Trump vows to end ‘madness’ of EV push

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'd have to click on all your posts to see, as you are on ignore, but if you do post a reply in the next week I'll endeavour to read it and I will reply.

Is this the end of the hydrogen highway?
A legislative fight over funding for hydrogen stations could be the fuel’s last gasp for passenger vehicles.

The stations are also expensive: The Energy Commission notes that building a hydrogen fueling station costs $6.5 million, while an EV charging station costs about $110,000.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/15/california-hydrogen-cars-00111323#:~:text=Part of the reason hydrogen,does a battery electric one.

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Betamax is the better technology. The reason they lost to VHS wasn't because VHS was a better technology. IMO it was because of some clever advertising by VHS companies.

Actually, the reason Betamax lost to VHS was licensing. 
 

Philips made VHS available to all for free, Sony wanted a licence fee for their Betamax technology.

 

It’s the same reason Windows won against the Mac, open architecture even though Mac was better.

Edited September 10, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[JBChiangRai]

13 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Cant see how  legislation will help for existing  apartment & condo buildings in some cases its impossible to refit charging equipment and in many cases there is a huge distance between the apartment buildings and where the vehicles are parked

Yes legislation will help for new buildings going forward but once again it will come down to some people want the charging facility but don't want to pay an additional cost for it

 

Ultimately there needs to be some legislation to say apartment/condo buildings must install Charging Stations and it must grown by 20xx to cover y% of parking places and the cost of use must be no more than PEA tariff plus z%.

 

I am fairly confident we will see something like that.

[JBChiangRai]

The issue with H2 fueling cars is efficiency.

 

Whether fuel cell or H2ICE, the whole process is expensive and inefficient. It will always cost twice as much per km for an H2 car over a BEV car.

 

That said we may well see H2 cars if there is a shortage of Lithium and BEV cars become premium products.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Ultimately there needs to be some legislation to say apartment/condo buildings must install Charging Stations and it must grown by 20xx to cover y% of parking places and the cost of use must be no more than PEA tariff plus z%.

 

I am fairly confident we will see something like that.

I think your living in fantasy land the cost of install Charging Stations and  associated costs where possible should be funded by EV owners

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hydrogen is already a proven technology for transport. I believe London Transport had some hydrogen powered buses a few years back.

 

Given that submarines already produce hydrogen ( as a by product when making O2 from water ) the methods of making hydrogen are also proven.

Power can come from solar, wind or waves, can it not, or so I've been told, LOL.

Water is not in short supply, as the oceans are full of it and it costs nothing, unlike oil.

Hydrogen is difficult to store and transport and requires special pipes and tanks. It's going to be used in larger short range vehicles first. And larger vehicles travelling along major transport routes. It's also inefficient and uses a lot of electricity. Fine when that electricity is solar or wind but not otherwise.

[impulse]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Power can come from solar, wind or waves, can it not, or so I've been told, LOL.

I hope you're right...  But there seems to be a disconnect between the speed at which they want to ramp up EV's (and H2), vs the speed that "the grid" is growing. 

 

For example, in my home state of Texas, they just had a power supply emergency.  10th one this summer.  Not enough capacity.  Yet, we're trying to push more EV's. 

 

The power grid has seen overall demand grow 7% this summer, after two decades of predictable 1% per year growth, and 10 preliminary demand records since late June.  (Figure any of that is people charging their Tesla's?)

 

ERCOT suggested that people raise their thermostats by a degree or two, avoid using large appliances such as washers and dryers and  turn off and unplug non-essential lights and appliances. Commercial businesses can turn off lights, equipment and air conditioning when the space is not in use. 

 

Kind of suspicious that they didn't mention DON'T CHARGE YOUR TESLA during peak hours.

 

Spot price approached $5,000 per MW-hour and any customers buying on their spot price optional plan is in for a very rude awakening, even if they don't have an EV.

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/ercot-grid-conservation-request-18351400.php

 

[Furioso]

I believe most electric cars in the world are powered by coal.

 

Coal is very dirty. 

[thaibeachlovers]

11 minutes ago, impulse said:

I hope you're right...  But there seems to be a disconnect between the speed at which they want to ramp up EV's (and H2), vs the speed that "the grid" is growing. 

 

For example, in my home state of Texas, they just had a power supply emergency.  10th one this summer.  Not enough capacity.  Yet, we're trying to push more EV's. 

 

The power grid has seen overall demand grow 7% this summer, after two decades of predictable 1% per year growth, and 10 preliminary demand records since late June.  (Figure any of that is people charging their Tesla's?)

 

ERCOT suggested that people raise their thermostats by a degree or two, avoid using large appliances such as washers and dryers and  turn off and unplug non-essential lights and appliances. Commercial businesses can turn off lights, equipment and air conditioning when the space is not in use. 

 

Kind of suspicious that they didn't mention DON'T CHARGE YOUR TESLA during peak hours.

 

Spot price approached $5,000 per MW-hour and any customers buying on their spot price optional plan is in for a very rude awakening, even if they don't have an EV.

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/ercot-grid-conservation-request-18351400.php

 

Something that has always made me wonder is that every time I see an American city at night on tv, all the lights are on in office buildings. Do they keep the lights going all the time, and if so why?

 

Not just America. I sometimes went down to the office district in London at night to see a movie and all the office buildings had the lights on.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Actually, the reason Betamax lost to VHS was licensing. 
 

Philips made VHS available to all for free, Sony wanted a licence fee for their Betamax technology.

 

It’s the same reason Windows won against the Mac, open architecture even though Mac was better.

Thanks for that. I was not aware of that.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I think your living in fantasy land the cost of install Charging Stations and  associated costs where possible should be funded by EV owners

So right. Users should pay. If not for the initial construction, through higher costs for charging. Why should my tax money be used to build something I'll never use?

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The issue with H2 fueling cars is efficiency.

 

Whether fuel cell or H2ICE, the whole process is expensive and inefficient. It will always cost twice as much per km for an H2 car over a BEV car.

 

That said we may well see H2 cars if there is a shortage of Lithium and BEV cars become premium products.

If enough people buy hydrogen cars the technology WILL get better.

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So right. Users should pay. If not for the initial construction, through higher costs for charging. Why should my tax money be used to build something I'll never use?

I don't for a minute think the government will give handouts to condo buildings to install charging points, but I do think they will legislate and make condo buildings install them.  It will have to come out of common funds.

 

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If enough people buy hydrogen cars the technology WILL get better.

There is no getting around the losses in all the extra steps, making the hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it, putting it in the hydrogen stations and lastly exploding it or using a fuel cell.  There are theoretical maximums which can't be exceeded both fuel cell and H2ICE, latter is 50% and we've had over 100 years working on that and we're only up to 20-30% efficiency and Fuel Cell is 56%.

 

Putting it straight into a battery is >95% efficient.  H2 cars will always be more expensive to run.

 

[vinny41]

57 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don't for a minute think the government will give handouts to condo buildings to install charging points, but I do think they will legislate and make condo buildings install them.  It will have to come out of common funds.

 

There is no getting around the losses in all the extra steps, making the hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it, putting it in the hydrogen stations and lastly exploding it or using a fuel cell.  There are theoretical maximums which can't be exceeded both fuel cell and H2ICE, latter is 50% and we've had over 100 years working on that and we're only up to 20-30% efficiency and Fuel Cell is 56%.

 

Putting it straight into a battery is >95% efficient.  H2 cars will always be more expensive to run.

 

I not sure what common funds are available for condo buildings other than maintenance funds which comes from a levy charged against each condo owner and normally expenditure of those funds has to be approved by a management committee which is elected by the condos owners

if a new condo owner wants  an ev charging facility to be installed and he wants everyone to pay for the cost of that facility plus ongoing maintenance and servicing costs and they are the only ev owner in the building i suspect they have an uphill battle

[JBChiangRai]

27 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I not sure what common funds are available for condo buildings other than maintenance funds which comes from a levy charged against each condo owner and normally expenditure of those funds has to be approved by a management committee which is elected by the condos owners

if a new condo owner wants  an ev charging facility to be installed and he wants everyone to pay for the cost of that facility plus ongoing maintenance and servicing costs and they are the only ev owner in the building i suspect they have an uphill battle

I get that, but if the government wants everyone to go EV, they are going to have to do something about the condos/apartment blocks.  The management committees will probably never do anything and individual owners doing it won't work unless they have an allocated parking space which most don't. 

[vinny41]

18 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I get that, but if the government wants everyone to go EV, they are going to have to do something about the condos/apartment blocks.  The management committees will probably never do anything and individual owners doing it won't work unless they have an allocated parking space which most don't. 

I am not sure if the  government wants everyone to go EV if it does it should have divided the  subsidies into 3 phases with the early adopters getting the least amount of subsidy the next phase getting slightly more and then the final subsidy to get every ICE car off the road

We have already seen in China since their government ended the subsidy in December 2022 that EV manufacturers have been forced to reduce prices in order to incentivize sales

[bignok]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:47 AM, placeholder said:

Every time I catch you out, all you respond with is an empty insult. 

You've got nothing.

You are being childish. Making useless comments that have zero to do with reality. Millions of people look at graphs. Your comments just highlight your ignorance about share prices.

[bignok]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

And when I offer my evidence, will you acknowledge it or just evaporate?

You have never ridden in an EV. You have no idea millions of investors look at graphs. Yet you are telling people what the future holds when you have no idea about anything.

[JCauto]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that I've been asking someone, anyone on your side of the divide for ages to provide examples of what governments are doing that is affordable, acceptable and works to deal with climate change, but received narry a reply, IMO you are taking the mickey.

Really? What could be easier?

Have you observed how renewable energy has taken over that market for example? That's basically the result of government intervention funding the research and startups and putting priority on development of alternative non-fossil fuel energy.

Have you observed the carbon markets? For the first time they're now becoming economically viable in terms of the market price providing sufficient incentive and funding. That's again the result of government intervention then the markets realizing that this is a worthwhile investment and taking it on.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

On 9/10/2023 at 4:20 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that I've been asking someone, anyone on your side of the divide for ages to provide examples of what governments are doing that is affordable, acceptable and works to deal with climate change, but received narry a reply, IMO you are taking the mickey.

Really? What could be easier?

Have you observed how renewable energy has taken over that market for example? That's basically the result of government intervention funding the research and startups and putting priority on development of alternative non-fossil fuel energy.

Have you observed the carbon markets? For the first time they're now becoming economically viable in terms of the market price providing sufficient incentive and funding. That's again the result of government intervention then the markets realizing that this is a worthwhile investment and taking it on.

Have you observed the $30+ trillion in US gub'ment debt?  Any idiot can throw money at a problem.

 

Carbon market?  What, exactly is the commercial value of carbon, other than a scheme to transfer wealth?

 

[Danderman123]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:32 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

Which countries use catalytic converters? None that I've lived in.

The USA has required catalytic converters since 1974 for gasoline powered cars.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsroom.co.nz/why-thieves-may-be-after-your-catalytic-converter%3famp=1

 

In New Zealand, catalytic converters have been mandated by law on cars since 2010

Edited September 11, 2023 by Danderman123

[JBChiangRai]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:32 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Which countries use catalytic converters? None that I've lived in.

 

The UK since 1993

[Danderman123]

18 hours ago, Furioso said:

I believe most electric cars in the world are powered by coal.

 

Coal is very dirty. 

Typically, nations that have lots of electric cars also use more clean energy.

 

https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/renewable-share-german-power-use-climbs-523-h1-2023-06-27/#:~:text=Renewables%2C at 137.5 TWh%2C represented,production volumes decreased by 0.6%.

 

Renewable share of German power use climbs to 52.3% in first half

 

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-model-y-is-the-best-selling-ev-in-germany-in-2023#:~:text=Tesla sales in Germany were,electric car in the country.

 

So, your post about EVs and coal is not consistent with reality.

 

Was it your idea, or something you read on the internet?

 

[JCauto]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Have you observed the $30+ trillion in US gub'ment debt?  Any idiot can throw money at a problem.

 

Carbon market?  What, exactly is the commercial value of carbon, other than a scheme to transfer wealth?

 

My interlocutor requested evidence of affordable, acceptable interventions from Government that worked.

That they are affordable is self-evident - I suspect even you would scoff at anyone attempting to blame US Government debt on carbon credits. That it is acceptable is similarly self-evident - the markets have now risen to the point where carbon is viable, meaning that the corporate world has accepted them as a worthwhile investment in the future.

The question is whether the reduction of carbon in the atmosphere will work. Given that the models that were used to make the case for the carbon markets appear to have significantly UNDER-ESTIMATED the impacts of anthropogenic global warming and severe weather impacts are upon us already, there really isn't a case for "laissez faire" or "status quo" economics.

[Chomper Higgot]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:12 AM, vinny41 said:

I think your living in fantasy land the cost of install Charging Stations and  associated costs where possible should be funded by EV owners

Like ICE owners fund installation of gas stations?

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Like ICE owners fund installation of gas stations?

Do you know of any gas stations that have been installed in Condo / apartment buildings I don't 

[Chomper Higgot]

26 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Do you know of any gas stations that have been installed in Condo / apartment buildings I don't 

You realize gas filling and battery charging are two completely different technologies?

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You realize gas filling and battery charging are two completely different technologies?

One is the past and one is the future

[JCauto]

On 9/10/2023 at 7:06 AM, JBChiangRai said:

The issue with H2 fueling cars is efficiency.

 

Whether fuel cell or H2ICE, the whole process is expensive and inefficient. It will always cost twice as much per km for an H2 car over a BEV car.

 

That said we may well see H2 cars if there is a shortage of Lithium and BEV cars become premium products.

Good news then!
 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/lithium-deposit-found-us-may-be-among-worlds-largest-study-finds

[JCauto]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Do you know of any gas stations that have been installed in Condo / apartment buildings I don't 

Can you think of a reason why? C'mon, you can do it!

Why would one not put a reservoir full of fuel within a condo/apartment building complex? Any ideas?

Did you know that you could install a charging station for as little as $500 for a single car in your own garage? How much do you reckon your own personal gas station would cost? Oh, and that cost comes with hardly any long-term environmental costs, no risk of leakage into groundwater or other contamination, no remediation costs once you close the site.