UK Tax Scam

[mikebell]

I am just back from 3 weeks in the rain. This is to let you know, I (& many others) are likely owed many thousands; I stand to recoup over 5K UKP.  I know next to nothing about Income tax coding which is at the crux of the scam.  Each year I am given a notice of coding & accepted it unconditionally as it was from the HMRC people themselves.  This is their defence when challenged; if you accept it without checking, you lose.

My daughter thought I was paying too much.  We checked on line & found (eventually) to my horror that the tax authorities have assumed I was receiving a full State pension (of 10K this year.)  In fact my pension has been frozen for 15 years as I live in Thailand.

I sent two letters  from Thailand which were ignored.  I sent on-line messages which were allocated an official case number but never acted on.

So I phoned in the UK.  (Phoning from here was difficult because of the time gap + an inordinate wait of about an hour before you got a real person (all the while being told how important your call was). I was initially re-directed to the Pension people in Newcastle, staffed by incompetents who did not know what day it was & re-directed me back to the Tax people.

After an exhaustive conversation with someone prepared to go the extra mile, he admitted that I have been overpaying for years.  He could only go back 4 or 5 years and calculated I was due 5K+.  I received the 1st tranche within a week (3,500+) but there has been a deafening silence since.

Edited August 3, 2023 by mikebell
missing words

[Neeranam]

If resident here, can you opt to pay the tax here?

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If resident here, can you opt to pay the tax here?

No, income sourced in the UK is taxed in the UK.

Although not knowing what tax you owed and what tax you paid seems somewhat foolish. I always checked my tax as it was paid (UK government gateway account) and applied online for refunds the moment they overcharged me.

Normally refunds were paid into my UK bank account withing 14 days of my claim.

Edited August 3, 2023 by BritManToo

[ezzra]

6 minutes ago, mikebell said:

He could only go back 4 or 5 years and calculated I was due 5K+. 

That strange if you owned them money they find your records going back since you were born, don't let them BS you and threat to sue them.

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

No, income sourced in the UK is taxed in the UK.

Although not knowing what tax you owed and what tax you paid seems somewhat foolish. I always checked my tax as it was paid (UK government gateway account) and applied online for refunds the moment they overcharged me.

Normally refunds were paid into my UK bank account withing 14 days of my claim.

thanks

[hotandsticky]

14 minutes ago, mikebell said:

I am just back from 3 weeks in the rain. This is to let you know, I (& many others) are likely owed many thousands; I stand to recoup over 5K UKP.  I know next to nothing about Income tax coding which is at the crux of the scam.  Each year I am given a notice of coding & accepted it unconditionally as it was from the HMRC people themselves.  This is their defence when challenged; if you accept it without checking, you lose.

My daughter thought I was paying too much.  We checked on line & found (eventually) to my horror that the tax authorities have assumed I was receiving a full State pension (of 10K this year.)  In fact my pension has been frozen for 15 years as I live in Thailand.

I sent two letters  from Thailand which were ignored.  I sent on-line messages which were allocated an official case number but never acted on.

So I phoned in the UK.  (Phoning from here was difficult because of the time gap + an inordinate wait of about an hour before you got a real person (all the while being told how important your call was). I was initially re-directed to the Pension people in Newcastle, staffed by incompetents who did not know what day it was & re-directed me back to the Tax people.

After an exhaustive conversation with someone prepared to go the extra mile, he admitted that I have been overpaying for years.  He could only go back 4 or 5 years and calculated I was due 5K+.  I received the 1st tranche within a week (3,500+) but there has been a deafening silence since.

 

I am just helping a friend in the identical situation.

 

Somebody pointed out that he seemed to be paying too much tax. 

 

This probably goes back 10/11 years to the time his state pension was frozen. He has letters (previously used for the old British embassy income certification and also to show Immigration) confirming his weekly entitlement of GBP 135.84. HMRC make payments to WISE, every 28 days of GBP 543.36 which totals GBP 7,063.68.

 

He spent 5 hours on the phone yesterday to various HMRC staff and he was told he was wrong (and had the phone put down on him by one arrogant a55hole who said "don't try and tell me how to do my job"). 

 

 

I eventually managed to create a Government Gateway tax account for him. It is appalling that there is not a freeform option to advise things like incorrect tax codes..  I found an online claim form where I there was a box where you could input text - so I set out the problem in the disparity between the actual state pension payment and the system generated state pension figure of GBP 9,738. That resulted in wrong tax codes being sent to the occupational pension provider.

 

I have a reference number but fear that the outcome may be similar to the OP.

 

 

As a back up it may be necessary to post correspondence, with supporting evidence, to HMRC in the UK. All this because HMRC screwed up and, so far, have not been able to recognise/admit their mistake.

 

 

I wonder how many other people in Thailand are similarly affected.

[youreavinalaff]

12 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

thanks

Not a scam.

 

An error.

 

When did you tell them you moved to Thailand?

[Eff1n2ret]

7 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not a scam.

 

An error.

Indeed. Unfortunately our Government Departments are not really very joined up, and your tax coding is based on the assumption that you are paid the annual state pension increases. More than once in recent years I've phoned up to get my coding rectified. Some years the increase has been so small that I didn't bother, and as I've had to submit a tax return every year because of rental income the overpayment is automatically repaid. But with the "triple lock" and high inflation it has become more important for everyone to check their notice of coding.

[Liverpool Lou]

UK Tax Scam

 

What you described was not a "UK tax scam", it was an error.

[mikebell]

2 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

As a back up it may be necessary to post correspondence, with supporting evidence, to HMRC in the UK.

Thanks for this; I have posted two letters without response.  I have been promised another 2K in 14 days; that was July 14th!  I think it is appalling that HMRC blame us the punters for not checking our tax coding making us responsible for their mistake.

[mikebell]

55 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

UK Tax Scam

 

What you described was not a "UK tax scam", it was an error.

It is a scam if they admit THEIR error but then refuse to backtrack more than four years after 15 years of over-taxation; keep you waiting for over an hour on the phone; refuse to acknowledge letters posted from Thailand; make it almost impossible to communicate with them except by phone; promise action but then don't fulfil their promise.

[mikebell]

2 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

it has become more important for everyone to check their notice of coding.

Very true but I really have little idea of the meaning of tax codes & their impact on my overall tax liability.  I am sure there will  be many others.  I have only 3 sources of income: a Teachers' Pension; a private pension and my State Pension currently rated and taxed at 10K a year tho' I actually only get roughly 4745.

[MartinL]

Don't forget - you might correct HMRC's assumption that you've received the annual upgrade for this year but that's not the end of the story. Don't presume that, once you've corrected the error, that's the end of it.

 

Next year they'll make exactly the same assumption and you'll have to go through it all again. HMRC and DWP don't seem to talk to each other.

 

Get yourself an HMRC Personal Tax Account. If you keep an eye on it (I look every month or less) around January or February, you'll see what they expect your state pension to be for the coming tax year. If it's wrong, contact them and they can be surprisingly quick to correct it.

 

If you have to call DWP, only deal with the International Pension Centre phoneline. They can be far better to deal with than others.

 

 

[mikebell]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not a scam.

 

An error.

 

When did you tell them you moved to Thailand?

Over 15 years ago!  It becomes a scam when they overtax me for 15 years then say they will reimburse me for only the last 4 years; then make promises they don't keep; keep you waiting for over an hour on the phone; refuse to acknowledge letters posted from Thailand; make it almost impossible to communicate with them except by phone; promise action but then don't fulfil their promise.

[mikebell]

3 minutes ago, MartinL said:

 

'If you have to call DWP, only deal with the International Pension Centre phoneline. They can be far better to deal with than others.'  

 

 

I spoke to an imbecile who didn't know what I was talking about.  She passed me on to her supervisor who passed me back to HRMC.

[mikebell]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

If resident here, can you opt to pay the tax here?

No.  The Norwegians do and are laughing all the way to their Thai Banks.

[mikebell]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Normally refunds were paid into my UK bank account withing 14 days of my claim.

I have been waiting 20 days after they promised three years of refunds.

[youreavinalaff]

44 minutes ago, mikebell said:

Over 15 years ago!  It becomes a scam when they overtax me for 15 years then say they will reimburse me for only the last 4 years; then make promises they don't keep; keep you waiting for over an hour on the phone; refuse to acknowledge letters posted from Thailand; make it almost impossible to communicate with them except by phone; promise action but then don't fulfil their promise.

No. That is not the definition of a scam.

 

A scam is when someone knowingly sets out to relieve you of your money by lying. 

 

You are involved in an error. A big, long term error but, an error none the less. 

 

When did you inform them you were moving permanently to Thailand? You did inform them, didn't you? Then you checked? Then you checked your tax payments?

[Chomper Higgot]

I agree with others, not a scam.

 

The OP can ensure he pays the right tax by requesting a self assessment.

 

Nobody owes him the duty to make sure his taxes are right, that’s something he and all tax payers must do for themselves.

 

[In the jungle]

1 hour ago, mikebell said:

It is a scam if they admit THEIR error but then refuse to backtrack more than four years after 15 years of over-taxation; keep you waiting for over an hour on the phone; refuse to acknowledge letters posted from Thailand; make it almost impossible to communicate with them except by phone; promise action but then don't fulfil their promise.

I think it was probably the case that the guy in the HMRC call centre could only see records for the last four years on his screen and therefore was in no position to judge years prior to that. 

 

I would not take that that to mean there could be no claim beyond four years.

Edited August 3, 2023 by In the jungle

[kinyara]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

No, income sourced in the UK is taxed in the UK.

Although not knowing what tax you owed and what tax you paid seems somewhat foolish. I always checked my tax as it was paid (UK government gateway account) and applied online for refunds the moment they overcharged me.

Normally refunds were paid into my UK bank account withing 14 days of my claim.

Do I take it when you say "as it was paid"  means you were able to follow it up and get it corrected during the tax year rather than wait until after the tax year ended ?

 

I'm anticipating the need to apply for a refund when I start drawing my SIPP next year and would like to sort it immediately if possible. I've already got and keep my Govt Gateway A/c active.

[mikebell]

46 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

I think it was probably the case that the guy in the HMRC call centre could only see records for the last four years on his screen and therefore was in no position to judge years prior to that. 

 

I would not take that that to mean there could be no claim beyond four years.

Thanks for that cheery note.  As I said above the guy was really helpful and promised a refund of over 5K.  The 1st arrived almost immediately but it's been over 19 days since the last contact.

[mikebell]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

When did you inform them you were moving permanently to Thailand?

15 years ago.  I am being persuaded that my use of the word 'scam' is overly emotive: chosen because rectifying it is convoluted and frustratingly slow-moving.  I concur that I should have checked my tax affairs but to be truthful I did not & still don't know how.  I took at face-value the code I was given having been a teacher for 39 years with almost no contact with HMCR.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, kinyara said:

Do I take it when you say "as it was paid"  means you were able to follow it up and get it corrected during the tax year rather than wait until after the tax year ended ?

 

I'm anticipating the need to apply for a refund when I start drawing my SIPP next year and would like to sort it immediately if possible. I've already got and keep my Govt Gateway A/c active.

Yep, directly I took a payment it was always taxed at 20%, but no need to wait if you aren't expecting more that year. 

[kinyara]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Yep, directly I took a payment it was always taxed at 20%, but no need to wait if you aren't expecting more that year. 

Thanks very much, excellent news that makes things much easier for me planning wise. ????

[lungbing]

I'm the same.  I wrote to HMRC in April but this month's tax is still wrong.  And yes, they did the same last year but corrected it quickly after a phone call. There wasn't enough rebate to make it worth while  making a bank payment so they adjusted my tax code slightly.    This time I'll try to get through  to them through  my Gateway account.

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, mikebell said:

15 years ago.  I am being persuaded that my use of the word 'scam' is overly emotive: chosen because rectifying it is convoluted and frustratingly slow-moving.  I concur that I should have checked my tax affairs but to be truthful I did not & still don't know how.  I took at face-value the code I was given having been a teacher for 39 years with almost no contact with HMCR.

Yes, definitely more a case IMHO of yet another shining example of bungling incompetence and ineptitude on HM Government's part - as frequently manifested in our dealings these days with HMRC, DWP and HMPO in particular.

 

To assist you in checking your tax affairs from now on, you might wish to consider setting up a personal tax account, as explained in the following link:

 

https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by OJAS

[hotandsticky]

38 minutes ago, lungbing said:

I'm the same.  I wrote to HMRC in April but this month's tax is still wrong.  And yes, they did the same last year but corrected it quickly after a phone call. There wasn't enough rebate to make it worth while  making a bank payment so they adjusted my tax code slightly.    This time I'll try to get through  to them through  my Gateway account.

Good luck with that.

 

If you find a clear cut, easily identifiable way to communicate with them (like a CHAT or email function that you might get with a bank app) please let me know. I spent ages yesterday trying for a friend and had to piggy back on something else to be able to communicate a message.

 about an incorrect tax code.

[Mutt Daeng]

11 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Good luck with that.

 

If you find a clear cut, easily identifiable way to communicate with them (like a CHAT or email function that you might get with a bank app) please let me know. I spent ages yesterday trying for a friend and had to piggy back on something else to be able to communicate a message.

 about an incorrect tax code.

I've used this chat to sort tax queries out a few times.

 

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/ask-hmrc/chat/online-services-helpdesk

 

The HMRC phone app is also very useful (essential IMHO). It lists all your incomes and tax code(s) that HMRC are aware of. It also explains how your tax is calculated. You need a Gov Gateway account to use the app.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Mutt Daeng

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, Mutt Daeng said:

I've used this chat to sort tax queries out a few times.

 

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/ask-hmrc/chat/online-services-helpdesk

 

The HMRC phone app is also very useful (essential IMHO). It lists all your incomes and tax code(s) that HMRC are aware of. It also explains how your tax is calculated. You need a Gov Gateway account to use the app.

Good stuff.

 

Don't you need a UK address for the Government Gateway?