Husband signed contract for estranged wife’s condo finance. Responsible?

[wombat]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:33 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

What's that got to do with it?

Asking what her salary is?

[1happykamper]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:04 PM, JeffersLos said:

He didn’t really believe me.

What does he think the value of his signature has? He is and WILL be held responsible. 

 

I'm curious... Is there debtor prison in Thailand? 

[CecilM]

He didn’t watch enough Judge Judy to know that was a bad decision. 

[brianthainess]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:04 PM, JeffersLos said:

He said no, because they deduct the payments straight from her salary, she works for CP, and apparently they have special arrangements for their employees to get such things as mortgages quite easily, no doubt through companies they also own. ????

And what will happen if she leaves her job ???

[Liverpool Lou]

42 minutes ago, wombat said:

On 7/18/2023 at 10:33 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

What's that got to do with it?

Asking what her salary is?

And what's that got to do with the OP's question?

[Dexxter]

3 hours ago, Colabamumbai said:

Killing chickens. 

I was trying to work out what CP stands for. Now I know..... Chicken Plucker. ????

[seajae]

to sign as a guarantor they would have needed to look at his financials first to ensure he has the finances to take over if she fails to pay, a husband co signing is not always to be a guarantor, I have co signed  my wifes loans over the years and have not been  guarantor on any of them.

[newnative]

     Rule #1.  Do not sign any document that you don't fully understand, and fully agree to the terms of, especially if it is presented to you by someone who may not have your best interests at heart, like an estranged spouse.  He should have demanded copies of the documents translated to the language he is most comfortable with, and signed by all the parties involved.   Before signing, he also should have demanded copies of all the contracts, in both languages, signed by all the parties.

     Before signing, he was in the driver's seat and had the power to demand and receive what he needed in order to determine whether to sign or not.   Nothing goes forward without his signature.  Once he signed, he lost all power.   That's a lesson we should all learn, and need to always remember.  

[malthebluff]

Why sign anything that is written in thai and not for you but another person especially your ex wife ( a woman scorned ).

That said it's easier for the bank to chase two people if payments are not made rather then one person 

[jaideedave]

25 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Rule #1.  Do not sign any document that you don't fully understand, and fully agree to the terms of, especially if it is presented to you by someone who may not have your best interests at heart, like an estranged spouse.  He should have demanded copies of the documents translated to the language he is most comfortable with, and signed by all the parties involved.   Before signing, he also should have demanded copies of all the contracts, in both languages, signed by all the parties.

     Before signing, he was in the driver's seat and had the power to demand and receive what he needed in order to determine whether to sign or not.   Nothing goes forward without his signature.  Once he signed, he lost all power.   That's a lesson we should all learn, and need to always remember.  

You've just explained it all in a nutshell. Maybe he was coerced or fibbed to to get this transaction through before the light came on.

[AustinRacing]

Being asked to attend a bank and sign whatever must be related to the loan. That part is clear. Not sure whether he signed as a guarantor or whatever else. One would think the signature on the loan holds value to the bank in case they need to chase someone. 

[digger70]

Estranged Wife? He's  done for if she reneges the payments like losing her job or doesn't want to pay anymore. 

[JeffersLos]

4 hours ago, seajae said:

to sign as a guarantor they would have needed to look at his financials first to ensure he has the finances to take over if she fails to pay, a husband co signing is not always to be a guarantor, I have co signed  my wifes loans over the years and have not been  guarantor on any of them.

He simply showed up and signed at the bank and signed at the land office with his passport, as per the law for a spouse. Nothing else of his was checked or provided.

 

 

I've since told him to get a copy of the contract that he signed from his estranged (and friendly) wife. I'll see if he does. 

[BTB1977]

Responsible and stupid are my thoughts. 

[JeffersLos]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:32 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

Only if he did jointly sign a loan agreement or acted as guarantor.  Spouses do not automatically become responsible for the others debts if they were taken out solely by her and he in no way benefited from it.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 11:33 PM, scorecard said:

He signed some pages as her husband. What does that mean? Why? 

 

On 7/19/2023 at 1:07 AM, blackcab said:

Civil and Commercial Code Section 1476: You need the permission of your spouse to obtain a mortgage on immovable property.

 

Without a spousal signature the bank will not lend because the debt would be unenforceable.

 

However, now the gentleman in question has signed he is both jointly and severally liable for the debt as a result of Civil and Commercial Code Section 1490 (4).

 

This isn't because he is a guarantor, it is because he is a co-signer with his wife.

 

That being said he will only be in real trouble if he owns a condo unit in his own name, as that is an asset the bank can easily find if they need to.

 

He might also want to keep significant sums of money in a different bank to that which holds his wife's mortgage, as he may have signed a Right to Set Off. This means if his wife doesn't pay the mortgage the bank can deduct the money owed from any of his accounts with the same bank.

 

Not what you would want if you keep 800k set aside at the same bank for your retirement extension...

 

On 7/19/2023 at 11:00 AM, blackcab said:

 

He can say what he wants, but the bank will follow its procedures.

 

If the bank can not obtain payment for the mortgage eventually the property will be repossessed and sold.

 

The balance owed after any such action will still be owed jointly and severally.

 

At this point the bank can ask the Court for an attachment of earnings order against his wife, and seek out assets of the husband also.

 

The most obvious assets are condominium units, vehicles and cash held in bank accounts.

 

On 7/19/2023 at 11:08 AM, BritManToo said:

Odd that, when my wife bought a house on mortgage the only documents I signed were at the land office stating the purchase was nothing to do with me.

 

On 7/24/2023 at 6:09 AM, hotchilli said:

If he signed as a guarantor yes.

 

On 7/24/2023 at 7:52 AM, thailand49 said:

All the speculation?

 

First it sounds he has no clue what was signed,  conveyed to a friend who now is trying to figure it out. 

 

We will know in a few months won't we. 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 8:57 AM, 1happykamper said:

What does he think the value of his signature has? He is and WILL be held responsible. 

 

I'm curious... Is there debtor prison in Thailand? 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 9:21 AM, seajae said:

to sign as a guarantor they would have needed to look at his financials first to ensure he has the finances to take over if she fails to pay, a husband co signing is not always to be a guarantor, I have co signed  my wifes loans over the years and have not been  guarantor on any of them.

 

On 7/24/2023 at 11:50 AM, AustinRacing said:

Being asked to attend a bank and sign whatever must be related to the loan. That part is clear. Not sure whether he signed as a guarantor or whatever else. One would think the signature on the loan holds value to the bank in case they need to chase someone. 

 

She sent him a scan of the bank loan contract, so I said to blank out the names and give them to  me. ????

 

 

On the first page at the top of the contract there is only one person listed, his estranged wife.

 

 

At the end of the contract she signed first, he signed second, then two banking or loan staff.

 

 

 

So his is the second signature down, with the long Thai language sentence next to it.

 

Google Translate translates it as simply 'Consenting Spouse'.

 

He produced nothing but his passport with visa and extension.

 

 

So, he simply signed as consenting spouse.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by JeffersLos

[ThaiLawOnline]

Yep. We have not seen the contracts but he seems to have signed as collateral.

My ex-wife was also get her salary deducted to pay for the mortgage that we had. I was the guarantor.

 

But I knew that she would not default as long as she worked, as her salary was over the mortgage. But obviously, anyone could lose a job...

 

Estranged wife? That's a NO-NO.

 

The first week off my first class of "property law", my teacher was Albert Bohemier. He was a famous professor about bankruptcy. He told us that "You never, never, never, accept to be guarantor. Why? Because you have nothing to gain but can only lose something." He added that the only exception would if you know that you can lose, but you want to help, like your sister.

 

In my case, I was guarantor of my wife, buying a house for both of us. And under Thai law, the property was marital assets (Sin Somros, under 1474 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand). So I had NO PROBLEM. The problem was the bank to accept me as I was a foreigner. They accepted because I had a work permit for many years and both had a good salary, but her salary was not enough according to the bank, So I was guarantor. That branch told me that I was the first foreigner at their branch (Nakhon Ratchasima, one of the Krung Thai bank) to have been accepted. That was 2011.

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:59 PM, JeffersLos said:

 

 

So, he simply signed as consenting spouse.

 

 

I did not read the full topic. Only "consenting spouse"? Does not means he is not guarantor?

 

Bank contracts are normally quite long and banks protect themselves. If his signature was required, it is probably because she needed a "guarantor".

What if there is a clause in the contract that we have not seen saying "The consenting spouse is a guarantor". And if he is married to her, the property is considered common property. (1474 Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand, hereinafter, "CCCT"). 

 

Then you have 1488 to 1490 CCCT that can apply.

====================================

Section 1488. Personal Liability to Perform

Where either spouse is personally liable to perform an obligation incurred before or during marriage, such performance shall be first made out of his or her Sin Suan Tua; if the obligation is not performed in full, it shall be satisfied out of his or her portion of the Sin Somros.

Section 1489. Collection of Debt from both Marital and Separate Property

Where both spouses are common debtors, the performance shall be made out of the Sin Somros and the Sin Suan Tua of both spouses.

Section 1490.

Debts that both spouses are jointly liable to perform, shall include the following debts incurred by either spouse during marriage:

1. debts incurred in connection with management of household affairs and providing for the necessaries of the family, or maintenance, medical expenses of the household and for proper education of the children;
2. debts incurred in connection with the Sin Somros;
3. debts incurred in connection with a business carried on by the spouses in common;
4. debts incurred by either spouse only for his or her own benefit but ratified by the other.

====================

 

Banks are not stupid. He is probably liable and I am sure at 99.99999%. The 0.000001 is I didn't see the full contract and nobody is perfect.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by ThaiLawOnline

[JeffersLos]

3 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

The problem was the bank to accept me as I was a foreigner. They accepted because I had a work permit for many years and both had a good salary, but her salary was not enough according to the bank, So I was guarantor. That branch told me that I was the first foreigner at their branch (Nakhon Ratchasima, one of the Krung Thai bank) to have been accepted.

With no work permit, no salary in the country, and not having to show anything other than his passport, it doesn't sound like he's guarantor at all.