PEA found out meter is spinning backward

[killala]

I’ve 5kw Solar and an analogue meter and quite happily spins backwards all day long and my average monthly bill is around 200 baht. The rest of the estate are all on analogue meters save for one as the old metre and its pole took fire some months ago. PEA replaced the meter with a digital and not only will it not run in reverse but is actually recording the output from his solar array!! Nasty. 

[Muhendis]

35 minutes ago, killala said:

but is actually recording the output from his solar array!! Nasty

 

I find that difficult to believe.

How do you know they (PEA) are monitoring his solar output?

The solar output is effectively isolated from the AC side of the inverter by loads of electronic components.

Sound like a silly story to me.

 

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

 

I find that difficult to believe.

How do you know they (PEA) are monitoring his solar output?

The solar output is effectively isolated from the AC side of the inverter by loads of electronic components.

Sound like a silly story to me.

 

 

If he's grid-tied and exporting the meter is quite capable of recording the energy exported.

 

There have been other reports of the second meter channel recording solar export by default, and even a couple of reports of customers being billed for that exported energy!

 

[Crossy]

For information, this is the latest list of PEA approved inverters.

 

It's good to see an increasing number of hybrids being approved including my intended Deye 5kW units.

 

04 Inverter List Update 2024-05-08.pdf

 

 

[Jenkins9039]

On 2/28/2023 at 10:47 AM, eddysacc said:

 

 

The PEA found out that my meter is spinning backward.

So they send some ordinary staff out to my place to check.

I let him inspect my property, and he finds the solar panels installed on the roof.

So he is saying that tomorrow some engineer will give you a call and check your place again. 

I'm asking if there is a problem. He is replying, "Don't worry.

This was one week ago, and nothing has happened so far.

Opinions, please. How will this play out, and should I do anything ?

I got a position consumption on the meter about 100 units every month.

 

Probably install a new meter (digital). - Nothing to worry about.

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Probably install a new meter (digital). - Nothing to worry about.

 

And then ...

 

 

[fittobethaied]

On my April bill, the usage was 861, then on my May bill the usage was EXACTLY the same. How can that possibly be? It's highly unlikely that the bills could be identical. That has never happened in 14 years. April had 24 days over 100 degrees, and May had only 12. The Tessaban installed new "smart" meters a few months ago, and my theory is that the home office fixed the meter to read the same as April since that is the hottest month of the year, and it gives them an opportunity to scam the homeowner and make a good profit for the month if they can duplicate the usage in a cooler month. Prove me wrong!

[Muhendis]

39 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

If he's grid-tied and exporting the meter is quite capable of recording the energy exported.

 

There have been other reports of the second meter channel recording solar export by default, and even a couple of reports of customers being billed for that exported energy!

 

He is Not exporting. He has a new digital meter.

PEA may be able to monitor his AC export attempts but we are talking about monitoring his SOLAR output.

Not possible.

For those that are unaware, solar is the power fed from the solar panels to the solar panel input of the inverter or the charge controller(s). This is the bit that varies depending on time of day and quantity of sunshine.

Monitoring the inverter output with another chanel?

Tell us how this might work. 

Meters have an input and an output. Direction of current flow can be detected so what is flowing in each direction can be separately metered. I think I just answered my own question. 

Does this guys meter have a dual meter display?

 

 

[lom]

3 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

Does this guys meter have a dual meter display?

I don't think any of the digital meters have that but they have a button to switch between display mode, they can display P and Q in both directions.

[Jenkins9039]

They see my one spinning backwards years ago, first of all they thought it was broken, so installed a new meter (one that can't spin backwards), - it still spins backwards but they still make 4-7,000 THB a month and it's a third party not PEA doing it now so its usually or has been ignored.

 

[Crossy]

34 minutes ago, lom said:

I don't think any of the digital meters have that but they have a button to switch between display mode, they can display P and Q in both directions.

 

Depending upon the installed firmware and settings the meters can monitor and record many parameters.

 

Common settings would include: -

• Import and Export energy
• Time of Use (on/off peak) usage

Pressing the blue(?) button switches between at least two display modes.

[JBChiangRai]

Every digital meter in Thailand I have seen so far records import and export power.

[Muhendis]

10 hours ago, lom said:

they can display P and Q in both directions.

Would that be Power and Quality?

 

Regardless of the technicalities, I'm sure you all realised when you started back-spinning your meters, you were doing something that is not allowed and probably regarded by the electricity companies as theft.

 

The reaction of the companies is quite predictable and will, sooner or later, land you in trouble just like the example case posted here.

[Muhendis]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Every digital meter in Thailand I have seen so far records import and export power.

Interesting.

Everything I've read on the subject of back-spinning meters and digital meters has so far been about digital meters being fitted to prevent feeding power back into the grid.

I guess it makes sense to allow and monitor power feed-in ready for the time when we can all, legally, feed our excess power back into the grid and get paid for it. 🙂

[lom]

11 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

Would that be Power and Quality?

P is active energy , Q is reactive energy  where P usually flows from grid into load and Q is bounced back from load to grid.

 

[JBChiangRai]

54 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

Would that be Power and Quality?

 

Regardless of the technicalities, I'm sure you all realised when you started back-spinning your meters, you were doing something that is not allowed and probably regarded by the electricity companies as theft.

 

The reaction of the companies is quite predictable and will, sooner or later, land you in trouble just like the example case posted here.

 

I don't think P & Q means anything other than the register names, it could just as easily be A & B or X & Y.

 

I think them threatening theft wouldn't stick, I was a magistrate in the UK and it doesn't meet the legal definition of theft there, I'd be surprised if it did here.

 

It's probably more a case of rule breaking, I'm struggling to think of what it could be prosecuted under.

 

The ultimate sanction is for them to cut you off, but I don't see that happening.  I do know of people who have been caught, normally they just fit digital meters, they probably don't care if you export after that as they get your power for free.

 

 

 

 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

It's probably more a case of rule breaking, I'm struggling to think of what it could be prosecuted under.

At the moment, any unauthorised connection to the electricity grid, including home power generating systems, seems to be perceived as a grey area by people who feed back into the grid.

Just because an inverter can do this does not give the inverter owner any rights to so do.

In the case on this thread, it was made very clear that PEA officers considered it to be theft.

The following is a blog about what happens in the UK.

https://www.endesa.com/en/blogs/endesa-s-blog/light/illegal-electricity-connection#:~:text=Illegal connections are considered an,connection%2C it should be reported.

Making power for home use is not and probably never will be illegal but making an unapproved connection to someone else's power supply is absolutely not permitted.

Also there may be a case for licencing electrical engineers and fitters in Thailand although that is probably another topic entirely.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I don't think P & Q means anything other than the register names, it could just as easily be A & B or X & Y.

 

I think them threatening theft wouldn't stick, I was a magistrate in the UK and it doesn't meet the legal definition of theft there, I'd be surprised if it did here.

 

It's probably more a case of rule breaking, I'm struggling to think of what it could be prosecuted under.

 

The ultimate sanction is for them to cut you off, but I don't see that happening.  I do know of people who have been caught, normally they just fit digital meters, they probably don't care if you export after that as they get your power for free.

 

 

 

 

 

P-Real power Q-Reactive power. How normal reactive power (inductive capacitive loads) differs from active power feeding back to the grid from solar systems is a complex subject.

 

The measurement of reactive power Q by some digital meters has in the past been a much talked about subject as it would allow electricity supply companies to charge customers for excessive reactive power. 

Spinning a mechanical meter backwards using grid tie inverters will give the appearance that a customer has used less electricity from grid than they actually have. Most electricity authorities will have a section in their regulations covering tampering with metering device. 

 

Attempting to argue with the fact that one has paid it back through net metering would be countered with several technical and administrative arguments possibly including meter accuracy.

 

Having said that, it's likely most cases would be punished by fitting a digital meter, but if that were not the case I for one would not want to stand up in a Thai court and argue with a PEA legal team about spinning their meter backwards and connecting unauthorised supply to the grid.

[JBChiangRai]

23 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

At the moment, any unauthorised connection to the electricity grid, including home power generating systems, seems to be perceived as a grey area by people who feed back into the grid.

Just because an inverter can do this does not give the inverter owner any rights to so do.

In the case on this thread, it was made very clear that PEA officers considered it to be theft.

The following is a blog about what happens in the UK.

https://www.endesa.com/en/blogs/endesa-s-blog/light/illegal-electricity-connection#:~:text=Illegal connections are considered an,connection%2C it should be reported.

Making power for home use is not and probably never will be illegal but making an unapproved connection to someone else's power supply is absolutely not permitted.

Also there may be a case for licencing electrical engineers and fitters in Thailand although that is probably another topic entirely.

 

That UK article is specific to connecting to the grid and stealing electricity, it’s not the same thing at all.

 

People spinning back meters have a lawful connection to the grid, what they are doing is not the same as an illegal connection to the grid.

Edited May 28 by JBChiangRai
Spelling

[lom]

21 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

The measurement of reactive power Q by some digital meters has in the past been a much talked about subject as it would allow electricity supply companies to charge customers for excessive reactive power.

I should mention that all consumers creates a bit of reactive power on the grid so the digital meter can measure how much there is of it on incoming meter terminals and how  much there is of it on outgoing terminals which means that they can directly see how much Q you have created in relation to how much P you have used.

It is common in Europe that big industries have to install equipment to lower their Q but I have never heard of home users having to do it or being charged for it.

So @Muhendis, you can say that Q stands for Quality (of the AC sine wave) and it may be the reason why that letter has been chosen, it is an international standard.

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, lom said:

I should mention that all consumers creates a bit of reactive power on the grid so the digital meter can measure how much there is of it on incoming meter terminals and how  much there is of it on outgoing terminals which means that they can directly see how much Q you have created in relation to how much P you have used.

It is common in Europe that big industries have to install equipment to lower their Q but I have never heard of home users having to do it or being charged for it.

So @Muhendis, you can say that Q stands for Quality (of the AC sine wave) and it may be the reason why that letter has been chosen, it is an international standard.

My mum always told me to watch my P’s and Q’s.

 

QED mum always know best.