LTR Wealthy Pensioner "top-up to $80K" passive income using bonds, annuities, etc. thread.

[Pib]

13 hours ago, Yumthai said:

If you are already living and being tax resident in Thailand (you just need to be present at least 180 days/year in Thailand) and tax resident nowhere else, earn dividends from for instance US stocks/ETFs held on a broker registered outside Thailand and do not remit this money the year it has been earned then you have nothing to declare in Thailand and could eventually end up paying tax nowhere (except 15% WHT applied on US stocks dividend).

You can't show any tax return but of course can show bank/broker statements.

 

In that case, would this income qualify? I assume it's better to directly ask BOI in order to have a definitive answer.

 

All I can say is BoI generally wants to see a tax return/tax documents "to help support/validate" the primary income evidence docs you provide.   The primary evidence docs will be docs that the "paying entity" makes available to you like say a periodic statement, annual tax related doc, etc.  

 

Tax systems and laws vary from country to country....in some countries like the U.S. a person's worldwide income is taxed (but there are foreign income exemptions) and if you don't make a certain amount (usually down around $20K/year) you don't even have to file a tax return but that also means you don't make enough to apply for a LTR visa.......while other countries will only tax income from the country you have designated as your domicile and not tax any foreign income.........and some countries the govt may automatically generate a tax return for a person........or the person may need to submit a self-assessment tax return.   So many possibilities as to if a person has to submit an annual tax return (or his home country govt is doing it for him and he can obtain a copy of it), what income is tax reportable, etc....etc....etc.    

 

The March 2023 BoI LTR Required Docs checklist now list two years of tax returns as some of the mandatory docs because "most" people will have submitted a tax return OR can get a tax transcript from their country of tax domicile.  If a person does not need to submit a tax return each year he'll have to explain to BoI why in his case no tax return was required....like providing a snapshot/quote from his home country tax laws/instructions....just something that will satisfy you can not provide a tax document....can only provide income evidence that come direct from income paying entity.    BoI is no dumbie when it come to tax documents for different countries because the BoI deals everyday with foreigners wanting to do business in Thailand, qualify for a certain type of BoI visa, etc. 

 

In the LTR mega thread there is a pretty good Youtube video which involves an interview with a key BoI LTR representative....it talks about income evidence, tax returns, etc.....see Youtube link and snapshots  below.  Also below is snapshot where the BoI says providing in income tax return(s) is mandatory (the little O in the right column means it's a mandatory doc); however, if you cannot provide a tax return because maybe you were not required to submit a return per your tax domicile country then BoI would probably say, "OK, I believe you but I would like doc so-in-so to validate your income."   BoI is flexible when it comes to income evidence and tax returns since such documents & requirements vary greatly between countries.

 

 

Snapshot of BoI LTR Required Docs

 

 

 

 

YouTube Weblink.  Interview with a key BoI LTR representative.   See the area where they talk income evidence and tax return.  Basically, if you can not provide an income tax return you will be asked for more income evidence.    Still a pretty accurate LTR video with two exceptions where it says buying govt bonds is a snap/easy (for a Thai yes, but not so much for a foreigner) and LTR holders hopefully being allowed to own land which later got squashed/rescinded by the Thai govt).

 

Definitely Contact BoI about your question(s)....use the Contact link on the BoI LTR website.   Based on my personal experience where I have sent some curiosity questions their way they have responded within a few hours to a few business days.....much, much faster than when the LTR program kicked off in late 2022 and it was not uncommon for the BoI to takes weeks to respond (and maybe not even respond).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Pib

[Felton Jarvis]

No “wealthy pensioner” is going to come here. What POSSIBLE advantage would they have?  The ability to do ninety-day reports???  Thai Immigration has completely lost the plot.

[ThailandRyan]

6 minutes ago, Felton Jarvis said:

No “wealthy pensioner” is going to come here. What POSSIBLE advantage would they have?  The ability to do ninety-day reports???  Thai Immigration has completely lost the plot.

Advantages are is that there are no 90 day reports needed, as a person who has a LTR Visa only needs to do an annual report. The Visa is also a  10 year multiple entry visa and the price is only 50K Thb in total.  If you qualify its a great deal.  I have one, the LTR-P or wealthy pensioner visa.  There are many people already here who now have the LTR Visa. Makes traveling in and out easy using the Fastrack lines as well.

 

This Visa is approved through the BOI.

[Pib]

Just now, Felton Jarvis said:

No “wealthy pensioner” is going to come here. What POSSIBLE advantage would they have?  The ability to do ninety-day reports???  Thai Immigration has completely lost the plot.

Many wealthy pensioners are already here....a good amount switched from Non-O 1 year type visas to the 10 year LTR visa ( really  a 5+5 visa).  If lucky enough to have the required pension/retirement investment accts a LTR visa is a good way to go....no annual worry over renewing your visa/extension.

 

 

[Pink Mist]

An off topic troll post has been removed 

[retiree]

OP here, re-upping my hope that somebody can post their actual experience with the BOI re using a current balance statement from an "official" retirement account (such as a US IRA), even if for tax reasons one is not currently receiving any yearly distribution.    Would $800,000 IRA assets alone do the trick, even without passive income?    Is there some combination guideline? 

 

Yes, this is discussed clearly in the YouTube video (see first page of this thread, at 14:05 Can you qualify with retirement savings?) but afaik still isn't mentioned in any of the online or print documentation. 

-- Retiree

[Pink Mist]

6 minutes ago, retiree said:

OP here, re-upping my hope that somebody can post their actual experience with the BOI re using a current balance statement from an "official" retirement account (such as a US IRA), even if for tax reasons one is not currently receiving any yearly distribution.    Would $800,000 IRA assets alone do the trick, even without passive income?    Is there some combination guideline? 

 

Yes, this is discussed clearly in the YouTube video (see first page of this thread, at 14:05 Can you qualify with retirement savings?) but afaik still isn't mentioned in any of the online or print documentation. 

-- Retiree

Do you have the BOI's number? This way you can call them directly and talk to someone to help you.

 

Here is the number in case you do not have it. I have it on my contacts on my phone as I have had to make many calls to them.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, retiree said:

OP here, re-upping my hope that somebody can post their actual experience with the BOI re using a current balance statement from an "official" retirement account (such as a US IRA), even if for tax reasons one is not currently receiving any yearly distribution.    Would $800,000 IRA assets alone do the trick, even without passive income?    Is there some combination guideline? 

 

Yes, this is discussed clearly in the YouTube video (see first page of this thread, at 14:05 Can you qualify with retirement savings?) but afaik still isn't mentioned in any of the online or print documentation. 

-- Retiree

Your are right that the level of detail you are looking in your particular case is not addressed in the BoI LTR website briefings/documentation/etc.,....only talked about briefly by the BoI rep in that YouTube video.   Your case would probably fall in the area of "flexibility" that the BoI may offer on a "case-by-case" basis.   I expect the details of  flexibility that BoI sometimes provides is for internal office use, varies from application to application, and subject to change.   

 

But I don't remember reading any crossfeed on social media platforms from a LTR applicant who based the "great majority" (i.e.., way over half) of their annual income on a retirement investment "which the person has not started drawing from yet."  To me the way you describe your situation this is the situation you are talking about. 

 

In the video Jane's situation she was already drawing the majority of the $80K annual requirement but had a big retirement investment she had not started drawing on yet.   Instead of just being well-off on paper (i.e., having a big untouched investment) she was already drawing a healthy annual amount from other income sources and also had that big retirement investment to increase her annual income in the outyears.  

 

As Pink Mist recommended you should contact BoI and see what they say.  Call or use the online Contact form....detail your income situation as much as possible.....hopefully you'll get an answer back in a few business days to a week.   Good luck.

 

 

[Misty]

8 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

Advantages are is that there are no 90 day reports needed, as a person who has a LTR Visa only needs to do an annual report. The Visa is also a  10 year multiple entry visa and the price is only 50K Thb in total.  If you qualify its a great deal.  I have one, the LTR-P or wealthy pensioner visa.  There are many people already here who now have the LTR Visa. Makes traveling in and out easy using the Fastrack lines as well.

 

This Visa is approved through the BOI.

I agree with all the LTR visa advantages listed above. And one more advantage - the most important one for me - you can legally work if you have the LTR visa.  If you work for a foreign company, there's no need for a digital work permit. If you work for a Thai company, you can get a digital work permit and there's no 4 Thai employees needed.

 

The ability to work legally with no Thai employee requirement is a huge improvement over other Thai visa types.  Many people of "retirement" age wish to continue to work, either out of interest or necessity. The Thai NonO for retirement doesn't allow this, nor does an Elite card nor tourist visa.

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

21 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

No “wealthy pensioner” is going to come here. What POSSIBLE advantage would they have?  The ability to do ninety-day reports???  Thai Immigration has completely lost the plot.

I know loads of them who live here.

[Captain Monday]

On 5/27/2023 at 12:40 PM, Felton Jarvis said:

No “wealthy pensioner” is going to come here. What POSSIBLE advantage would they have?  The ability to do ninety-day reports???  Thai Immigration has completely lost the plot.

Where would they live then? What xountry? What visa is available?

[Felton Jarvis]

1 hour ago, Captain Monday said:

Where would they live then? What country? What visa is available?

Cambodia looks good. Easy Visa terms. No bank deposit.

[Felton Jarvis]

I can find no LTR visa available for fifty thousand baht total. I have checked the LTR page and I see

nothing in this price category. At 34 thousand US dollars, I hardly qualify as a “Wealthy Pensioner”. Not sure where you are getting your figures from.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Pink Mist
Misquoted and mixed posted quote removed

[Pink Mist]

3 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

I can find no LTR visa available for fifty thousand baht total. I have checked the LTR page and I see

nothing in this price category. At 34 thousand US dollars, I hardly qualify as a “Wealthy Pensioner”. Not sure where you are getting your figures from.

https://ltr.boi.go.th/

 

Here's your LTR visa link issued through the BOI.

 

The price is 50k Thb here in Thailand, not 34k USD. Outside of Thailand, if your making payment for it, it may be a different price but that is based upon currency exchange rates listed.

 

Best to take a look so you understand. This is not the Thai Elite Visa.

 

The LTR had 4 categories. The Wealthy Pensioner is the one I have. If you make 80k USD a year either by a pension or other avenues you qualify with only needing to carry the required insurance.

 

This program was started last September, many of us here have moved to this visa class as we qualified and doing an annual extension and/or obtaining a work permit was tenuous.  

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

@Felton JarvisAs the above post indicates you need to look at the BOI LTR website.  There is also a current running OP, a long one, but full of useful information after you wade past the naysayers.

 

 

 

[Felton Jarvis]

Moot point since I never made 80 thousand dollars a year even while I was working. My top salary before retirement was a pathetic 40 thousand USD a year. In retirement my income is 34 thousand USD or around 98 thousand baht a month.  I don’t qualify for any kind of long-term visa. Thailand is slowly forcing me to move to Cambodia, where the terms are easy.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Moot point since I never made 80 thousand dollars a year even while I was working. My top salary before retirement was a pathetic 40 thousand USD a year. In retirement my income is 34 thousand USD or around 98 thousand baht a month.  I don’t qualify for any kind of long-term visa. Thailand is slowly forcing me to move to Cambodia, where the terms are easy.

If you can maintain 800,000 THB (about ~$23,000 US$ equivalent) in a Thai bank, then you should be fine with your income, under a Non-Immigrant Type-O Visa.

 

The LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa is targeted at a difference audience than yourself, ...  but having typed that IMHO there is nothing wrong with pensioners matching your income levels living in Thailand (if they meet the requirements for such as the non-immigrant Type-O visa (for reason of retirement)). 

 

Your income is still excellent compared to the average Thai and I think the money coming into the country is good for the country. 

[Pink Mist]

A Baiting Troll post and reply have been removed as well as a new personal attack.  

 

Stay civil or face a posting suspension.

 

9. You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages. You will respect other members and post in a civil manner. Personal attacks, insults or hate speech posted on the forum or sent by private message are not allowed.

[captpkapoor]

On 5/25/2023 at 7:29 PM, Pib said:

1.  Yes.  And to prove the actual value it's not based on "what you think the condo is now worth" but based on Dept of Land documentation such is the OrChor 16 document which is a document you and the seller completed during the condo purchase and states the agreed to selling price.    Below is a partial snapshot of a OrChor16 which includes the paragraph noting the agreed to price.   In the BoI Checklist of Required Docs you'll also see the OrChor16 as one of the required docs when using your residence as proof of investment in Thailand.

 

2.   It does not matter if your pension/fixed income is home country or Thailand based....in fact, I expect most LTR Wealthy Pensioner applicants are solely using home country generated pension/fixed income (I sure did)....say for a Wealthy Pensioner application of at least $80K USD equivalent/year.   If you have a shortfall in meeting the minimum LTR income requirements via pension/fixed income, like saying having between $40K but less than $80K you can make up the difference/shortfall via purchase of govt bonds of at least $250K USD equivalent for at least 5 years, Foreign Direct Investment, or Property Investment.  See the BoI LTR weblink/snapshot at bottom for summary details...and the BoI LTR Required Docs Checklist below shows more details. The BoI LTR webpage has full info in various areas....various level of detail.

 

Of course bonds can have varying interest rates, maturity length, and interest payment intervals,  but right now Thai govt bonds are typically paying approximately 2.50-3.0%.   Like a 23 Apr 2023 Bangkok Post news article titled, "Government bonds worth Bt40B readied" said a 7 year govt bond would pay 2.70% per year with interest paid every three months....and a 10 year bond would pay 2.60% per year with interest paid every 6 months.   Now keep in in mind that 15% of each interest payment will be withheld for tax....like getting a Bt10K gross interest payment will result in Bt1.5K being withheld for tax resulting in a net of Bt8.5K.  But you can get that  Bt1.5K withholding tax refunded each year by filing a Thai tax return/refund request which quite a few foreigners do who have tax withheld from their Thai bank deposit interest payments.

 

 

 

OrChor16 partial snapshat

 

 

 

BoI weblink to and partial snapshot of Wealthy Pensioner Required Docs

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Required-Documents-for-Qualification-Endorsement-for-Wealthy-pensioner-16-03-66.pdf

 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/index.html#what

 

 

Many many thanks, Mr Pib, you've gone to a great deal of trouble, and given excellent detail and clarification. May I DM you when I return to Thailand and start the process?

[Pink Mist]

3 hours ago, captpkapoor said:

Many many thanks, Mr Pib, you've gone to a great deal of trouble, and given excellent detail and clarification. May I DM you when I return to Thailand and start the process?

You can start the process before returning to Thailand. If you have all of the needed paperwork or maybe missing something, the BOI as they review the application will notify you what more is needed and you can add it by uploading it.

[Pib]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:37 AM, captpkapoor said:

Please clarify:-

1) If I had purchased my condo in Bangkok for approx 10 M thb in 2013, and have ownership documents in my name, would that go towards meeting one of their requirements? 

2) I do have passive income, but that is in my home country i.e. my pension and other rental proceeds etc come to my bank account at home; so I can buy the govt bonds here to meet the requirements, of what value do I need? And what is the interest on them, paid out at what frequency?

 

Many thanks for your help.

 

20 hours ago, captpkapoor said:

Many many thanks, Mr Pib, you've gone to a great deal of trouble, and given excellent detail and clarification. May I DM you when I return to Thailand and start the process?

Sure...you can DM me, but don't get mad if I just respond by a quote from the BoI LTR website as over the last several months the info posted on the website clears up quite a few issues/questions people use to have about applying for an LTR visa.  Documents on the LTR website like the Required Documents Checklist provide very good info/clarification when added to the other info on the website.  Just review all the LTR website pulldown menus.

 

Since you bought a Thai condo for Bt10M (approx $290K USD) and if you are applying for a Wealthy Pensioner LTR visa then to qualify income-wise you will need at least $40K in pension/fixed type income like the pension and real estate income you mentioned above....your past condo investment should satisfy the at least $250K investment in Thailand when not making at least $80K in pension/fixed income per year.  If making $80K in pension/fixed income no investment is needed.    Remember, this income can be worldwide....not a baht needs to be income from Thailand...can be income from/kept in any country.   Assuming the condo is only in your name and assuming you can meet the medical coverage requirement, sounds like you would be a shoe-in for an LTR visa.  

 

I would recommend you submit all required docs with the initial application with the possible exception of the medical coverage proof as the BoI LTR doc submission checklist does say the medical coverage document can be submitted later on since if using a medical policy vs self-insuring you may need to work with your insurance company to ensure you have at least 10 months left on the policy from date of LTR application.   But the application will not receive final approval until all required docs are provided.   

 

And don't worry, if you do not submit some required doc or BoI decides they want a certain doc from you in your particular case they will send you an Additional Document Request via your LTR online acct/email.....your application is not rejected/disapproved.  Now  your application will then go into a hold status for X-amount of time until you provide the requested doc(s) and may have to go back a few steps in the application review process which could add weeks/months to the application review process...but it seems applications now days are being processed a lot faster that when the LTR program kicked off in later 2022.  Seems if you get an Additional Doc request now days and then promptly provide it that it only sets you application back a few days to a week.....although BoI does say it could set your application back 20 "working/business days."    Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pink Mist]

6 hours ago, Pib said:

 

Sure...you can DM me, but don't get mad if I just respond by a quote from the BoI LTR website as over the last several months the info posted on the website clears up quite a few issues/questions people use to have about applying for an LTR visa.  Documents on the LTR website like the Required Documents Checklist provide very good info/clarification when added to the other info on the website.  Just review all the LTR website pulldown menus.

 

Since you bought a Thai condo for Bt10M (approx $290K USD) and if you are applying for a Wealthy Pensioner LTR visa then to qualify income-wise you will need at least $40K in pension/fixed type income like the pension and real estate income you mentioned above....your past condo investment should satisfy the at least $250K investment in Thailand when not making at least $80K in pension/fixed income per year.  If making $80K in pension/fixed income no investment is needed.    Remember, this income can be worldwide....not a baht needs to be income from Thailand...can be income from/kept in any country.   Assuming the condo is only in your name and assuming you can meet the medical coverage requirement, sounds like you would be a shoe-in for an LTR visa.  

 

I would recommend you submit all required docs with the initial application with the possible exception of the medical coverage proof as the BoI LTR doc submission checklist does say the medical coverage document can be submitted later on since if using a medical policy vs self-insuring you may need to work with your insurance company to ensure you have at least 10 months left on the policy from date of LTR application.   But the application will not receive final approval until all required docs are provided.   

 

And don't worry, if you do not submit some required doc or BoI decides they want a certain doc from you in your particular case they will send you an Additional Document Request via your LTR online acct/email.....your application is not rejected/disapproved.  Now  your application will then go into a hold status for X-amount of time until you provide the requested doc(s) and may have to go back a few steps in the application review process which could add weeks/months to the application review process...but it seems applications now days are being processed a lot faster that when the LTR program kicked off in later 2022.  Seems if you get an Additional Doc request now days and then promptly provide it that it only sets you application back a few days to a week.....although BoI does say it could set your application back 20 "working/business days."    Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

Very nicely put @Pib. Nothing left out at all.