Englishman fights for his life after motorbike crash in Phuket, Thailand

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

15 hours ago, stevenl said:

If the insurance offered 'for free' in a state hospital I'm sure many would prefer to use their own private insurance.

I was talking more about people that actually pay the bill with their own money, but many would quit buying travel insurance if medical care was free, yes?

Would they ??? I guess some would, but people still use travel insurance to cover for other loss (delay, cancelled flights, lost baggage etc), additionally, many would still keep their travel insurance which ensures treatment at a private facility (depending of level of cover obviously).

But.. you seem to be presenting the notion that IF emergency healthcare is free people will abuse the system - however, people do no deliberately get into accidents... thus the numbers and % medical cost burden compared to tourist income will still be incredibly low and readily offset by the vast income made from tourism.

IMO - such a system is a win-win - it protects those who have no cover or who's cover was invalidated and shines a positive light on Thai Tourism, the optics of such a policy would be excellent...

.. This is one way Thailand could ‘court’ increased tourism (along with getting rid of dual pricing and such polices etc).... Forward thinking !!!!....

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

15 hours ago, stevenl said:

The principle of insurance is that many pay a bit for the few that need it.

No, the principle of insurance is that many pay a bit in the event that they are one of the few that need it.

Both are correct...

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

...perhaps a system of no fault insurance that was for the bike, not the rider. One that is built into the cost of the rental. Shops that do not pay for it are then liable for any damages or bills caused by uninsured riders on their rented bikes. Might raise the cost of rentals by a hundred baht or so a day, but would cover tragic situations like this.

That idea only covers motorcyclists.. what if an ‘uninsured person’ tripped on an uneven paving slab and whacked their head, ended up in ICU etc ???

There needs to be blanket policy that covers everyone, regardless of nationality and activity.

The Fugitive · May 10, 2023

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

That idea only covers motorcyclists.. what if an ‘uninsured person’ tripped on an uneven paving slab and whacked their head, ended up in ICU etc ???

There needs to be blanket policy that covers everyone, regardless of nationality and activity.

Agree completely. Unfortunately, Governments are always going to say why should we pay for treatment of foreigners? Disregarding the receipts from tourism and arguing that's what travel insurance is for.

kwilco · May 10, 2023

4 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Perhaps not relevant but an illustration. A cousin who is Welsh was on holiday in Germany. Whilst walking upon a pavement she was mown down by a crazy taxi driver. The amount of ironwork required to repair her skeleton was incredible. All superbly done in Germany and covered by her EHIC and, of course, travel insurance. Four years later, the last of the ironwork was removed, for free, under UK National Health Service. If advocating emergency treatment should be free, need to clarify whether that is immediate life saving only or to include several follow up operations to render the patient mobile again, as was the case here.

Emergency treatment is pretty well defined. But people are not machines and every case is different.

If a patient receives top quality treatment at the start then as you point out further treatment can be undertaken in the home country as soon as the patient can travel.

The problem is that if due to financial restrictions the patient is not given certain treatments in time it compounds the situation and makes future treatment less effective. or more complicated.,

It is my belief that recovering funds is not as difficult as some would imagine - Thailand either should have a fund for this, or an insurance check or reciprocal agreements with foreign governments.

It isn't only road crashes that are the problem, people have "accidents" on holiday (accident = unexpected event?) of all types - in swimming pools, hiking, dining, massages and medical tourism.

Most people are insured but it is the few that slip through the net that need to be dealt with in a humane and responsible way.

Edited May 10, 2023 by kwilco

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

20 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Emergency treatment is pretty well defined. But people are not machines and every case is different.

If a patient receives top quality treatment at the start then as you point out further treatment can be undertaken in the home country as soon as the patient can travel.

The problem is that if due to financial restrictions the patient is not given certain treatments in time it compounds the situation and makes future treatment less effective. or more complicated.,

It is my belief that recovering funds is not as difficult as some would imagine - Thailand either should have a fund for this, or an insurance check or reciprocal agreements with foreign governments.

It isn't only road crashes that are the problem, people have "accidents" on holiday (accident = unexpected event?) of all types - in swimming pools, hiking, dining, massages and medical tourism.

Most people are insured but it is the few that slip through the net that need to be dealt with in a humane and responsible way.

Its practically impossible for Thai hospital to get the funds from people who have left Thailand and are back in their home Country or they would have to hire foreign Lawyers to chase those non payers down .

Giving non insured people the same treatment as non insured people will just encourage people NOT to get insured, because it wouldn't be worth it .

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could be treated in the best possible way , but someone needs to pay for it all

kwilco · May 10, 2023

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Its practically impossible for Thai hospital to get the funds from people who have left Thailand and are back in their home Country or they would have to hire foreign Lawyers to chase those non payers down .

Giving non insured people the same treatment as non insured people will just encourage people NOT to get insured, because it wouldn't be worth it .

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could be treated in the best possible way , but someone needs to pay for it all

as ever completely missed the point and no idea of the reality - obviously at some point you have or will suffer from sub-par medical care but you won't have any idea it happeed.

IvorBiggun2 · May 10, 2023

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could be treated in the best possible way , but someone needs to pay for it all

I'd imagine the Thai government makes enough monies from tourism to offset the cost of emergency treatment for the uninsured. I know it's wrong but what else can be done?

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Its practically impossible for Thai hospital to get the funds from people who have left Thailand and are back in their home Country or they would have to hire foreign Lawyers to chase those non payers down .

However, there have been numerous reports of ’non-payers’ being prevented from leaving hospitals.

Additionally, those in serious need of care have had their treatment delayed or have even been refused treatment because they have not been able to show funding.

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Giving non insured people the same treatment as non insured people will just encourage people NOT to get insured, because it wouldn't be worth it .

Will it also encourage them to go out and have accidents ???.... Of course, there will always be some who are encouraged not to get insured, however, that number would still be a ‘drop in the ocean’ compared to the aggregate income from Tourist on a whole - the cost of treatment for the uninsured is relatively insignificant in terms of percentage of tourist income.

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could be treated in the best possible way , but someone needs to pay for it all

Tourism can pay for it !!!...

Instead of looking at this from a what is lost perspective, Thailand should be looking at this from a what can be ‘gained’ from the perspective of better optics and attracting more tourism.

torturedsole · May 10, 2023

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could be treated in the best possible way , but someone needs to pay for it all

Agreed and hospitals aren't going to pay for it.

Pink Mist · May 10, 2023

Of topic bickering posts trying to drag the US and its medical policies for treating patients into the OP have been removed. Stay on Topic and do not attempt to hijack the OP by moving it off-topic.

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2. Do not post off-topic responses as they can often hijack the topic.

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

However, there have been numerous reports of ’non-payers’ being prevented from leaving hospitals.

Additionally, those in serious need of care have had their treatment delayed or have even been refused treatment because they have not been able to show funding.

Will it also encourage them to go out and have accidents ???.... Of course, there will always be some who are encouraged not to get insured, however, that number would still be a ‘drop in the ocean’ compared to the aggregate income from Tourist on a whole - the cost of treatment for the uninsured is relatively insignificant in terms of percentage of tourist income.

Tourism can pay for it !!!...

Instead of looking at this from a what is lost perspective, Thailand should be looking at this from a what can be ‘gained’ from the perspective of better optics and attracting more tourism.

Tourists are able to pay for the medical treatment of others be willingly contributing to the gofundme pages of the accident victims .

Should the Thai government introduce a tourist tax , where tourists are taxed, to pay for the medical treatment of those uninsured ?

ThailandRyan · May 10, 2023

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Tourists are able to pay for the medical treatment of others be willingly contributing to the gofundme pages of the accident victims .

Should the Thai government introduce a tourist tax , where tourists are taxed, to pay for the medical treatment of those uninsured ?

Are they not trying to do that with the proposed 300 baht entry fee that has been kicked down the curb continually for almost a year now?

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

1 minute ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

I'd imagine the Thai government makes enough monies from tourism to offset the cost of emergency treatment for the uninsured. I know it's wrong but what else can be done?

Exactly this... there is no ‘perfect option’.... but there is the ‘least worse’ of a bunch of poor options that ensure that some are not found in similar circumstances.

Motorcycle accidents etc aside, what about the perfectly innocent victim of a hit and run who decided to stay an extra few days and inadvertently exceeded is travel insurance duration etc...etc... etc... ?

Always blaming the victim is a very easy decision for some, preaching from the sanctimony of an ivory tower safe in the knowledge that their naivety and mistakes are behind them while passing judgement on those whose only genuine difference is that they were unlucky while he who casts judgement was nothing other than lucky when making those *same mistakes in the past.

*I find it difficult to believe that any of the judgemental posters have not at some point either been here in Thailand without insurance or somehow taken a course of action that momentarily voided their insurance... such as riding a motorcycle without a license, riding pillion without a helmet, or even getting drunk (which may void a number of policies)....

People are hypocrites and this thread is rife with those who conveniently forget the innocent and naive mistakes of their past because they were simply lucky enough not to become one of the unfortunate few back in the day.

Bkk Brian · May 10, 2023

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Are they not trying to do that with the proposed 300 baht entry fee that has been kicked down the curb continually for almost a year now?

That's what they said.

https://www.facebook.com/thailandprd/photos/a.251619424861479/5024047370951970/

torturedsole · May 10, 2023

10 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

I'd imagine the Thai government makes enough monies from tourism to offset the cost of emergency treatment for the uninsured. I know it's wrong but what else can be done?

What else can be done?

Just before jetting off to exotic destinations, purchase an online travel insurance policy with an appropriate level of coverage commensurate to the activities the insured will participate. It saves a lot of aggravation.

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Exactly this... there is no ‘perfect option’.... but there is the ‘least worse’ of a bunch of poor options that ensure that some are not found in similar circumstances.

Motorcycle accidents etc aside, what about the perfectly innocent victim of a hit and run who decided to stay an extra few days and inadvertently exceeded is travel insurance duration etc...etc... etc... ?

Always blaming the victim is a very easy decision for some, preaching from the sanctimony of an ivory tower safe in the knowledge that their naivety and mistakes are behind them while passing judgement on those whose only genuine difference is that they were unlucky while he who casts judgement was nothing other than lucky when making those *same mistakes in the past.

*I find it difficult to believe that any of the judgemental posters have not at some point either been here in Thailand without insurance or somehow taken a course of action that momentarily voided their insurance... such as riding a motorcycle without a license, riding pillion without a helmet, or even getting drunk (which may void a number of policies)....

People are hypocrites and this thread is rife with those who conveniently forget the innocent and naive mistakes of their past because they were simply lucky enough not to become one of the unfortunate few back in the day.

If people don't want to receive large hospital bills in Thailand , then its their own personal responsibility to make sure that they are full insured and that they comply with all the insurance requirements , and that includes reading all the small print and finding out what they are covered for and what they aren't covered for .

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Tourists are able to pay for the medical treatment of others be willingly contributing to the gofundme pages of the accident victims .

GoFund me is a completely different beast and is only necessary because of existing flaws in the system. As such is an extremely flawed example if you are presenting such as a solution.

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Should the Thai government introduce a tourist tax , where tourists are taxed, to pay for the medical treatment of those uninsured ?

Tourists already pay billions of Baht in Tax in every part of the US$ 883 Billion they spend in Thailand.

There has also been lots of discussion surrounding the proposed 300 baht Tourist entry Tax.

I don't think anyone is bothered about the 300 Baht itself. The issue is with the logics of selectively receiving that 300 Baht from every tourist arrival.

It can’t be written into the ticket as Airlines are refusing to have this pushed on to them and differentiate between Thai’s and foreigners in their ticketing.

Paying on arrival (at the Airport) would create a huge mess with extra queues and delays etc.

There needs to be some ‘forward’ thinking... and not the existing thinking which is based on fear of what is being lost.... Thailand needs to do its best to court international tourists, more tourist = more income, tiny % of that (i.e. 0.5%) could easily be offset to support the Medical Cost Burden of Tourists in Thailand.

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

18 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Are they not trying to do that with the proposed 300 baht entry fee that has been kicked down the i curb continually for almost a year now?

I think that was Mac’s point.... but actually they’ve been discussing this for well over a decade and have never found an elegant solution.

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

GoFund me is a completely different beast and is only necessary because of existing flaws in the system. As such is an extremely flawed example if you are presenting such as a solution.

Tourists already pay billions of Baht in Tax in every part of the US$ 883 Billion they spend in Thailand.

There has also been lots of discussion surrounding the proposed 300 baht Tourist entry Tax.

I don't think anyone is bothered about the 300 Baht itself. The issue is with the logics of selectively receiving that 300 Baht from every tourist arrival.

It can’t be written into the ticket as Airlines are refusing to have this pushed on to them and differentiate between Thai’s and foreigners in their ticketing.

Paying on arrival (at the Airport) would create a huge mess with extra queues and delays etc.

There needs to be some ‘forward’ thinking... and not the existing thinking which is based on fear of what is being lost.... Thailand needs to do its best to court international tourists, more tourist = more income, tiny % of that (i.e. 0.5%) could easily be offset to support the Medical Cost Burden of Tourists in Thailand.

O.K .

So who should pay the uninsured felangs hospital bills and where would that money come from ?

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think that was Mac’s point.... but actually they’ve been discussing this for well over a decade and have never found an elegant solution.

It wouldn't work at all .

Would everyone be covered ?

What about people with pre existing conditions ?

What about people who break the law and insurance would invalidate their claim ?

Would it encourage sick people to go to Thailand for free medical treatment or for them not to wear rash helmets and drive bikes drunk ?

What about people already insured ?

Would they have to pay again to be insured again ?

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

O.K .

So who should pay the uninsured felangs hospital bills and where would that money come from ?

Have you been reading the thread ???....

Thailand makes US$ 883 Billion from international tourism... Thats your source.

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It wouldn't work at all .

Would everyone be covered ?

Why not ???

Yes... Everyone covered... that avoids all the ‘whatifery’ people such as yourself worry about.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

What about people with pre existing conditions ?

Yes, covered, they don't deliberately get sick on holiday.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

What about people who break the law and insurance would invalidate their claim ?

Yes, covered, because although perhaps somewhat reckless and accident is still not a deliberate action.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Would it encourage sick people to go to Thailand for free medical treatment or for them not to wear crash helmets and drive bikes drunk ?

No it wouldn’t, not if is emergency treatment only, not for elective treatment.

Stupid people are still stupid people, they still need medical care.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

What about people already insured ?

Their insurance pays, and they have the luxury of being treated in a private hospital, just as they do now - nothing changes.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Would they have to pay again to be insured again ?

Pay what.. I’m suggesting people who dont have insurance are still covered under a government scheme so no one is left waiting for emergency treatment or having to sell their house when they get knocked over in a hit and run.

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Pay what.. I’m suggesting people who dont have insurance are still covered under a government scheme so no one is left waiting for emergency treatment or having to sell their house when they get knocked over in a hit and run.

People who have paid to be fully insured at home , would they also have to pay 300 Baht on arrival to be insured again ?

Is the 300 Baht for all tourists or just those not already insured ?

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes, covered, they don't deliberately get sick on holiday.

So people who need open heart surgery within six months , they can come to Thailand and get the surgery done for 300 Baht ?

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Have you been reading the thread ???....

Thailand makes US$ 883 Billion from international tourism... Thats your source.

That doesn't account for the expenditure though .

Thailand doesn't make US$ 883 Billion profit from tourists.

Tourists may spend that much , but that money isn't given to the Government , so the Government cannot pay felangs medical bills out of that money, because they do not receive it .

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes, covered, because although perhaps somewhat reckless and accident is still not a deliberate action.

Right, so a felang can come to Thailand , illegally hire a motorbike without a licence , illegally drive whilst drunk and illegally drive with no crash helmet and illegally break the speed limit and if the crashes , then the Thai Government will pay his hospital bill ?

torturedsole · May 10, 2023

40 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So people who need open heart surgery within six months , they can come to Thailand and get the surgery done for 300 Baht ?

Agreed, and legislation for every eventuality is totally unworkable.

Again, we come back to personal responsibility. We're in LoS at the moment and our single trip comprehensive travel insurance policy, including motorbikes (subject to conditions), was about £40. If we get mowed down tomorrow and survive, we'll be afforded the best care and there'll be no requirement for nurse to root about in my wallet.

Edited May 10, 2023 by torturedsole

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

40 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

People who have paid to be fully insured at home , would they also have to pay 300 Baht on arrival to be insured again ?

Is the 300 Baht for all tourists or just those not already insured ?

The proposed 300 baht scheme is a different topic - I’ve no idea how that would work.

I don't see a practical solution for that, I don’t think authorities can either which is why that can has been kicked down the road for the last 10 years or so.

Mac Mickmanus · May 10, 2023

51 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Have you been reading the thread ???....

Thailand makes US$ 883 Billion from international tourism... Thats your source.

As you aren't a tourist , I don't see why you should be privy to any income for tourists .

I can see the retirees appeal though , they come to Thailand once and pay 300 Baht and they are full insured throughout there lengthy stay, all funded by genuine tourists who just stay for a few weeks .

Tourists fund retirees medical expenses .

richard_smith237 · May 10, 2023

34 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Right, so a felang can come to Thailand , illegally hire a motorbike without a licence , illegally drive whilst drunk and illegally drive with no crash helmet and illegally break the speed limit and if the crashes , then the Thai Government will pay his hospital bill ?

Thats what happens in the UK...

No questions asked... Emergency Medical treatment first above all else.

But really... again, your ‘whatifery’ worries about an extreme minority.

BUT.. it could be argued that in such extreme cases as you describe the negligence is criminal and thus the Thai government could take a legal approach to cover costs.

Edited May 10, 2023 by richard_smith237

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