NI Protocol: 'Final talks' due between Rishi Sunak and Ursula von der Leyen

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

"Deliberately antagonising the EU", are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types, you always knock your country, government, Royalty etc..?

 

I’ll tell you what I am not.

 

I’m not the topic of discussion.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

Oh no, Brexit is back, give it a rest, please..............

The NI Protocol is a direct result of Brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

An avid Guardian reader. So yes, always contempt for the Country, the Tories, the Working Classes, the Royal Family etc.

 

It comes with the territory.

Another baseless  ad hominem

[Hi from France]

Full text : https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/27/rishi-sunak-brexit-ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-northern-ireland-brexit-deal-uk-politics-live?page=with:block-63fcde1d8f083ec219f73112#block-63fcde1d8f083ec219f73112

 

 

This sentence in the Political Declaration suggests a promising new commitment to actually implementing what you sign up to:

Both sides recall the importance they attach to the respect of international obligations (pacta sunt servanda), including those arising from the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, done on 23 May 1969, which applies to all international agreements including the Withdrawal Agreement and its Protocol on Ireland / Northern Ireland

[Hi from France]

about the “Stormont brake”

 

 

 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...tsheet.pdf.pdf 

Citation :

Emergency mechanism / “Stormont” brake to allow the UK Government at the request of 30 Members of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland to stop the application in Northern Ireland of amended or replacing EU legal provisions that may have a significant and lasting impact specific to the everyday lives of communities there.
This mechanism can only be triggered under the most exceptional circumstances, as a matter of last resort, in a very well-defined process set out in a Unilateral Declaration by the UK

 

 

 

 

• for the for the brake to apply, power sharing at Stormont would have to be restored. That would require the DUP to allow the assembly to start sitting (by backing the election of a speaker) and to lift its boycott on participating in the power-sharing executive.
• If the DUP were to continue to boycott the executive, the “Stormont brake” would not apply.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rthern-ireland

 

 

 

unclear to me : in the case EU law is blocked, I'm not sure what the UE will/can do

Edited February 28, 2023 by Hi from France

[RayC]

12 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

about the “Stormont brake”

 

 

 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres...tsheet.pdf.pdf 

Citation :

Emergency mechanism / “Stormont” brake to allow the UK Government at the request of 30 Members of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland to stop the application in Northern Ireland of amended or replacing EU legal provisions that may have a significant and lasting impact specific to the everyday lives of communities there.
This mechanism can only be triggered under the most exceptional circumstances, as a matter of last resort, in a very well-defined process set out in a Unilateral Declaration by the UK

 

 

 

 

• for the for the brake to apply, power sharing at Stormont would have to be restored. That would require the DUP to allow the assembly to start sitting (by backing the election of a speaker) and to lift its boycott on participating in the power-sharing executive.
• If the DUP were to continue to boycott the executive, the “Stormont brake” would not apply.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rthern-ireland

 

 

 

unclear to me : in the case EU law is blocked, I'm not sure what the UE will/can do

This is where this new Agreement might fail. According to the BBC if the UK and EU cannot reach an agreement on a proposed new law, then the matter goes to an independent arbiter. But does this independent arbiter rank higher than the ECJ? It's hard to believe that the EU would agree to that possibility.  (I assume that both the EU and UK are hoping that this independent arbiter is never called into action?).

 

The other inconsistency is that the NI assembly has 90 members but only 30 MLAs are required to initiative the Stormont brake. Therefore, it is possible to have the bizarre situation whereby the NI Assembly passes a motion whilst at the same time refers the same motion to Westminster for possible further negotiation with the EU!

 

BBC News - Brexit: What is the Stormont brake?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-64795902

[transam]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The NI Protocol is a direct result of Brexit.

Of course, it is, and par of the course to sort......Yabadaba doo......

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

This is where this new Agreement might fail. According to the BBC if the UK and EU cannot reach an agreement on a proposed new law, then the matter goes to an independent arbiter. But does this independent arbiter rank higher than the ECJ? It's hard to believe that the EU would agree to that possibility.  (I assume that both the EU and UK are hoping that this independent arbiter is never called into action?).

 

The other inconsistency is that the NI assembly has 90 members but only 30 MLAs are required to initiative the Stormont brake. Therefore, it is possible to have the bizarre situation whereby the NI Assembly passes a motion whilst at the same time refers the same motion to Westminster for possible further negotiation with the EU!

 

BBC News - Brexit: What is the Stormont brake?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-64795902

A great example of why we should have broken free from the cabal with no deal.

 

Like any abusive relationship it is best to make a clean break and sever all ties. Let the corrupt EU come crawling back over time.

 

Unfortunately we had a traitor amongst our ranks. Theresa May will not be remembered fondly. Lucky for her it's the 21st century.

[Maybole]

A waste of time. The DUP is led by a group of bigots who will never accept a catholic First Minister.

[Chomper Higgot]

Sunak’s spots the glaringly obvious, and then opens his mouth and talks about it:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/28/sunak-northern-ireland-access-uk-eu-markets-trade-deal

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

A great example of why we should have broken free from the cabal with no deal.

 

Like any abusive relationship it is best to make a clean break and sever all ties. Let the corrupt EU come crawling back over time.

 

Unfortunately we had a traitor amongst our ranks. Theresa May will not be remembered fondly. Lucky for her it's the 21st century.

Another version of the arithmetically challenged arguments offered by Brexiters. I remember before Brexit actually occurred that Brexiters were claiming that Brexit was going to hurt the EU worse than the UK.  This seems to be just another case of this kind of thinking. What don't Brexiters understand about the fact that the EU's economy is over 5 times as big as the UK's. Yet somehow to them this means the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

A great example of why we should have broken free from the cabal with no deal.

 

Like any abusive relationship it is best to make a clean break and sever all ties. Let the corrupt EU come crawling back over time.

 

Unfortunately we had a traitor amongst our ranks. Theresa May will not be remembered fondly. Lucky for her it's the 21st century.

You seen to be lapsing into the world of conspiracy theories (cabals and traitors), so I guess that I shouldn't be surprised that - despite all the evidence which clearly shows the detrimental economic effects of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union on the UK - you cling to the belief that we would have been better off going even further and leaving the EU with no deal and no plan for life post-Brexit. (Unfortunately Johnson demonstrated that he shared your view on the planning aspect).

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sunak’s spots the glaringly obvious, and then opens his mouth and talks about it:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/28/sunak-northern-ireland-access-uk-eu-markets-trade-deal

A line from one of Frank Sinatra's songs springs to mind: " ... and then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid ...."

 

[candide]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sunak’s spots the glaringly obvious, and then opens his mouth and talks about it:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/28/sunak-northern-ireland-access-uk-eu-markets-trade-deal

And it's worth quoting, for lazy forum members:

Speaking at a Coca-Cola factory in Lisburn, he said: “If we get this right, if we get this framework implemented, we get the executive back up and running, Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position, the unique position in the entire world in having privileged access not just to the UK home market, which is the fifth biggest in the world, but also the European Union single market.

“Nobody else has that"

????

[Hi from France]

"Nobody else has that"?

 

But Scotland might hope to get the same deal ?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Hi from France

[Mac Mickmanus]

33 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

"Nobody else has that"?

 

But Scotland might hope to get the same deal ?

Scotland has no involvement in this  , this is between England and Ireland 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scotland has no involvement in this  , this is between England and Ireland 

No it is not about ‘England and Ireland’

 

It’s between the UK, Eire and the EU.

 

[JonnyF]

10 hours ago, RayC said:

You seen to be lapsing into the world of conspiracy theories (cabals and traitors), so I guess that I shouldn't be surprised that - despite all the evidence which clearly shows the detrimental economic effects of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union on the UK - you cling to the belief that we would have been better off going even further and leaving the EU with no deal and no plan for life post-Brexit. (Unfortunately Johnson demonstrated that he shared your view on the planning aspect).

Johnson had some good ideas. Did some good work. 

 

That's why his political rivals and the MSM had him removed for having a slice of cake during lockdown or whatever it was... 

 

Fortunately Sunak has done a better job with the outstanding Brexit issues than I had expected. Like I said, if we keep chipping away at those corrupt EU tentacles we will eventually be 100% free from them. It took decades to be ensnared, a few more years to escape isn't too bad.

[JonnyF]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

Another version of the arithmetically challenged arguments offered by Brexiters. I remember before Brexit actually occurred that Brexiters were claiming that Brexit was going to hurt the EU worse than the UK.  This seems to be just another case of this kind of thinking. What don't Brexiters understand about the fact that the EU's economy is over 5 times as big as the UK's. Yet somehow to them this means the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_Brexit_on_the_European_Union

[placeholder]

Just now, JonnyF said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_Brexit_on_the_European_Union

What do you believe that this data proves?

 

[transam]

12 hours ago, placeholder said:

Another version of the arithmetically challenged arguments offered by Brexiters. I remember before Brexit actually occurred that Brexiters were claiming that Brexit was going to hurt the EU worse than the UK.  This seems to be just another case of this kind of thinking. What don't Brexiters understand about the fact that the EU's economy is over 5 times as big as the UK's. Yet somehow to them this means the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

You must have links to what you remember, surely...?

[RayC]

50 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What do you believe that this data proves?

 

What it indicates is what Barnier said all along: There are no winners with Brexit.

 

Given that the overwhelming body of data demonstrates that - rather than bring economic benefit - Brexit has severely damaged the UK economy, Brexit supporters are now reduced to justifying it on the basis that the EU has also been adversely affected.

 

It's a rational approach if you happen to be an economic sado-masochist.

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, RayC said:

What it indicates is what Barnier said all along: There are no winners with Brexit.

 

Given that the overwhelming body of data demonstrates that - rather than bring economic benefit - Brexit has severely damaged the UK economy, Brexit supporters are now reduced to justifying it on the basis that the EU has also been adversely affected.

 

It's a rational approach if you happen to be an economic sado-masochist.

Well, what it could mean is that JonnyF has had a sudden conversion experience since the data he produced actually supports what I claimed.  It's a miracle! Hallelujah!

There is the unlikely possibility that he meant to refute my claim and just got it massively wrong.

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

What it indicates is what Barnier said all along: There are no winners with Brexit.

 

Given that the overwhelming body of data demonstrates that - rather than bring economic benefit - .

You make the usual British mistake : the European project is about much more than economy, it's political, it's about defending our common interests when the West and liberal democraties are in comparative decline to totalitarian (China), or illiberal (Turkey, India, Russia...) countries.

 

 

In this regard, Brexit (combined with Covid and the Ukraine crises) has allowed huge political advances that used to be vetoed by the brits when they had power in the EU.

 

Brexit has proved a timely and very good thing for Europe.

 

 

For the UK it doesn't make a lot of sense: idiotic populist  politicians and media have taken control of the country for years, it accelerates issues with the Union and of course there are economic issues with "global britain" for example, a trade deal with New Zealand, Australia or now Mexico makes no sense for UK farmers 

Quote

 

“Environmental impacts are why beef was a sensitive sector, both in New Zealand and in Australia. And now in Mexico. And we want them now to really show that they are keeping their promises of not undermining farmers and trade deals. We don’t want to see further imports of beef.”

 

“I can see no justification for importing any beef into the UK – it certainly won’t help UK farmers or food security if the standards or price of that beef is lower than that which we can produce in the UK.”

 

Dustin Benton, the Green Alliance policy director, added: “Mexican beef is somewhat more carbon-intensive than UK beef. It doesn’t make sense to undermine British producers with higher carbon imports.”

 

 

 

Actually, UK farmers have much more stakes in common with European farmers, politics and economy are interwined.

 

 

.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Hi from France

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

You make the usual British mistake :

A misplaced, incorrect over-generalisation to ascribe one viewpoint to all Brits.

 

In any event, no mistake on my part. It is easier to discuss economic costs and benefits as they are quantitative unlike the political, social and cultural aspects which are qualitative.

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

the European project is about much more than economy, it's political, it's about defending our common interests when the West and liberal democraties are in comparative decline to totalitarian (China), or illiberal (Turkey, India, Russia...) countries.

The European project may well be about defending common interests and liberal democracy, but that doesn't mean that a nation has to be a member of the EU in order to do so: The UK, Switzerland and Norway are all liberal democracies and all are outside the EU. Indeed, being an EU member does not, unfortunately, guarantee liberal democracy. One need only look at the erosion of civil rights in Hungary to see that.

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

In this regard, Brexit (combined with Covid and the Ukraine crises) has allowed huge political advances that used to be vetoed by the brits when they had power in the EU.

These are bold statements but you offer no supporting evidence 

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

Brexit has proved a timely and very good thing for Europe.

 

Again, a bold statement with nothing to support it. You should, perhaps, read the link posted by @JonnyF earlier in the thread about the impact of Brexit on the EU: This article suggests that the net effect of Brexit on the EU has been negative.

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

For the UK it doesn't make a lot of sense: idiotic populist  politicians and media have taken control of the country for years, it accelerates issues with the Union and of course there are economic issues with "global britain" for example, a trade deal with New Zealand, Australia or now Mexico makes no sense for UK farmers 

It is only recently that populist politicians have held sway in the UK and recent events offer hope that their influence might wane.

 

In any event, the UK is hardly unique in this regard. One need only look at your own country, Belgium, Germany, Italy, etc. to see that populism is alive and kicking - and arguably, more influential - in mainland Europe.

 

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

Actually, UK farmers have much more stakes in common with European farmers, politics and economy are interwined.

 

We can agree on that at least.

[Hi from France]

10 hours ago, RayC said:

A misplaced, incorrect over-generalisation to ascribe one viewpoint to all Brits.

didn't say "all brits" but what you hold here is the very typical british view of the EU as a big market with no political power.

 

The remainer argument I read over and over is not about a common European project, but about making more money, fostering economic growth etc... nothing wrong with that but it shows having the UK as a EU member was a mistake all along.

 

I'm fine with having lots of collaborations with the UK, as long as we are not again taken for a ride. Fine with EFTA, but no full membership, the British influence was detrimental.

 

 

 

Quote

In this regard, Brexit (combined with Covid and the Ukraine crises) has allowed huge political advances that used to be vetoed by the brits when they had power in the EU.

I'm surprised you don't know about NextGenerationEU (EU bond, €800 billion to fund the recovery), REPowerEU, the Stand Up for Ukraine campaign,  joint procurement in defence investments: all of these major advances would have been watered down or vetoed by the brits.

 

 

I couldn't care less that the short-term economic effect of Brexit on the EU has been negative.

 

so

• for the European project, Brexit was great. We have a stronger EU (and many problems indeed, but we can face them in a better way)
• in the longer term, we'll probably have the UK back in the single market, though we need to be very careful = we have to take back control of our €uro forex, bonds, and stock markets
• Brexit has been great for public opinion across Europe

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Hi from France

[JonnyF]

19 hours ago, RayC said:

What it indicates is what Barnier said all along: There are no winners with Brexit.

Wrong. Britain has broken free from the EU and regained it's sovereignty. That's a massive win. The EU gained nothing, it lost one of it's richest members and largest net contributors and also exposed itself as a self serving, spiteful organization.

 

19 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Given that the overwhelming body of data demonstrates that - rather than bring economic benefit - Brexit has severely damaged the UK economy, Brexit supporters are now reduced to justifying it on the basis that the EU has also been adversely affected.

Brexit was never about % points of GDP. That is something that Remainers cannot (or refuse to) understand. In any case, it was always a long term project. You can't undo 30 years of being stifled by an overly bureaucratic, corrupt organization in a couple of years, especially when those couple of years included Covid 19 lockdowns and a war in Ukraine. We'll have a much clearer picture of the longer term economic impact 5 years from now.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Wrong. Britain has broken free from the EU and regained it's sovereignty. That's a massive win. The EU gained nothing, it lost one of it's richest members and largest net contributors and also exposed itself as a self serving, spiteful organization.

 

Brexit was never about % points of GDP. That is something that Remainers cannot (or refuse to) understand. In any case, it was always a long term project. You can't undo 30 years of being stifled by an overly bureaucratic, corrupt organization in a couple of years, especially when those couple of years included Covid 19 lockdowns and a war in Ukraine. We'll have a much clearer picture of the longer term economic impact 5 years from now.

The decades when the UK went from being the sick man of Europe to one of the richest nations on the planet.

 

Yes it will take time to reverse that, but Brexit is making progress in that direction.

[RuamRudy]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:04 AM, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scotland has no involvement in this  , this is between England and Ireland 

Oh how I wish that were true, and that my country was free of the malignant effect of being governed by Westminster. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Wrong. Britain has broken free from the EU and regained it's sovereignty. That's a massive win.

How do the benefits of this newly regained sovereignty manifest themselves?