My Bread Has Begun to Taste Like Cheap Supermarket Cake. Could this be a Ukraine-War-related Wheat Supply Problem? Or….?

[Ombra]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:31 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

Thank you....!

Any suggestion about brand of yeast?

 

(Also, for those who are not using a "bread machine", there are probably a thousand proven recipes for bread on the internet.  However, since I happen to be using this particular bread machine...I had been under the impression that I should use one of the recommended recipes that came with the machine.)

 

Note:  While I do not have a true baking oven, similar to what is installed in most kitchens in the US, I do happen to have the largest Electrolux convection oven sold here in Thailand, which might be adequate for baking bread dough produced in the bread machine.. And then, I could use your suggestion of using no sugar, and 'low-sugar yeast'.

 

 

My bread dough improved considerably when I started to use 'Saf-instant' yeast rather than 'Perfect.' In addition, I now buy 'Divella' Italian flour from Makro and my bread tastes better.

[SOTIRIOS]

...Salt...(?)

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, SOTIRIOS said:

...Salt...(?)

Yes, and only 10gr of an 870gr recipe for me.

 

"When added to bread dough, salt works to tighten the gluten strands that are formed, which makes them stronger. By strengthening these gluten strands, salt enables the dough to hold carbon dioxide more efficiently"

 

"Bread baked without salt will have a flat and insipid taste. On the other hand, bread made with an excess of salt will be unpalatable. Generally, the correct amount of salt in bread dough is 1.8 to 2% of salt based on flour weight (that is, 1.8–2 pounds of salt per 100 pounds of flour)."

 

I use 500gr of bread flour, so fits in with that ratio.

Edited July 28, 2023 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Wobblybob said:

 Don't over yeast the bread as you will taste the yeast when baked. 

I like the yeasty flavor, and use 'fermipan' yeast.

 

For those that prefer less or no yeast flavor, I can strongly recommend 'Eagle' brand, as you won't taste much, if any yeast flavor.

[Keeps]

6 hours ago, stix40 said:

Can anyone recommend a good bakery in Changmai area that sells Crusty Farmhouse Bread ????

Fed up with Thai Bread that is too Sweet.

Thanks in advance.

I've just spent a couple of weeks in Chiang Mai and got my bread from the bakery next to U.N.Irish bar on Ratvithi road (near Thapae Gate). I think the bar owns the bakery. They have English crusty loaf amongst other types of bread. Small loaf 50 baht, large 85 baht. It is similar to what we would call a crusty tin loaf in the UK. They also have a selection of rolls, baguettes, English muffins etc. They do a decent pie but not cheap for the size (150 baht). If you do pay a visit I would suggest getting there as close as possible to opening time at 9.00am. Whilst they have a selection, they seem to only have a few of each. They will slice the bread for you if required. 

 

On the same road (same side but nearer Thapae end of the road) there is a small shop that sells grilled cheese and meat sandwiches. They will sell sourdough loaves aswell. I've not bought a loaf from there but have had a sandwich. It was very good.

 

These two options are the best I've had in Chiang Mai and most similar to what we would have in the UK.

[GammaGlobulin]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

"When added to bread dough, salt works to tighten the gluten strands that are formed, which makes them stronger. By strengthening these gluten strands, salt enables the dough to hold carbon dioxide more efficiently"

Very GOOD point!!!

 

[stix40]

49 minutes ago, Keeps said:

I've just spent a couple of weeks in Chiang Mai and got my bread from the bakery next to U.N.Irish bar on Ratvithi road (near Thapae Gate). I think the bar owns the bakery. They have English crusty loaf amongst other types of bread. Small loaf 50 baht, large 85 baht. It is similar to what we would call a crusty tin loaf in the UK. They also have a selection of rolls, baguettes, English muffins etc. They do a decent pie but not cheap for the size (150 baht). If you do pay a visit I would suggest getting there as close as possible to opening time at 9.00am. Whilst they have a selection, they seem to only have a few of each. They will slice the bread for you if required. 

 

On the same road (same side but nearer Thapae end of the road) there is a small shop that sells grilled cheese and meat sandwiches. They will sell sourdough loaves aswell. I've not bought a loaf from there but have had a sandwich. It was very good.

 

These two options are the best I've had in Chiang Mai and most similar to what we would have in the UK.

Thanks Keeps

I will give that bakery a visit 

Thanks for replying.

[connda]

Absolutely.  It's Putin's fault for sure!

[Keeps]

21 minutes ago, stix40 said:

Thanks Keeps

I will give that bakery a visit 

Thanks for replying.

No worries. I think it is closed on Tuesday's along with the bar. Just a heads up, don't want you to have a wasted journey.

[GammaGlobulin]

13 minutes ago, Keeps said:

No worries. I think it is closed on Tuesday's along with the bar. Just a heads up, don't want you to have a wasted journey.

 'I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today '

 

 

 

[mrfill]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Yes, and only 10gr of an 870gr recipe for me.

 

"When added to bread dough, salt works to tighten the gluten strands that are formed, which makes them stronger. By strengthening these gluten strands, salt enables the dough to hold carbon dioxide more efficiently"

 

"Bread baked without salt will have a flat and insipid taste. On the other hand, bread made with an excess of salt will be unpalatable. Generally, the correct amount of salt in bread dough is 1.8 to 2% of salt based on flour weight (that is, 1.8–2 pounds of salt per 100 pounds of flour)."

 

I use 500gr of bread flour, so fits in with that ratio.

Adding a couple of teaspoons of lemon juice to the water has the same effect on the gluten strands. I have used this before if the batch of flour is of lower quality (which happens as a result of weather problems usually)

 

[Srikcir]

Could this be a Ukraine-War-related Wheat Supply Problem? 

Might be a supply chain problem but not a wheat export problem.

4 top workd exporters of wheat:

Russia, EU, Australia,  USA (2021)

Russia, EU, Canada, Australia (2023)

Where Ukraine exports decreased, Russia filled in. Much of Ukraine export now goes to the EU.

[Gandtee]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:33 AM, alanrchase said:

I know you don't need sugar or fat to make bread. That is why my last sentence stated that I only use flour, water, yeast and salt. 

I have never used a bread maker but I keep seeing sugar and fat in the bread recipes for them. I assume it is because people expect the bread to be ready two hours after they start and that can only  be achieved using sugar.

Not really. I make Quick Bread. Using 25mg Vitamin C, ascorbic acid, plus half tsp sugar to 15mg instant yeast and 600 g flour. Just one rising. Good taste and texture.

[alanrchase]

2 minutes ago, Gandtee said:

Not really. I make Quick Bread. Using 25mg Vitamin C, ascorbic acid, plus half tsp sugar to 15mg instant yeast and 600 g flour. Just one rising. Good taste and texture.

So you use sugar like I said.

[Humpy]

The supermarket loaves contain many ingredients including this !!!!

''It is the amino acid L-Cysteine that is used to prolong shelf-life in products and is reported to mainly come from China.

Most of the hair used to make L-Cysteine comes from China, where it is gathered from barbershops and hair salons. ''. Google 'Supermarket bread ingredients' for the full list. You Tube has many simple bread recipes.

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, Humpy said:

The supermarket loaves contain many ingredients including this !!!!

''It is the amino acid L-Cysteine that is used to prolong shelf-life in products and is reported to mainly come from China.

Most of the hair used to make L-Cysteine comes from China, where it is gathered from barbershops and hair salons. ''. Google 'Supermarket bread ingredients' for the full list. You Tube has many simple bread recipes.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

This is the result of a 1.5 Kg loaf of bread after reducing added sugar from the original recipe calling for 5 tablespoon sugar to 2 tablespoons sugar.

The look of the loaf is better, and it seems to have risen slightly higher with the reduction in added sugar.

All other variables were unchanged.

It's still too HOT to slice.

Some like it hot, but I do not...

 

Next loaf, we will try zero added sugar, which is where we want to be.

If The Loaf Also Rises, as Hemingway would, say, then problem solved.

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by GammaGlobulin

[GammaGlobulin]

AS PROMISED:

Here is 1.5 Kg Bread Loaf with NO SUGAR ADDED (all other variables were held constant)

 

Conclusion:

a. Smells like bread

b. Tastes like bread

c. Looks like....a what?  Does it have one leg on it? Maybe a snail?  Something.

 

What I learned:  I must use a minimum of 1 Tablespoon of Sugar in order to get the yeast producing CO2 faster, maybe...

 

Still, I will eat it, for sure.

And, I would also serve it to guests.

 

 

This will be good added to chicken stew.

 

 

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

AS PROMISED:

Here is 1.5 Kg Bread Loaf with NO SUGAR ADDED (all other variables were held constant)

 

Conclusion:

a. Smells like bread

b. Tastes like bread

c. Looks like....a what?  Does it have one leg on it? Maybe a snail?  Something.

 

What I learned:  I must use a minimum of 1 Tablespoon of Sugar in order to get the yeast producing CO2 faster, maybe...

 

Still, I will eat it, for sure.

And, I would also serve it to guests.

 

 

This will be good added to chicken stew.

What yeast did you use ?  Red is for low sugar.

[neeray]

I always think of that invasion as a "Russian war", NOT a "Ukraine war". 

Sorry can't offer any advice on the bread issue.

[GammaGlobulin]

15 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

What yeast did you use ?  Red is for low sugar.

Yes, you did advise me of this before.

But, I had only that instant yeast in the brown bottle from Tops.

 

I will try again, with zero sugar, when I can get what you suggest......THANK YOU!

 

[KhunLA]

17 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I will try again, with zero sugar, when I can get what you suggest......THANK YOU!

I had to order it from LAZ, as nobody seems to carry it, not even the baking supply shop here.  Slight price increase since I bought @ 123 baht, same as their other yeast prices @ Makro.  S&H was the extra.

LAZ

500gr ... simply keep in the freezer, and will last long time.

Edited August 25, 2023 by KhunLA

[GammaGlobulin]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:34 AM, GammaGlobulin said:

AS PROMISED:

Here is 1.5 Kg Bread Loaf with NO SUGAR ADDED (all other variables were held constant)

 

Conclusion:

a. Smells like bread

b. Tastes like bread

c. Looks like....a what?  Does it have one leg on it? Maybe a snail?  Something.

 

What I learned:  I must use a minimum of 1 Tablespoon of Sugar in order to get the yeast producing CO2 faster, maybe...

 

Still, I will eat it, for sure.

And, I would also serve it to guests.

 

 

This will be good added to chicken stew.

 

 

After the SNAIL LOAF, I increased the added sugar from ZERO sugar to only 0.5 Tablespoons of sugar.

The result was miraculous.

 

In fact, the loaf now looks half-way normal.

 

Also, 0.5 Tablespoons of sugar is entirely consumed by the yeast, and I really doubt this small amount of sugar will negatively impact the taste of the bread.

In addition, I will be able to continue using my cheap and easily obtainable yeast from Tops.

 

I won't do anymore fooling around with this simple recipe, enjoy my bread, and let sleeping dogs lie.

 

 

Note, however, that with 1 Tablespoon of sugar, the bread rises better, has a fuller shape to it, and probably would be tastier, too, since, with 1 Tablespoon of sugar, the bread would be less dense.

 

(I ate the Snail Loaf, the one with zero sugar, and it wasn't half bad. It toasted well, in fact. So...it was not the tragedy that I had expected during the baking process.)

 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

As Snowball Said:  Some loaves are created more equal than others

 

Left loaf 1.5 tablespoons sugar

sugar provides darker color

sugar may have affected shape

 

Right loaf 1.0 tablespoons sugar

 

All other variables held constant.

 

Maybe it was not Snowball I quoted, but it was one of the animals that changed the constitution, and maybe it was the bear, Pooh.

 

 

Still, this is a good reminder that small factors can influence pivotal events of the future.

 

[KhunLA]

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Left loaf 1.5 tablespoons sugar

sugar provides darker color

sugar may have affected shape

 

Right loaf 1.0 tablespoons sugar

 

All other variables held constant.

 

Maybe it was not Snowball I quoted, but it was one of the animals that changed the constitution, and maybe it was the bear, Pooh.

 

 

Still, this is a good reminder that small factors can influence pivotal events of the future.

 

Sugar will enhance the Maillard reaction in baking and all cooking.  Also why onions brown & caramelize.

 

It will also make the bread softer & wetter, as sugar, since dissolves in water is sometimes considered a wet ingredient, as it will add volume to the water.

 

"Here are some ways sugar affects baking:

1. Sweetness: Sugar is primarily used to sweeten baked goods, providing a desirable taste that balances other flavors in the recipe.
2. Flavor Enhancement: Sugar enhances the flavor of baked goods by adding a subtle caramelized or “browned” flavor during baking. This is particularly true for recipes where sugar is heated, such as in cookies or caramelized toppings.
3. Texture and Moisture: Sugar helps create a tender and moist texture in baked goods. It absorbs moisture and helps to retain it during baking, resulting in a soft and moist crumb.
4. Browning and Caramelization: Sugar aids in the browning and caramelization process during baking. The Maillard reaction, which occurs when sugar combines with proteins in the presence of heat, leads to the desirable golden-brown color and the development of complex flavors in baked goods.
5. Structure and Volume: Sugar contributes to the structure and volume of baked goods. When sugar is beaten with fats or eggs, it incorporates air, creating a light and fluffy texture. Sugar also helps tenderize gluten, resulting in a more delicate crumb.
6. Moisture Retention: Sugar has hygroscopic properties, meaning it attracts and retains moisture. In baked goods, sugar helps to keep them moist and fresh for a longer time.
7. Shelf Life: Sugar acts as a natural preservative in baked goods. Its ability to absorb moisture and reduce water activity helps inhibit the growth of microorganisms, extending the shelf life of certain baked products.
8. Yeast Activation: In yeast-based baking, sugar acts as a food source for the yeast. It helps activate and feed the yeast, allowing it to ferment and produce carbon dioxide, which contributes to the rise and texture of yeast-leavened breads and other baked goods.

It’s important to note that reducing or omitting sugar in baking can affect the overall taste, texture, and structure of the final product. The specific amount of sugar used in a recipe should be carefully considered to achieve the desired results."

Edited September 9, 2023 by KhunLA

[GammaGlobulin]

39 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Sugar will enhance the Maillard reaction in baking and all cooking.  Also why onions brown & caramelize.

 

It will also make the bread softer & wetter, as sugar, since dissolves in water is sometimes considered a wet ingredient, as it will add volume to the water.

 

"Here are some ways sugar affects baking:

1. Sweetness: Sugar is primarily used to sweeten baked goods, providing a desirable taste that balances other flavors in the recipe.
2. Flavor Enhancement: Sugar enhances the flavor of baked goods by adding a subtle caramelized or “browned” flavor during baking. This is particularly true for recipes where sugar is heated, such as in cookies or caramelized toppings.
3. Texture and Moisture: Sugar helps create a tender and moist texture in baked goods. It absorbs moisture and helps to retain it during baking, resulting in a soft and moist crumb.
4. Browning and Caramelization: Sugar aids in the browning and caramelization process during baking. The Maillard reaction, which occurs when sugar combines with proteins in the presence of heat, leads to the desirable golden-brown color and the development of complex flavors in baked goods.
5. Structure and Volume: Sugar contributes to the structure and volume of baked goods. When sugar is beaten with fats or eggs, it incorporates air, creating a light and fluffy texture. Sugar also helps tenderize gluten, resulting in a more delicate crumb.
6. Moisture Retention: Sugar has hygroscopic properties, meaning it attracts and retains moisture. In baked goods, sugar helps to keep them moist and fresh for a longer time.
7. Shelf Life: Sugar acts as a natural preservative in baked goods. Its ability to absorb moisture and reduce water activity helps inhibit the growth of microorganisms, extending the shelf life of certain baked products.
8. Yeast Activation: In yeast-based baking, sugar acts as a food source for the yeast. It helps activate and feed the yeast, allowing it to ferment and produce carbon dioxide, which contributes to the rise and texture of yeast-leavened breads and other baked goods.

It’s important to note that reducing or omitting sugar in baking can affect the overall taste, texture, and structure of the final product. The specific amount of sugar used in a recipe should be carefully considered to achieve the desired results."

The Marx Brothers were the first to rely on The Malliard Reaction to provide added humor to their dish, Duck Soup.