'We're asking for help to bring our boy home to Manchester so he's not alone as he fights for his life'

[IvorBiggun2]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think Thailand should spend more money on, enforcement of helmet laws is pretty low on the list.

What list? When a police officer stops an individual the officer should throw the book at them and not be selective in what he penalises them for.

[IvorBiggun2]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

30 % of accidents in the US involve alcohol. ( be careful how you read that!).

In Thailand it is about the same.

42% in Thailand.

[Will B Good]

Yep...........Koh Samui.......first place on my list if I were seeking gainful employment abroad.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Certainly helmet wearing is on the increase in Thailand and a good helmet is becoming a status symbol.

Remember in US and UK organisations like MAG actually campaigned AGAINST making helmets compulsory?...so idiocy is by no means the preserve of Thailand.

However you need also to look at the stats re. the efficacy  of helmet-wearing as it can only have limited results in certain accidents.

Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths. Only a fraction of this is head injuries preventable by helmets. Although it is still a significant amount.

I have to say though that the obsession of the media and contributors to this thread with only DEATHS gives a rather distorted view of the overall picture and leads to some rather bizarre generalisations on road safety.

This coupled with a massive overdose of confirmation bias and a general inability to separate anecdotal evidence from fact or theory, leads to some wildly inaccurate assumptions about road safety in Thailand 

I do not understand the sentence above in bold.

 

I can't speak to Europe, but I think it worth noting that when comparing motorcycle deaths in the US to motorcycle deaths in Thailand, that:

1. A much greater percentage of people ride motorcycles as their only transportation in Thailand.

2. The motorcycle "occupancy" is (I believe) significantly higher in Thailand. 

3. The average displacement of motorcycles in Thailand is significantly smaller. 

 

Incidentally, there are still states in the US without helmet mandates. 

[kwilco]

16 minutes ago, Mark mark said:

I heard that the personal Freedom Lobby, will not let the Police Random or otherwise, Breath test ANY Drivers on the road ? (Unless they have Cause ?) ??? So well basically a LOT of the Accidents in the US ARE, caused by Drunks, well, as Well as Speed. !!! ??? 

Random breath testing is illegal in many countries but they still manage the lowest DUI rates....   in the UK the police can stop you at any time and ask you to take a breath test ('breathalyse' you) ONLY  if: they think you've been drinking. you've committed a traffic offence. you've been involved in a road traffic accident. So they must have a reason.

 

 

[kwilco]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

I do not understand the sentence above in bold.

 

I can't speak to Europe, but I think it worth noting that when comparing motorcycle deaths in the US to motorcycle deaths in Thailand, that:

1. A much greater percentage of people ride motorcycles as their only transportation in Thailand.

2. The motorcycle "occupancy" is (I believe) significantly higher in Thailand. 

3. The average displacement of motorcycles in Thailand is significantly smaller. 

 

Incidentally, there are still states in the US without helmet mandates. 

This comparison is very complex and not very relevant.

 

In Thailand 50% of vehicles on the roads are 2 wheelers. Big bikes are a relative rarity. ( for a long time they were illegal to own or even manufacture)

In America, riders are four times more likely to get injured. Although motorcycles only make up 3% of the registered vehicles in the U.S., they contribute 14% of all traffic fatalities....but the ratio of 2 wheelers to cars is totally different from Thailand and so is the nature of their usage, mileage etc.

Thailand actually has more motorcycles than Vietnam, the difference is that in Thailand, this is accompanied by a much larger 4 wheel vehicle ownership than in V/N, a very unhealthy combination. 

[Yellowtail]

It is also worth noting that regardless of what causes an accident, if anyone involved has been drinking yet not over the legal  limit, alcohol will be listed as a contributing factor. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

While I generally agree that more police mean less crime, it also means more money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Of the things I think Thailand should spend more money on, enforcement of helmet laws is pretty low on the list.

 

As to your 90% night and day comment, that has not been my experience in greater Bangkok, but I don't doubt at night it is somewhat lower. 

Yea, that's everywhere, but bkk.   I don't think I would use 2 wheels of anyone in bkk, unless on very very back streets.  I don't even like driving the car there, and I consider myself an excellent, confident driver.  

 

Would hate to have on oops, out of province, while out & about.  Aside from no parking, usually use public trans at bkk, unless going to a mall, and off hrs.

Edited March 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[kwilco]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I do not understand the sentence above in bold.

 

I can't speak to Europe, but I think it worth noting that when comparing motorcycle deaths in the US to motorcycle deaths in Thailand, that:

1. A much greater percentage of people ride motorcycles as their only transportation in Thailand.

2. The motorcycle "occupancy" is (I believe) significantly higher in Thailand. 

3. The average displacement of motorcycles in Thailand is significantly smaller. 

 

Incidentally, there are still states in the USwh without helmet mandates. 

Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths. Only a fraction of this is head injuries preventable by helmets. Although it is still a significant amount.

 

What don't you understand?

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This comparison is very complex and not very relevant.

 

In Thailand 50% of vehicles on the roads are 2 wheelers. Big bikes are a relative rarity. ( for a long time they were illegal to own or even manufacture)

In America, riders are four times more likely to get injured. Although motorcycles only make up 3% of the registered vehicles in the U.S., they contribute 14% of all traffic fatalities....but the ratio of 2 wheelers to cars is totally different from Thailand and so is the nature of their usage, mileage etc.

Thailand actually has more motorcycles than Vietnam, the difference is that in Thailand, this is accompanied by a much larger 4 wheel vehicle ownership than in V/N, a very unhealthy combination. 

I still do not understand this from your previous post: "Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths."  

 

I assume only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents are even reported in Thailand. 

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It is also worth noting that regardless of what causes an accident, if anyone involved has been drinking yet not over the legal  limit, alcohol will be listed as a contributing factor. 

 

 

Yes anyone involved.

The initial error could be caused by another driver, yet the alcohol in the " innocent" driver who may have been driving quite correctly, might have caused a delayed reaction.

Apportioning blame is not really part of road safety...it is to do with insurance claims mostly and then legal actions.

 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths. Only a fraction of this is head injuries preventable by helmets. Although it is still a significant amount.

 

What don't you understand?

Do motorcyclists in Thailand account for 73% or 80% of all deaths? 

 

And by "all deaths" I assume you mean vehicular deaths, yes? 

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

I still do not understand this from your previous post: "Motorcyclists are part of a group of road users referred to as "vulnerable". In Thailand they account for 80% of ALL deaths...  motorcyclists account for about  73% of all deaths."  

 

I assume only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents are even reported in Thailand. 

Reporting of accidents with death, or injury etc are stats compiled by hospitals and insurance companies, the rate of reporting is very similar in most countries.

The police are not the main source of motoring stats in Thailand.

However if someone ends up dead or in hospital or has a claim or damages, against them, the accident will be reported.

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Do motorcyclists in Thailand account for 73% or 80% of all deaths? 

 

And by "all deaths" I assume you mean vehicular deaths, yes? 

"Vulnerable Road users account for 80% of deaths on Thai roads.

Motorcyclists account for 73% of deaths on Thai roads.

 

Vulnerable road users (VRU) are road users not in a car, bus or truck, generally considered to include pedestrians, motorcycle riders, cyclists, children 7-years and under, the elderly and users of mobility devices. In the event of a crash, VRUs have little to no protection from crash forces.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, kwilco said:

Reporting of accidents with death, or injury etc are stats compiled by hospitals and insurance companies, the rate of reporting is very similar in most countries.

The police are not the main source of motoring stats in Thailand.

However if someone ends up dead or in hospital or has a claim or damages, against them, the accident will be reported.

It is my position that only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents result in claims and or hospitalization. 

 

When I live in Kabinburi, a doctor in the emergency room told me 90% of emergency room patients were motorcycle. 

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yea, that's everywhere, but bkk.   I don't think I would use 2 wheels of anyone in bkk, unless on very very back streets.  I don't even like driving the car there, and I consider myself an excellent, confident driver.  

 

Would hate to have on oops, out of province, while out & about.  Aside from no parking, usually use public trans at bkk, unless going to a mall, and off hrs.

Bangkok has one of the lowest road death rates in Thailand.

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

It is my position that only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents result in claims and or hospitalization. 

 

When I live in Kabinburi, a doctor in the emergency room told me 90% of emergency room patients were motorcycle. 

Then all his patients will appear as statistics one way or another.

 

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It is my position that only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents result in claims and or hospitalization

But that is the same everywhere...if there is no death, injury or claim then the stats aren't picked up.

 

I do have a list of organisations that compile R/S stats in Thailand but as I'm in a car, I can't access it.

For meaningful stats to be compiled you need a wide range of sources.

Stats are not just numbers they are collected, collated and analysed.

There is a paper in the WHO library that explains how they compile comparative statistics for their Global reports. It's worth reading to get a picture of how Thailand falls way below international standards on this.

However anecdotal evidence from one doctor is very shake ground to make any significant conclusions.

[kwilco]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It is my position that only a small percentage of motorcycle accidents result in claims and or hospitalization. 

 

When I live in Kabinburi, a doctor in the emergency room told me 90% of emergency room patients were motorcycle. 

Take a look at the hospitals on Samui...all foreigners....thousands of them....many claiming on travel insurance....which comes back to the OP.

[Thomas KH]

There are certain people, albeit not that many, who can make a life-changing difference in this young man's life via their banking app or with a single stroke of a pen. For some, it won't even make a dent in their disposable income, let alone their ROI.

 

If I had enough financial reserves to last me a hypothetical two lifetimes, I wouldn't hesitate to cover all costs. 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

But that is the same everywhere...if there is no death, injury or claim then the stats aren't picked up.

But at least in the US, I believe it is much more likely a claim would be filed. No one is pushing their bike over to a shop that straightens it out for 200 baht. 

 

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

I do have a list of organisations that compile R/S stats in Thailand but as I'm in a car, I can't access it.

For meaningful stats to be compiled you need a wide range of sources.

Stats are not just numbers they are collected, collated and analysed.

There is a paper in the WHO library that explains how they compile comparative statistics for their Global reports. It's worth reading to get a picture of how Thailand falls way below international standards on this.

However anecdotal evidence from one doctor is very shake ground to make any significant conclusions.

I do not put much stock in one guys estimate, but the only reason I asked was that all the beds were full of motorcyclists. 

[IvorBiggun2]

26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

90% of emergency room patients were motorcycle. 

And the majority had their accident in the 'hard shoulder'. That's my understanding.

[Ralf001]

47 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Kev in Thailand passed away

 

Yeah 3 years ago and not from a scooter accident.

 

what is the relevance of you posting this ?

[Will B Good]

57 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Bangkok has one of the lowest road death rates in Thailand.

Not surprising as the average speed of a vehicle (apart from Ferraris on Sukhumvit) is about 10 mph.

[newbee2022]

It's indeed a sad story.

However, we should learn not to enter a foreign country without health/accident insurance.

Also don't put yourself in danger by using dangerous ways of transport.

So good luck his family will pay the bills.

[Rimmer]

some off topic posts and replies have been removed

[Mark mark]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

30 % of accidents in the US involve alcohol. ( be careful how you read that!).

In Thailand it is about the same.

Countries with best records are getting down below 20%.

But oddly enough stats like "alcohol" " speeding" etc don't change a lot in percentages.

I haven't looked at the US figures for couple of years but in Europe there have been some alarming rises.

A lot of this is difficult to assess at present due to the effects of Covid over nearly 3 years.

One of the major factors that is being investigated is the rise in phone, digital and media usage in 4 wheeled vehicles in particular.

Most countries, hand held is illegal, but it has been shown that even hands free can distract drivers and consuderablt interfer with reaction times. Then there is all the other digital displays available in modern vehicles.This is probably the area that is of most concern to road safety workers.

To understand this, you need to realise that speed, drink and reckless driving are not in themselves the main causes of crashes.... it is in fact human error that is the main factor .... this refers to daily minor slips that all drivers make every day... and they result in up to  93% of crashes.

 

Right On Brother !!!

[Woof999]

1 hour ago, Thomas KH said:

There are certain people, albeit not that many, who can make a life-changing difference in this young man's life via their banking app or with a single stroke of a pen. For some, it won't even make a dent in their disposable income, let alone their ROI.

 

If I had enough financial reserves to last me a hypothetical two lifetimes, I wouldn't hesitate to cover all costs. 

Well said sir. This young man made a poor choice and it has led to him and his family being in a terrible position. They don't deserve some of the hate and disrespect being directed.

[jacko45k]

Just saw on TNT and he quoted another source saying the victim himself ploughed into a pickup riding without helmet..  yet the OP in this thread said the pickup ploughed into him. The details seem to have varied in the passing of time and I am perplexed why!

[Gottfrid]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:31 PM, GinBoy2 said:

I don't want to rehash the usual travel insurance stuff, which is pretty relevant.

You don´t have to. Do you really think there is any insurance in the world that will pay up for a guy on a motorbike in a phone call, without helmet driving after drinking?