BITCOINERS, please help me to understand.

[BobBKK]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:35 AM, Neeranam said:

SWIFT is terrible 1970s technology. 

Many banks use XRP already for cross border transactions but not as many as they promised. 

A few years back, SCB used XRP for transactions between Japan and Thailand, but they changed for another crypto. 

XRP is a 'bankers' coin and many don't like it, because of that. The bitcoin maximalists obviously hate it because of this. 

I sold XRP and got into DEFI cryptos as I believe this is the future. 

I talked with a former finance minister of Thailand, who says the same, Khun Korn. 

A good punt is Omg, whose CEO is his relative, and used to work in the World Bank. 

 

I'm still a believer  ????  the court case will give it a pump whatever happens. Good luck in all things. 

[BobBKK]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:12 PM, Neeranam said:

I literally bet my house in Khon Kaen. I sold it and am renting now until BTC goes to around $200k

I bought Bitcoin last year between $16,800 and $18,800.

 

 

Smart - don't agree XRP is hopeless but you understand the crypto world whilst other, who are ignorant, scoff.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

Smart - don't agree XRP is hopeless but you understand the crypto world whilst other, who are ignorant, scoff.

There's been a veritable industry of YT hacks predicting that XRP is going to the moon for years now.

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

There's been a veritable industry of YT hacks predicting that XRP is going to the moon for years now.

That is very true AND frustrating - it was much higher than now BUT the SEC bought a frivolous case singling out XRP which should end this year. When it does USA exchanges will RELIST allowing all Americans to buy it - what do you think that will do to the price?  let alone its UTILITY

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

That is very true AND frustrating - it was much higher than now BUT the SEC bought a frivolous case singling out XRP which should end this year. When it does USA exchanges will RELIST allowing all Americans to buy it - what do you think that will do to the price?  let alone its UTILITY

I predict the price will be nothing to do with the court case and everything to do with its utility, if it has any. I said if, I'm not denying that it has utility but that's priced in.

[Dan O]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:28 AM, eisfeld said:

Very simple. Any asset is worth what other people are willing to buy it for. Nothing is directly backing Bitcoin in terms of physical assets. This is also the case for the Baht, Dollar, Euro or pretty much any other fiat currency since the backing with gold was abandoned. Physical assets in most cases will have some positive value left in the worst case (though in the extreme some might even have negative value i.e. you'll have to pay to get rid of it). As you might have noticed in the recent past, the value of a Dollar can vary quite a bit. Why? Because people changed their mind in terms of how much they value it.

 

Swissie you are calling Bitcoin just a "combination of numbers". This is a misleading way of thinking. Any information that is represented digitally is exactly that. The US nuclear launch codes are just a combination of numbers. How much do you think some evil powers would be willing to pay for them? Or how about the password to your bank account? It's all just a few bits. But there can be some real value assigned to these bits. And the value is exactly what the highest bidder might pay for it.

 

You should know because you said you traded commodities. Wait, halt. You actually didn't trade physical pork bellies. You speculated on digital derivative contracts that might then result in physical delivery or not. Actually on virtually all brokers they'll just force sell/buy the contracts on delivery date because their users don't actually want to receive or deliver these physical goods.

 

Anyone who says Bitcoin was a Ponzi Scheme does not know what the definition of a Ponzi Scheme is. It might be a terrible investment and you might lose all your money but that does not make it a Ponzi. One could argue it being a mania.

 

Now, what most people don't realize is that Bitcoin has some indirect backing. There are billions of dollars in mining hardware deployed. This creates an incentive for invested parties to keep the price as high as possible. Ironically this also represents a danger to Bitcoin because the Proof of Work mining mechanism is just incredibly wasteful in terms of energy. Bitcoin has also seen incredibly little development compared to other cryptocurrencies. Again this is a two sided sword. It made it more stable and safe but creates risk of being left behind eventually.

 

Also the only way for bitcoin to lose value is by people losing "faith" in it. Some kind of panic. Now, Bitcoin itself can't have something like a bank run because your coins can't just disappear like in a bank unless you keep them in an exchange (just don't). What could tank the value possibly is if governments were to ban it. There is also the eventually deflationary aspect to it that guarantees that over long timeframes the price has to go up as it becomes more scarce. This is the core reason why many think it's value will go up, and that in turn brings in all the other "investors" that don't understand much but don't want to miss out either.

You're on point with some of your comments and contradicting yourself with other points. Ponzi scheme is not far off of what bitcoin is dispite many fanatics liking to claim it is not. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Dan O said:

You're on point with some of your comments and contradicting yourself with other points. Ponzi scheme is not far off of what bitcoin is dispite many fanatics liking to claim it is not. 

Bitcoin, whatever it is, is not a ponzi scheme by any normal definition of the word. There is no return on owning a bitcoin, only it's resale value, nothing to do with ponxi schemes.

[BobBKK]

12 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I predict the price will be nothing to do with the court case and everything to do with its utility, if it has any. I said if, I'm not denying that it has utility but that's priced in.

High of $3.84 now lucky to be 50c so let's see.

[Sametboy2019]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

High of $3.84 now lucky to be 50c so let's see.

With a lawsuit hanging over its head for 2 years now and still in the top 10 coins I wouldn't call it lucky..

 

 

[Seppius]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

Smart - don't agree XRP is hopeless but you understand the crypto world whilst other, who are ignorant, scoff.

Interesting development yesterday (17th) relating to Ripple/XRP and the space in general

 

"Rep. Davidson To Introduce Legislation To Fire SEC Chairman For Crypto Overreach"

 

https://coinculture.com/au/policy-regulation/rep-davidson-to-introduce-legislation-to-fire-sec-chairman-for-crypto-overreach/

 

The live XRP price today is $0.515403 USD with a 24-hour trading volume of $928,616,542 USD.  That's some volume

 

Also....

 

"$1 Billion Worth of XRP Held by Uphold in Biggest Asset Holdings"

 

https://u.today/1-billion-worth-of-xrp-held-by-uphold-in-biggest-asset-holdings-details

 

 

DYOR

 

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, Sametboy2019 said:

With a lawsuit hanging over its head for 2 years now and still in the top 10 coins I wouldn't call it lucky..

 

 

Suppressed - but I could be wrong - let' see I have a bucket load

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Bitcoin, whatever it is, is not a ponzi scheme by any normal definition of the word. There is no return on owning a bitcoin, only it's resale value, nothing to do with ponxi schemes.

Correct the only value is if the next guy behind you buys it for more than you since there's no actual asset value or govt backing to support it. If it suddenly collapses which it has a number of times there's no asset value, even at a reduced amount to go after. 

 

Block chain software and mining equip mean nothing to it's value. That's about as close to a Ponzi scheme as you can get. 

 

In Ponzi schemes the scenerio you get is the same. There's nothing behind it other than the value the next guy pays, inflating the perceived value to you.  Once demand\interest dries up there's nothing there left to go after

Edited April 18, 2023 by Dan O
Spelling

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, Hummin said:

There is some ethical issues connected to bitcoin, but I do not expect anyone who is involved to admit there is complicated issues connected to bitcoin itself, the trading, and the methods of use who support grey markeds and illegal markeds.

Do you mean like the $US?

I heard there is a lot of money laundering, drug deals, kidnappings, arms deals, etc that ask for $US. Also, so many Ponzi schemes and scams.

[Neeranam]

39 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Suppressed - but I could be wrong - let' see I have a bucket load

You are right IMHO, good to have some, huge upside. 

 

Check out EGLD(Multiversx)  - HUGE upside there. 

 

Another one is TAP.

 

Bitcoin is a great store of value but I can't see it going much more than x7 from here in 3 years. The low altcoins can go x100+, so wiser to have a few of them.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Neeranam

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Dan O said:

You're on point with some of your comments and contradicting yourself with other points. Ponzi scheme is not far off of what bitcoin is dispite many fanatics liking to claim it is not. 

Thanks, if you could point out where I contradicted myself I'd appreciate it. Some points I raised might seem as contradictory but I have just tried to show that some aspects can speak pro and some contra Bitcoin. And some even both at the same time.

 

Regarding the Ponzi: see what ozimoron said. It really does not fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme even though some shills might try to make it one.

 

45 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Correct the only value is if the next guy behind you buys it for more than you since there's no actual asset value or govt backing to support it. If it suddenly collapses which it has a number of times there's no asset value, even at a reduced amount to go after. 

 

Block chain software and mining equip mean nothing to it's value. That's about as close to a Ponzi scheme as you can get. 

 

In Ponzi schemes the scenerio you get is the same. There's nothing behind it other than the value the next guy pays, inflating the perceived value to you.  Once demand\interest dries up there's nothing there left to go after

I think you are overlooking the fact that Bitcoin itself is not promising any gains. Bitcoin never positioned itself as an investment. There are crypto shills that do that. For a Ponzi scheme to be such you need to have a promise of returns which are then paid out by future investors. By your way of thinking a piece of art would also be a Ponzi scheme. Its intrinsic value is near nil but can reach prices in the millions. Why? Because people value it as such. But since it doesn't promise returns it's not a Ponzi.

 

Another example, let's take gold. Gold is a pretty expensive commodity. Why is the price so high and does it match the residual value if you take out the "store of value", "investment" etc. pp. angle. For a private person gold itself has very little value. I'm not sure what you'd do with it. The industrial sector has some use for it but not anywhere near the level to justify these high prices and there would be alternatives for most applications. Is it because it is rare? Well Bitcoin also is. Is it because it's expensive to mine? Well Bitcoin also is. Is gold backed by a government? No. So is gold a Ponzi?

Edited April 18, 2023 by eisfeld

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Thanks, if you could point out where I contradicted myself I'd appreciate it. Some points I raised might seem as contradictory but I have just tried to show that some aspects can speak pro and some contra Bitcoin. And some even both at the same time.

 

Regarding the Ponzi: see what ozimoron said. It really does not fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme even though some shills might try to make it one.

 

I think you are overlooking the fact that Bitcoin itself is not promising any gains. Bitcoin never positioned itself as an investment. There are crypto shills that do that. For a Ponzi scheme to be such you need to have a promise of returns which are then paid out by future investors. By your way of thinking a piece of art would also be a Ponzi scheme. Its intrinsic value is near nil but can reach prices in the millions. Why? Because people value it as such. But since it doesn't promise returns it's not a Ponzi.

Anyone who thinks bitcoin is a Ponzi really don't deserve any communication. 

I have a good friend who said it was a Ponzi when I bought it in early 2017, and still calls it a Ponzi, total ignorance, resentment, sour grapes.

[ozimoron]

51 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Correct the only value is if the next guy behind you buys it for more than you since there's no actual asset value or govt backing to support it. If it suddenly collapses which it has a number of times there's no asset value, even at a reduced amount to go after. 

 

Block chain software and mining equip mean nothing to it's value. That's about as close to a Ponzi scheme as you can get. 

 

In Ponzi schemes the scenerio you get is the same. There's nothing behind it other than the value the next guy pays, inflating the perceived value to you.  Once demand\interest dries up there's nothing there left to go after

Does this sound even remotely like a description of what crypto is?

 

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays existing investors with funds collected from new investors.

 

 

[Hummin]

33 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you mean like the $US?

I heard there is a lot of money laundering, drug deals, kidnappings, arms deals, etc that ask for $US. Also, so many Ponzi schemes and scams.

we have been through this numbers of time now, and it starts getting boring. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

we have been through this numbers of time now, and it starts getting boring. 

Indeed. Bitcoin is traceable, $US are not. 

Common misconception, and something the haters say.

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Indeed. Bitcoin is traceable, $US are not. 

Common misconception, and something the haters say.

and the use of haters is also kind of old

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

and the use of haters is also kind of old

Ironically, the haters are always old ????

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Does this sound even remotely like a description of what crypto is?

 

A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays existing investors with funds collected from new investors.

 

 

you can mince words as much as you like, which is what crypto junkies all claim. That's not even a full explanation of a Ponzi Scheme either but doesn't really change anything here.

 

it's extremely close to being a combination of a Ponzi scheme and Pyramid scheme as it doesn't have asset value supporting it. It only has the value the next person in line pays, no assets to value to establish it's worth or increase. In default there are no assets to go after the value evaporates.

 

Believe what you want, many have made lots of money on it and tons have lost everything, the same that happened with Ponzi and Pyramid schemes. 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Dan O said:

you can mince words as much as you like, which is what crypto junkies all claim. That's not even a full explanation of a Ponzi Scheme either but doesn't really change anything here.

 

it's extremely close to being a combination of a Ponzi scheme and Pyramid scheme as it doesn't have asset value supporting it. It only has the value the next person in line pays, no assets to value to establish it's worth or increase. In default there are no assets to go after the value evaporates.

 

Believe what you want, many have made lots of money on it and tons have lost everything, the same that happened with Ponzi and Pyramid schemes. 

I have no BTC investments whatsoever. I'm simply pointing out that your characterisation of BTC as a ponzi scheme is just more meaningless buzz words which aren't rooted in the English language as most understand it.

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

Thanks, if you could point out where I contradicted myself I'd appreciate it. Some points I raised might seem as contradictory but I have just tried to show that some aspects can speak pro and some contra Bitcoin. And some even both at the same time.

 

Regarding the Ponzi: see what ozimoron said. It really does not fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme even though some shills might try to make it one.

 

I think you are overlooking the fact that Bitcoin itself is not promising any gains. Bitcoin never positioned itself as an investment. There are crypto shills that do that. For a Ponzi scheme to be such you need to have a promise of returns which are then paid out by future investors. By your way of thinking a piece of art would also be a Ponzi scheme. Its intrinsic value is near nil but can reach prices in the millions. Why? Because people value it as such. But since it doesn't promise returns it's not a Ponzi.

 

Another example, let's take gold. Gold is a pretty expensive commodity. Why is the price so high and does it match the residual value if you take out the "store of value", "investment" etc. pp. angle. For a private person gold itself has very little value. I'm not sure what you'd do with it. The industrial sector has some use for it but not anywhere near the level to justify these high prices and there would be alternatives for most applications. Is it because it is rare? Well Bitcoin also is. Is it because it's expensive to mine? Well Bitcoin also is. Is gold backed by a government? No. So is gold a Ponzi?

This is a circular discussion and isn't easily discussed and explained in a forum like this. I believe I gave you the credit in your explanation but now your trying to mix different types of investments as a comparison leaving out the one main factor you even mentioned yourself. There is no asset behind it other than perception. With art, gold, land, stocks bonds etc.... any other item you pick there is an asset that is supporting that value, rightfully or wrongfully value wise, ie: my idea of what a painting is worth is different than you BUT there is still a painting involved. Granted the value may fluctuate but there is still an asset their of some value. 

 

With bitcoin you have NO asset to back it worse case other than the perception implied in the bitcoin\digital market as long as the next guys in line are convinced it's a great investment. so we'll just have to disagree about it. 

[Dan O]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I have no BTC investments whatsoever. I'm simply pointing out that your characterisation of BTC as a ponzi scheme is just more meaningless buzz words which aren't rooted in the English language as most understand it.

do some more research. I have nothing in this game either but Im not massaging words and meanings to exclude or avoid a concept or using it as a "buzzword" which is pretty much gaslighting. Plenty of articles available claiming both sides. you pick the one that fits what you want to convey

[Dan O]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Bitcoin, whatever it is, is not a ponzi scheme by any normal definition of the word. There is no return on owning a bitcoin, only it's resale value, nothing to do with ponxi schemes.

so a resale value is not a return or loss on your investment? now that's some double speak

[Dan O]

Swissie,

 

Arent you glad you asked about this topic? You'll never get a straight answer, just a bunch of differing opinions about what a word means, what is value, is gold safe, will govt collapse, what about a run on a bank, What does the concept of Ponzi mean, are there Pyramid Schemes?    My best advice is act cautiously and carefully regardless of what you do and never invest more than you can afford to lose completely.

 

Good Luck

[Dan O]

17 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Well yes, that's why I said usually. And of course in crypto you have just as many fails. I just wanted to show how similar the crypto and traditional finance systems are in some regards because many of the features of cryptocurrencies are shown as a downside while ignoring that it's the same in the one the people already have been using.

 

People who understand how a system works can make more money with it than people who don't understand it. Applies to nearly everything ????

Not quite true as banks are insured at least to some limits and have assets on their books that carry value even if they fail whereas crypto does not.

[Neeranam]

Critical point for Bitcoin, if you are interested. 

If it breaks 30,500, it should break all resistance until 60,000+, might take 3-6 months though. if it doesn't break 30,500, maybe a drop to retest 28,000.

[ozimoron]

59 minutes ago, Dan O said:

so a resale value is not a return or loss on your investment? now that's some double speak

You simply don't understand what the concept of a ponzi scheme is. It isn't any asset that you can buy or sell once. A ponzi scheme pays a regular return on investment. Like interest in a bank.

Edited April 18, 2023 by ozimoron