Minsk2 was necessary.

Minsk2 was about withdrawing any heavy weapons, Russia claimed it didn't have any, so the agreement didn't apply to them.

 

 

16 minutes ago, sharksy said:

I usually enjoy reading your posts, but you are labelling me wrongly.   I'm actually surprised you are quoting Aljazeera who are slightly pro-russian.

 

Regarding the shelling:

"On Friday, 11 July, two days before the shelling, 36–37 Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a Grad rocket bombardment.^[5][6] In response, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced that for "every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own."^[1]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Donetsk,_Russia

 

 

You do realise that there were 2 Minsk agreements (different dates).

Minsk1 was about peace between the Ukraine Government and the 2 separitist groups - but much wasn't implimented, hence a Minsk2 was necessary.

Minsk2 was about withdrawing any heavy weapons, Russia claimed it didn't have any, so the agreement didn't apply to them.

 

 

Lets not deflect the source of the facts in the article I quoted. Yes I do realize there are 2 Minsk's, that fact is also in the article I linked to if you had read it, as well as realize that your previous statement on Ukraine shelling its own population was misleading. For some further facts on that then look no further than the UN official figures since 2014 from both sides of the conflict:

 

 

https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related civilian casualties as of 31 December 2021 (rev 27 January 2022) corr EN_0.pdf

 

Note these are civilian deaths from both sides.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by Bkk Brian

4 hours ago, sharksy said:

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

Should Chechnya be allowed to break away and become another country?  They tried it once, Russia did not respond well.

 

Should Russian Manchurian be allowed to break away and join China?  If the people there expressed a desire to do so, would you be ok with China invading the area to liberate them?

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Should Chechnya be allowed to break away and become another country?  They tried it once, Russia did not respond well.

 

Should Russian Manchurian be allowed to break away and join China?  If the people there expressed a desire to do so, would you be ok with China invading the area to liberate them?

Absolutely! - In an ideal world.  Unfortunately, we don't live in that.

 

1 hour ago, sharksy said:

I usually enjoy reading your posts, but you are labelling me wrongly.   I'm actually surprised you are quoting Aljazeera who are slightly pro-russian.

 

Regarding the shelling:

"On Friday, 11 July, two days before the shelling, 36–37 Ukrainian soldiers were killed in a Grad rocket bombardment.^[5][6] In response, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced that for "every soldier's life, the militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of their own."^[1]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Donetsk,_Russia

 

 

You do realise that there were 2 Minsk agreements (different dates).

Minsk1 was about peace between the Ukraine Government and the 2 separitist groups - but much wasn't implimented, hence a Minsk2 was necessary.

Minsk2 was about withdrawing any heavy weapons, Russia claimed it didn't have any, so the agreement didn't apply to them.

 

 

Minsk 2 was about a lot more than heavy weapons. Just on the military aspect it also stipulated that all foreign soldiers and mercenaries withdraw from the territory. Also, illegal groups had to disarm.

Edited February 16, 20233 yr by placeholder

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

Absolutely! - In an ideal world.  Unfortunately, we don't live in that.

Then instead of invading its neighbors Russia should get its house in order and grant independence to those regions where a majority want independence.

7 hours ago, sharksy said:

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

You sure about that?

What Next for Ukraine’s Formerly Pro-Russian Regions?

"Russia’s invasion largely put an end to this pro-Russian sentiment: by May 2022, only 4 percent in Ukraine’s east and 1 percent in the south still had a positive view of Russia. Support for Ukraine joining NATO, on the other hand, had surged to record highs: 69 percent in the east and 81 percent in the south, up from 36 percent in the east and 48 percent in the south, according to a poll taken on February 16 and 17 of this year...

Sixty-eight percent of respondents from the south and 53 percent from the east now describe Ukrainian as their native language, though 49 percent of people in the south and 47 percent in the east still said they used both Ukrainian and Russian in their everyday life."

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88542

 

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

You sure about that?

What Next for Ukraine’s Formerly Pro-Russian Regions?

"Russia’s invasion largely put an end to this pro-Russian sentiment: by May 2022, only 4 percent in Ukraine’s east and 1 percent in the south still had a positive view of Russia. Support for Ukraine joining NATO, on the other hand, had surged to record highs: 69 percent in the east and 81 percent in the south, up from 36 percent in the east and 48 percent in the south, according to a poll taken on February 16 and 17 of this year...

Sixty-eight percent of respondents from the south and 53 percent from the east now describe Ukrainian as their native language, though 49 percent of people in the south and 47 percent in the east still said they used both Ukrainian and Russian in their everyday life."

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88542

 

Good article, I've read similar to this recently too. 

There was a Guardian article(can't find it) I read that residents in Bakhmut did not welcome Ukrainian troops, unlike, for example Kherson.  This is not general knowledge, maybe the article was later pulled as it was not what people want to read?

7 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Good article, I've read similar to this recently too. 

There was a Guardian article(can't find it) I read that residents in Bakhmut did not welcome Ukrainian troops, unlike, for example Kherson.  This is not general knowledge, maybe the article was later pulled as it was not what people want to read?

Maybe all of the pro-Russian 4% lives in Bakhmut.

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Maybe all of the pro-Russian 4% lives in Bakhmut.

Here is a map for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

It is from 2001, which I guess was the last time a census was done, maybe there is more "blue" areas since then.

 

Just now, sharksy said:

Here is a map for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

It is from 2001, which I guess was the last time a census was done, maybe there is more "blue" areas since then.

 

 My comment about the all the pro-Russians being in Bakhmut was a way of expressing my skepticism of your claim.

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 My comment about the all the pro-Russians being in Bakhmut was a way of expressing my skepticism of your claim.

Skepticism is fine, but at try and back it up with some facts.  Remember, the first victim of war - is the truth.

Seems a lot of the pro Russians in Bakhmut have switched sides and are fighting for Ukraine............

 

Hundreds of Russians are fighting on the side of Ukraine in the battle for Bakhmut, The New York Times reported.

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Seems a lot of the pro Russians in Bakhmut have switched sides and are fighting for Ukraine............

 

Hundreds of Russians are fighting on the side of Ukraine in the battle for Bakhmut, The New York Times reported.

I believe Bakhmut was 80% Russian speakers, so no doubt there will be 100s fighting for Ukraine.  But that leaves the majority who are not.  The gist of my post was that Ukrainians weren't met as heros when they initially liberated the area, in the same way they were in the southern Kherson.

It seems that a couple of posters would rather call me a Russian sympathiser than recognise the actual point I am making.  This will be my last post about this on this thread

4 minutes ago, sharksy said:

I believe Bakhmut was 80% Russian speakers, so no doubt there will be 100s fighting for Ukraine.  But that leaves the majority who are not.  The gist of my post was that Ukrainians weren't met as heros when they initially liberated the area, in the same way they were in the southern Kherson.

It seems that a couple of posters would rather call me a Russian sympathiser than recognise the actual point I am making.  This will be my last post about this on this thread

I thought the majority had gone, I saw estimates from Ukraine of 5,000 left a couple of weeks ago but that was unconfirmed on a twitter post and in this link form 20th Jan only around 2,000 left.

 

Bakhmut's pre-war population was about 70,000. Today, an estimated 2,000 civilians remain in the city;

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/20/mapping-the-battle-for-bakhmut

 

Its a flattened town/city nowhere for civilians. This from just 3 days ago:

 

 

Source

1 hour ago, sharksy said:

Skepticism is fine, but at try and back it up with some facts.  Remember, the first victim of war - is the truth.

 

27 minutes ago, sharksy said:

I believe Bakhmut was 80% Russian speakers, so no doubt there will be 100s fighting for Ukraine.  But that leaves the majority who are not.  The gist of my post was that Ukrainians weren't met as heros when they initially liberated the area, in the same way they were in the southern Kherson.

It seems that a couple of posters would rather call me a Russian sympathiser than recognise the actual point I am making.  This will be my last post about this on this thread

I did cite facts. Remember that post about the poll that showed 4% support for Russia in the east and 1% in the South?

And it's quite laughable for you to be lecturing to me about backing up my claim with facts when all you've got is a claim of a mysteriously vanished article from the Guardian about the residents of Bakhmut being pro-Russian.

19 hours ago, sharksy said:

Whilst what you state is correct,  the fact is areas of Ukraine would rather be ruled by Russia than Ukraine.

Democracy is surely what the people want, not what the rules want.

People of Scotland were given the vote the leave the UK, for example.

The world would be a happier place if people were ruled by people whom they want to be ruled by.

19 hours ago, sharksy said:

I feel like you are trolling me somewhat here - I already stated I do not support Russia.

 

I suppose I should have posted a link in my original post referring to the fact to which I was trying to convey, in as much as nothing is really black + white.

I can't find the Guardian article i read recently, but read the wikipedia entry under "Background" section to illustrate what I was alluding to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bakhmut

 

You say that you oppose the Russians but you support the right of certain regions of the ukraine to break away. It's very dubious that there are any such regions now as I noted before with evidence to back up my assertion.

 

Actually, if anybody in engaged in trolling, it's you. I think what you're up to is something called "concern trolling". This is the practice of pretending to be on the side of someone in order to ultimately persuade them of the wrongness of their position.  So you claim to be against the Russian invasion, but then claim areas of Ukraine are still pro Russian and are justified in seeking independence.  Which of course, is what the Russians claim to justify their invasion.

 

I think, at this juncture, you're not fooling anybody.