Ukraine war: Blinken says China may give weapons to Russia

[Scott]

China is considering giving Russia weapons and ammunition for the Ukraine war, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said.

Mr Blinken told CBS News that Chinese companies were already providing "non-lethal support" to Russia - and new information suggested Beijing could provide "lethal support".

This escalation would mean "serious consequences" for China, he warned.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64695042

 

[billd766]

It is that elastic word again.

 

"may"

 

IMHO if China does supply offensive weapons to Russia it won't be give but probably sell or swap for something that China needs, like cheap oil.

[Tug]

I’m sure it would definitely escalate the transfer of modern western weapons to Ukraine ???????? ie aircraft long range missiles and many more tanks 

[Kwasaki]

Well Mr. Blinken IMO it's called business.

[billd766]

17 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Well Mr. Blinken IMO it's called business.

IMO it is called the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

(At least for now).

[Mickeymaus]

"This escalation would mean "serious consequences" for China, he warned."

 

And what is with the weapons delivery from NATO to the Ukraine?! Ok, behind this is the USA...

[Patong2021]

16 minutes ago, billd766 said:

IMO it is called the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

(At least for now).

So, the EU, Australia, Canada, South Korea are enemies of China?

If that is the case, perhaps it is time for a diversion away from purchase of Chinese commercial goods. Maybe it would do the world good to pay living wage to workers and to have consumer items that do not break after a few months use.

[Saanim]

58 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

"This escalation would mean "serious consequences" for China, he warned."

 

And what is with the weapons delivery from NATO to the Ukraine?! Ok, behind this is the USA...

That's not the same, is it? 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Saanim said:

That's not the same, is it? 

No, it's not the same. Russia is the aggressor. Aiding an aggressor is morally distinct from aiding a country defending itself from aggression.

[Mickeymaus]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No, it's not the same. Russia is the aggressor. Aiding an aggressor is morally distinct from aiding a country defending itself from aggression.

That's right. But how often the US was the aggressor and no one was allowed to care. The war in Ukraine is terrible - no doubt about it. When I imagine that in times of excellent news opportunities and social media, people are still killing each other and for what... this all is difficult to understand.

But when I think of the Wagner troops - a company with employees willing to kill for money - I can see that there are still people who like war. It is a business. 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Mickeymaus said:

That's right. But how often the US was the aggressor and no one was allowed to care. The war in Ukraine is terrible - no doubt about it. When I imagine that in times of excellent news opportunities and social media, people are still killing each other and for what... this all is difficult to understand.

But when I think of the Wagner troops - a company with employees willing to kill for money - I can see that there are still people who like war. It is a business. 

I don't know what you mean by "no one was allowed to care."

And comments like "The war in Ukraine is terrible - no doubt about it." without assigning responsibility, is just another example of both-sideism. Yes, it's a terrible war. It's a terrible war launched by the Russians.

[ozimoron]

19 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

That's right. But how often the US was the aggressor and no one was allowed to care. The war in Ukraine is terrible - no doubt about it. When I imagine that in times of excellent news opportunities and social media, people are still killing each other and for what... this all is difficult to understand.

But when I think of the Wagner troops - a company with employees willing to kill for money - I can see that there are still people who like war. It is a business. 

I read that the Wagner group aren't allowed to recruit from prisons anymore so their labour force is depleted. Apparently 80% of the inmates are no longer with us. Furthermore, they were trumping up extra charges and solitary confinement for prisoners who refused to sign up. The Wagner group has been unable to take Bakhmut. A new Russian offensive with more troops and more weapons is imminent.

 

The war is definitely not a business for the US. Defense spending is an unfortunate necessity propelled by Russian and Chinese aggression.

[Saanim]

59 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't know what you mean by "no one was allowed to care."

And comments like "The war in Ukraine is terrible - no doubt about it." without assigning responsibility, is just another example of both-sideism. Yes, it's a terrible war. It's a terrible war launched by the Russians.

Quote

The other thing I will say is that the war didn't start in February last year. The war started in 2014. And since 2014, NATO Allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment, so the Ukrainian Armed Forces were much stronger in 2022, than they were in 2020, and 2014. And of course, that made a huge difference when President Putin decided to attack Ukraine.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm

[John Drake]

Time to start treating China/Russia as a single entity, politically and economically. Sanctions on one require the same sanctions on the other. And don't forget to target and isolate China/Russia satellite countries. You listening, Thailand?

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, John Drake said:

Time to start treating China/Russia as a single entity, politically and economically. Sanctions on one require the same sanctions on the other. And don't forget to target and isolate China/Russia satellite countries. You listening, Thailand?

If isolate, where the ships will come from?

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, John Drake said:

Time to start treating China/Russia as a single entity, politically and economically. Sanctions on one require the same sanctions on the other. And don't forget to target and isolate China/Russia satellite countries. You listening, Thailand?

Well,that's one way to commit economic suicide. Unlike Russia,China is far too integrated into the world economic system to be treated that way. Biden is doing what he can by denying China advanced technology. I don't know how much more he can do. On the other hand, China does risk alienating Europe if it supplies weaponry to Russia. The Chinese have been on a charm offensive trying to woo Europe away from America.

[300sd]

5 hours ago, Saanim said:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm

Interesting statement above by the NATO Secretary General. I thought the war just started a year ago! It's been going on for about 8 years according to him. Well then who started it 8 years ago? Just wondering!!!

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, 300sd said:

Interesting statement above by the NATO Secretary General. I thought the war just started a year ago! It's been going on for about 8 years according to him. Well then who started it 8 years ago? Just wondering!!!

Surely you don't believe the war started a year ago? Have you been hiding under a rock. Russia started it by invading Crimea in 2014. That's 8 years ago, just like he said.

[300sd]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Surely you don't believe the war started a year ago? Have you been hiding under a rock. Russia started it by invading Crimea in 2014. That's 8 years ago, just like he said.

The history of Crimea is quite interesting. One should read up on it. It's quite complicated really but I'm sure you would understand it.

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, 300sd said:

The history of Crimea is quite interesting. One should read up on it. It's quite complicated really but I'm sure you would understand it.

I absolutely do. Furthermore I understand that Ukraine has owned it for almost 70 years. More than most of either country has been alive. It's Ukrainian territory.

[Saanim]

19 hours ago, John Drake said:

Time to start treating China/Russia as a single entity, politically and economically. Sanctions on one require the same sanctions on the other. And don't forget to target and isolate China/Russia satellite countries. You listening, Thailand?

Beside the fact that the Western world well being is very dependent on Chinese supplies, what should be the reason to isolate China? And by whom? Did they invade any country in last 100, 200 years? Do they have military bases around the world, threatening others, imposing sanctions on other countries? 

 

And why Thailand should be listening? Isn't it a sovereign country? Free to deal with anybody as per their liking and interests? 

 

Quite amazing view from somebody who has enjoyed easy sojourn here (I assume).  What's the word for such attitude?   

[billyo]

Since China has effectively bought up a large proportion of the world reserves of oil,gas,minerals,rare earths and the like all over Asia, Africa and South America through trade/infrastructure "development' deals without any care as to the the ethics or morality of the leaders they have dealt with, a desperate Russia as a pliant client state would be the ultimate prize.

 

That and bogging down the western powers in a protracted war in Ukraine. Sanctioning China at this stage is effectively sanctioning yourself and they hold huge amount of western debt and US treasuries. It also exposes the hand of the west into how much they are truly willing to commit to defend Ukraine , tests Chinese tech against western weapons and informs any future plans they have for Taiwan. WW3 has effectively begun.

 

That said it poses a real dilemma for China. A Russian collapse would make the case for invading Taiwan weak but a prolonged war, with Chinese military assistance, distracts the US, uses military assets and improves the likelihood of "success" in taking Taiwan. On the debit said, it would crash the Chinese economy. We've seen with Putin that the economy comes second to imperial ambition. I'm selling my Apple shares today!

 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp

 

Gideon Rachman in the FT seems to suggest that Munich and the Biden visit are to front up a united alliance but behind the scenes there are deep misgivings with the course and progress of the war.

But while the Russian military has performed worse than expected, the Russian economy has performed better. When swingeing western sanctions were imposed, it was widely predicted that Russia would suffer an economic contraction of 20 per cent or more. In the event, its economy is thought to have shrunk by about 3-4 per cent — and may grow over the next year. The fact that sanctions are not truly global has made them relatively easy to circumvent. By contrast, the Ukrainian economy is in deep trouble and dependent on western aid. For this reason, influential western analysts argue that time is not on Ukraine’s side — and that if Kyiv is to win, it must do so quickly. In Munich, there were frequent calls to give Ukraine all the help it needs to go on the offensive this spring and inflict a decisive defeat on Russia.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/3ff52359-fab7-430f-9e61-b62436fe653f

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by billyo

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Beside the fact that the Western world well being is very dependent on Chinese supplies, what should be the reason to isolate China? And by whom? Did they invade any country in last 100, 200 years? Do they have military bases around the world, threatening others, imposing sanctions on other countries? 

 

And why Thailand should be listening? Isn't it a sovereign country? Free to deal with anybody as per their liking and interests? 

 

Quite amazing view from somebody who has enjoyed easy sojourn here (I assume).  What's the word for such attitude?   

"Did they invade any country in last 100, 200 years?"

 

Ask India, Tibet and Vietnam.

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sino-Indian-War

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_People's_Republic_of_China

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

 

There's also China using North Korea for a proxy war against South Korea, and its constant threats to take Taiwan by force.

 

"Do they have military bases around the world, threatening others, imposing sanctions on other countries?"

 

China is working on establishing military and dual use facilities around the world, and is building illegal bases through-out the South China Sea, which it illegally claims to be part of its territory.  These bases are definitely threatening nearby countries, and shipping in the area.

 

Regarding sanctions, ask Australia about that.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-17/australian-trade-tension-sanctions-china-growing-commodities/12984218

 

 

[John Drake]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Beside the fact that the Western world well being is very dependent on Chinese supplies, what should be the reason to isolate China? And by whom? Did they invade any country in last 100, 200 years? Do they have military bases around the world, threatening others, imposing sanctions on other countries? 

 

And why Thailand should be listening? Isn't it a sovereign country? Free to deal with anybody as per their liking and interests? 

 

Quite amazing view from somebody who has enjoyed easy sojourn here (I assume).  What's the word for such attitude?   

I see that someone has already answered your first paragraph. So, I'll go on. Why should Thailand be listening? Because if they help Chinese firms evade sanctions and restrictions (as Thailand has openly been advertising for them to do the past three years), Thailand itself could be sanctioned. The US has already warned Vietnam about this. And, no, Thailand is not free to trade with anybody to their liking. It takes two to trade. Perhaps the US will announce increased safety inspections and tariff equalizations with Thailand. Or more. And Thailand can't do a thing about it.

 

Your last paragraph is an attempt to make a personal smear rather than discuss the topic. But I'll answer. I was recruited by the Thai government to come here, because they and the university in which I was hired had only one or two other specialists in my area. 

[Saanim]

11 minutes ago, John Drake said:

I see that someone has already answered your first paragraph. So, I'll go on. Why should Thailand be listening? Because if they help Chinese firms evade sanctions and restrictions (as Thailand has openly been advertising for them to do the past three years), Thailand itself could be sanctioned. The US has already warned Vietnam about this. And, no, Thailand is not free to trade with anybody to their liking. It takes two to trade. Perhaps the US will announce increased safety inspections and tariff equalizations with Thailand. Or more. And Thailand can't do a thing about it.

 

Your last paragraph is an attempt to make a personal smear rather than discuss the topic. But I'll answer. I was recruited by the Thai government to come here, because they and the university in which I was hired had only one or two other specialists in my area. 

There is no personal smear, just comment to your attitude. And your position being one of two or three specialists in your area? It confirms the attitude.

(How many of us coming sacrifising ourselves for Thailand, then getting the right to tell them who they may be friends with...) 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Saanim

[John Drake]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

There is no personal smear, just comment to your attitude. And your position being one of two or three specialists in your area? It confirms the attitude.

(How many of us coming sacrifizing ourselves 

Non-sequitur in the first bit. And I don't know what that last line means.

[billyo]

9 minutes ago, John Drake said:

I see that someone has already answered your first paragraph. So, I'll go on. Why should Thailand be listening? Because if they help Chinese firms evade sanctions and restrictions (as Thailand has openly been advertising for them to do the past three years), Thailand itself could be sanctioned. The US has already warned Vietnam about this. And, no, Thailand is not free to trade with anybody to their liking. It takes two to trade. Perhaps the US will announce increased safety inspections and tariff equalizations with Thailand. Or more. And Thailand can't do a thing about it.

 

Your last paragraph is an attempt to make a personal smear rather than discuss the topic. But I'll answer. I was recruited by the Thai government to come here, because they and the university in which I was hired had only one or two other specialists in my area. 

America is becoming much less important to Thailand than  it was, indeed some of the more militant yellow shirts like to frame the US as inflaming the student democracy protests. The Sino-Thai elite which own most of the country has deep personal and cultural and business ties back with the old country and if they had to pick a side it would probably be China but they would rather straddle both camps and play them off against each other. The army is happy to buy duff equipment from any country if the price and kick backs are right - Chinese submarines anyone ?  India,China and Russia are current "besties"  but all money is "good" as far a the country is concerned. Thailand has no need to fear any US sanctions if any were to happen and besides which it's not in US interests to push Thailand away in any meaningful way. Disappointment maybe expressed diplomatically but that would be it.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

There is no personal smear, just comment to your attitude. And your position being one of two or three specialists in your area? It confirms the attitude.

(How many of us coming sacrifising ourselves for Thailand, then getting the right to tell them who they may be friends with...) 

The nerve of anybody dictating foreign policy to Thailand.  It's a good thing that Russia would never do such a thing to  Ukraine. Oh wait a minute...

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, John Drake said:

I see that someone has already answered your first paragraph. So, I'll go on. Why should Thailand be listening? Because if they help Chinese firms evade sanctions and restrictions (as Thailand has openly been advertising for them to do the past three years), Thailand itself could be sanctioned. The US has already warned Vietnam about this. And, no, Thailand is not free to trade with anybody to their liking. It takes two to trade. Perhaps the US will announce increased safety inspections and tariff equalizations with Thailand. Or more. And Thailand can't do a thing about it.

 

Your last paragraph is an attempt to make a personal smear rather than discuss the topic. But I'll answer. I was recruited by the Thai government to come here, because they and the university in which I was hired had only one or two other specialists in my area. 

It's a virtually universally observed phenomenon that the two most important factors in determining how much foreign trade one nation does with another is

 1 :proximity and

2. the economic strength of the nation's involved.   

Obviously, China beats America on both counts.

            The rational best that America can hope for is for Thailand to remain neutral.

 

 

 

 

[billyo]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's a virtually universally observed phenomenon that the two most important factors in determining how much foreign trade one nation does with another is

 1 :proximity and

2. the economic strength of the nation's involved.   

Obviously, China beats America on both counts.

            The rational best that America can hope for is for Thailand to remain neutral.

 

 

 

 

They will be both neutral and two faced. If China was to invade (which they wouldn't) they would roll over in a day and go "Vichy" with their compliance. Just like they did back in WW2. Prayuth is no Zelinskiy , indeed that is not the point of the army in the Land of Smiles. What's the point of fighting if your country is destroyed in the process. Indeed Thailand is looking to be a safe haven if the world goes to pot and you keep your head down,just ask the Russians !

Edited February 21, 2023 by billyo