Leasehold 30+?

[habuspasha]

 8 Steps to Success Buying Property in Thailand (2012) warns readers considering the purchase of a leasehold that the offer of 30+30+30 year leases is not the equivalent of a 90 year lease because only the first 30 years is legally protected by registry in the Land Office.  The 2^nd and 3^rd 30 years are not legally guaranteed; they are only contracts between the lessor and the lessee, made if they or their designated successors are known, alive, and willing at the later time.  The author points out that the law was still undeveloped (in 2012) as few leases had run 30 years. 

 

My questions: Are the legal protections now stronger than they were in 2012?  What are they?  Can renewals now be registered by the Land Office, or are they still only contractual? Can anyone recommend a lawyer to help provide the protection the lessee needs to assure a 2^nd and 3^rd thirty-year lease.

[FriendlyFarang]

22 minutes ago, habuspasha said:

My questions: Are the legal protections now stronger than they were in 2012?  What are they?  Can renewals now be registered by the Land Office, or are they still only contractual? Can anyone recommend a lawyer to help provide the protection the lessee needs to assure a 2^nd and 3^rd thirty-year lease.

There is no way to assure a lease longer than 30 years, when the 30 years are up you have to negotiate a new lease with your landlord.

[habuspasha]

4 hours ago, FriendlyFarang said:

There is no way to assure a lease longer than 30 years, when the 30 years are up you have to negotiate a new lease with your landlord.

I was asking about a leasehold sale. not just a lease.  It seems that one of the ways in which the 2nd and 3rd 30 year periods are protected is when the lessee becomes part of the lessor as well.  Has this now become common practice?

[paddypower]

6 hours ago, habuspasha said:

I was asking about a leasehold sale. not just a lease.  It seems that one of the ways in which the 2nd and 3rd 30 year periods are protected is when the lessee becomes part of the lessor as well.  Has this now become common practice?

explain?

[KhunLA]

Foreigners have 1 option to own - condo.

 

Only reply you need to remember, after you're done reading the 100s of replies this thread might generate, as the experts chime in.

Edited March 6, 2023 by KhunLA

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, habuspasha said:

8 Steps to Success Buying Property in Thailand (2012) warns readers considering the purchase of a leasehold that the offer of 30+30+30 year leases is not the equivalent of a 90 year lease because only the first 30 years is legally protected by registry in the Land Office.  The 2^nd and 3^rd 30 years are not legally guaranteed;

I would consider the illegality of the 30+30+30 agreement would invalidate the original 30 year lease.

[actonion]

Lease or no lease it did'nt help  one German man who wanted a Divorce from his cheating Wife.. many years ago  in East  Pattaya

 

Having sucessfully   kept the  family house due to his long lease,  the wife was told by the Court to move out, which she did, approximately 2 months later the German man  was  shot dead  in a drive by shooting  while riding his  Motorbike in East Pattaya...  Police reports  said they were looking for  motives, but found none !!!...  or  is it just my suspicious mind 

[paddypower]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I would consider the illegality of the 30+30+30 agreement would invalidate the original 30 year lease.

yes. Stay a million miles away from investing in leased property. and dont believe anything any of the Thai or international lawyers advise you. Without getting into the details of our situation, (an apartment lease) which was different from what the OA seems to be referring to we went through 3 levels of Courts. At the level of the Supreme court, our 30+30+30 lease was ruled to have been an attempt to buy the land the property was built on - without registering it., So we lost title. The case arose because our developer sold the land twice, once to a land holding/management company and a second time to a Thai loan shark in Phuket city.

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, habuspasha said:

Can renewals now be registered by the Land Office, or are they still only contractual?

Cannot be registered. Any lease longer than 30 years – i.e. 30+30+... – is an unregistered agreement between two parties and not bound to the land title deed.

There is no legal way at the moment to get a secured lease longer than 30 years...

 

Section 538. A hire of immovable property is not enforceable by action unless there be some written evidence signed by the party liable. If the hire is for more than three years or for the life of the letter or hirer, it is enforceable only for three years unless it is made in writing and registered by the competent official.

Section 539. Costs of a contract of hire are borne by both parties equally. 

Section 540. The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal.

Source-link HERE.

[dayo202]

Usefruct agreement for life is a better option to consider 

[ThaiLawOnline]

Usufructs and leases are different. It's like a loan or a gift, different contracts. The 3 times 30 years is NOT in the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. The Code writes about 1 renewal (I thin it is section 538 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand - hereafter CCCT) that can be protected by another contract called a declaration of intention. (art. 158 of CCCT by memory, not sure).

 

Be very carefully with lawyers promising you 90 years. Commercial leases can be longer than 30 years but that is a rare exception. The government wants to change the law for years but didn't do it yet.

 

I registered tons of leases and usufruct during more than 15 years managing a law firm. These are safe, good, but some provinces are more complex ; phuket, Hua hin, Samui, Pattaya. Why? The law is the same but these land departments often ask tea money.

[ukrules]

48 minutes ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

The law is the same but these land departments often ask tea money.

So the land deparment in Hua Hin is corrupt?

[ThaiLawOnline]

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

So the land deparment in Hua Hin is corrupt?

 

To saw that on a public forum is dangerous.... But by experience, I know that these 4 places can be difficult. I registered leases and usufruct and maybe 80 different district. It is not the province only, in some provinces you have districts.

 

Many years ago, I would say 8-10 years old, impossible to register a usufruct in Udon Thani. Why? They simply refused. That is Thailand... You can try to see then, but it is often better to find other solution. Other contracts, other protections. We need to check and call each land department before each job to be sure it is possible.

[habuspasha]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, ThaiLawOnline said:

Usufructs and leases are different. It's like a loan or a gift, different contracts. The 3 times 30 years is NOT in the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. The Code writes about 1 renewal (I thin it is section 538 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand - hereafter CCCT) that can be protected by another contract called a declaration of intention. (art. 158 of CCCT by memory, not sure).

 

Be very carefully with lawyers promising you 90 years. Commercial leases can be longer than 30 years but that is a rare exception. The government wants to change the law for years but didn't do it yet.

 

I registered tons of leases and usufruct during more than 15 years managing a law firm. These are safe, good, but some provinces are more complex ; phuket, Hua hin, Samui, Pattaya. Why? The law is the same but these land departments often ask tea money.

What would you say to this excerpt  from PULSE:

Protected Leasehold / Corporate Freehold

What is protected leasehold property ownership in Thailand? Protected leasehold means that the owners at the estate not only have a lease for their condo, villa or other property, but they are also shareholders of the Thai limited company that owns the freehold (chanote) of the property.

Owners can therefore control the renewal and issuing of leases themselves, and do not have to worry about a lease expiring or change of terms.

This means that the leases can be renewed in perpetuity during and beyond 30+30+30 years. Protected leasehold is therefore pretty much the equivalent of Freehold Ownership in Thailand when it comes to ownership security.

[habuspasha]

1 hour ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

But we can secure 60 years with different contracts.

Are these "different contracts" the mortgages referred to here? 

 

Fortunately, however, there are far better legal means than the “Secured” Lease that do provide actual long‐term lease security and without any downside to the developer. This can be achieved by securing the pre‐paid renewal terms with a mortgage over the land plot in question. It is a simple and straightforward legal structure that provides security for the investor and, therefore, a marketing opportunity for the developer.

 

If so, how does this work?  I was under the impression that farang cannot secure mortgages.

 

[quake]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:58 PM, dayo202 said:

Usefruct agreement for life is a better option to consider 

You can have any bit of paper you want, to wave in the air.

but if the family want you out. 

They will make it so unbearable to live there,  you will just leave.

Better to right the dosh off in the first place.

Or just don't do it.

 

 

 

[Scott]

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