Trump vows to end ‘madness’ of EV push

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I do recall Betamax owners thinking they were the enlightened ones and looked what happened to them

The same as what happened to VHS owners. Betamax was used by professionals for years.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The same as what happened to VHS owners. Betamax was used by professionals for years.

VHS lasted longer in the mainstream market than Betamax VHS was superseded by DVD which in turn has been superseded by Blu-ray

[James105]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I do recall Betamax owners thinking they were the enlightened ones and looked what happened to them

Sure, VHS came afterwards and was cheaper, more widely available and offered longer recording (goes for more miles) so won in the end.   The same will apply to EV when they achieve the same as your comparison when they offer better value and are more convenient than petrol cars, which will happen one day probably in the next couple of decades.   Right now they do not, and that is even with the propaganda style marketing and subsidies of various agenda driven governments.   

 

If they had to compete fairly (as VHS did) with no subsidies hardly anyone would buy them, apart from of course rich virtue signalling celebrities who think they are doing their bit to "save the planet" despite excessive use of private jets.

 

I'm sure when the betamax owners of the past came to the logical conclusion that VHS offered better value and convenience they went out and bought a VHS, as will happen naturally when EV tech is at least as convenient and offers the same value as the petrol car.  

[impulse]

26 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The same as what happened to VHS owners. Betamax was used by professionals for years.

History is full of technologically superior products that were crushed by regulations (many corrupt), lackluster marketing, and patent trolls who buy patents for the purpose of squelching them just to continue selling their inferior garbage.

[JCauto]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:10 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Another reason to vote Trump.

Because it's a core principle of conservative economics to try to overcome market forces with legislation! Because businesses need intervention from the government to function efficiently and correctly!

 

LOL. Sad how lost the Right has become. There is no more "policy", just slavish devotion to a Cult of Personality.

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, bignok said:

Tell someone else

I wasn't talking to you! 

[pacovl46]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

You conveniently forgot that it takes 14 tanker trucks of hydrogen to be the energy equivalent of 1 tanker of gasoline. You also conveniently forgot that the cost of building a hydrogen filling station is far more than the cost of building a conventional station.

You also don't seem to know that ev batteries are lasting far longer than projected. Which is unfortunate for the ev battery recycling plants you also don't seem to know about. In fact even after an ev vehiicle has died, the batteries can still be used for energy storage. More bad news for ev battery recycling plants.

You also don't seem to know that rare earths aren't used for ev batteries but for the magnets. Tesla claims it will be making magnets that don't require rare earths. Also that while silver in an EV vehicle at most amounts to 50 grams. ICE vehicles require 3-7 grams of platinum in their catalytic converters.. Platinum is far scarcer than silver. Which is reflected in the fact that currently it costs almost 40 times as much.

As for wait times, who cares how long it takes to refill an EV battery at home? And the situation is not nearly so dire as you claim. You're just cherry-picking horror stories. If the experience was as bad as you claim it is, why are EV sales still growing as a percentage of the vehicle industry?

Right. That's why some major car manufacturers are already looking into hydrogen because it's so unfeasible. We'll talk again in 10 years. 

[impulse]

46 minutes ago, JCauto said:

Because it's a core principle of conservative economics to try to overcome market forces with legislation! Because businesses need intervention from the government to function efficiently and correctly!

 

LOL. Sad how lost the Right has become. There is no more "policy", just slavish devotion to a Cult of Personality.

How's the weather down there in Bizarro World? 

 

Where up is down, cold is hot, east is west, and the right is the party trying to ban gas appliances and gas cars.

 

[JCauto]

9 minutes ago, impulse said:

How's the weather down there in Bizarro World? 

 

Where up is down, cold is hot, east is west, and the right is the party trying to ban gas appliances and gas cars.

 

So no rebuttal to the factual points made about Republican Party policy?

 

The Democrats are not trying to "ban" gas cars, they're offering incentives for people to switch to more climate-friendly alternatives. You know, like the way Western Government policies offer companies massive incentives to continue to produce fossil fuels. Notice the difference? The Right try to prop up fossil fuels despite the obvious damage they cause to society (first observed accurately in the studies of those same fossil fuel companies in the 70's) and their method to provide incentives is to provide free money to companies. How much free money is being provided to prop up the fossil fuel industry? Oh, a MERE 7 TRILLION DOLLARS OR 7% OF GLOBAL GDP IN 2022!!!!!!!!!!! How's that square with your ideas?

 

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies

 

As to "ban gas appliances", let's stick to the facts, shall we?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/06/13/war-gas-stoves-house-gop-ban/70297193007/

 

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Right. That's why some major car manufacturers are already looking into hydrogen because it's so unfeasible. We'll talk again in 10 years. 

The Toyota Mirai, a H2 fuel cell car in the UK, has to have three H2 tanks and so much space is lost, the back seat of this "family" car is only suitable for children.

[vinny41]

41 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The Toyota Mirai, a H2 fuel cell car in the UK, has to have three H2 tanks and so much space is lost, the back seat of this "family" car is only suitable for children.

There is 2 generations of the Mirai you must be referring to Gen 1 as Gen 2 seems to have plenty of space in the back seat similar size to a Toyota Camry

And although hydrogen is the principle source of the power that drives it, the Mirai is actually an electric car driven by electricity and electric motors.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9540603/Toyota-Mirai-review-second-generation-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car.html

[JBChiangRai]

30 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

There is 2 generations of the Mirai you must be referring to Gen 1 as Gen 2 seems to have plenty of space in the back seat similar size to a Toyota Camry

And although hydrogen is the principle source of the power that drives it, the Mirai is actually an electric car driven by electricity and electric motors.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9540603/Toyota-Mirai-review-second-generation-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car.html

I am not sure which review I saw, it could well have been Gen.1.

 

Fuel Cell technology in Automotive use is currently averaging 36% efficiency (Fuel cell - Wikipedia) but could in theory grow to a maximum of 50-60%.  Fuel Cell cars generally have a small Lithium battery because Fuel Cells are not great at ramping up their output quickly and going hybrid improved both performance and efficiency.

 

They are always going to be a lot less efficient than a BEV, and therefore a lot more expensive to refuel, but it's quite possible that we will see them on the road, especially if there turns out to be a shortage of Lithium Mining & Processing/Battery Assembly over the next decade.

 

Betting on Fuel Cell against BEV saw Toyota's last head honcho get the push by the board.

 

My own view is the segment will grow, but it will take BEV to stumble (i.e. insufficient supply) for them to go mainstream and BEV's will always be favoured by most people for their cheaper running cost.

 

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am not sure which review I saw, it could well have been Gen.1.

 

Fuel Cell technology in Automotive use is currently averaging 36% efficiency (Fuel cell - Wikipedia) but could in theory grow to a maximum of 50-60%.  Fuel Cell cars generally have a small Lithium battery because Fuel Cells are not great at ramping up their output quickly and going hybrid improved both performance and efficiency.

 

They are always going to be a lot less efficient than a BEV, and therefore a lot more expensive to refuel, but it's quite possible that we will see them on the road, especially if there turns out to be a shortage of Lithium Mining & Processing/Battery Assembly over the next decade.

 

Betting on Fuel Cell against BEV saw Toyota's last head honcho get the push by the board.

 

My own view is the segment will grow, but it will take BEV to stumble (i.e. insufficient supply) for them to go mainstream and BEV's will always be favoured by most people for their cheaper running cost.

 

Problem for a lot of people is they simply don't have the facilities for BEV as they don't have access to a charging point at home At the moment their options are limited to Toyota Mira, Nio Battery swapping station model  or expensive charging station away from home and hoping they always have sufficent charge to get to a number of charging stations as the nearest may be out of order I am sure in 5-10 years other options might come available but at the moment its limited

[JBChiangRai]

36 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Problem for a lot of people is they simply don't have the facilities for BEV as they don't have access to a charging point at home At the moment their options are limited to Toyota Mira, Nio Battery swapping station model  or expensive charging station away from home and hoping they always have sufficent charge to get to a number of charging stations as the nearest may be out of order I am sure in 5-10 years other options might come available but at the moment its limited

Yes, and one of the major issues is apartment & condo buildings.  There needs to be some legislation I think.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

As to "ban gas appliances", let's stick to the facts, shall we?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/06/13/war-gas-stoves-house-gop-ban/70297193007/

It's the GOP that's leading state efforts to keep cities from banning gas appliances:

 

Other progressive cities followed suit with similar bans (on gas appliances). San Francisco passed its own ban in 2020. New York City became the largest US city to pass a version in 2021, with New York Gov. Kathy Hochul vowing to pass a statewide law that would ban natural gas by 2027.

But other municipalities looking to take similar action are running into a brick wall. Twenty states with GOP-controlled legislatures have passed so-called “preemption laws” that prohibit cities from banning natural gas.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html

 

The GOP seems to believe in choice and letting consumers decide.  If you read the article, the cities that banned gas appliances are the usual lefty led swirlers.  You know, the ones swirling down the toilet of lefty policies.

[pacovl46]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The Toyota Mirai, a H2 fuel cell car in the UK, has to have three H2 tanks and so much space is lost, the back seat of this "family" car is only suitable for children.

No one said it's perfect. Obviously it comes with drawbacks as well, just like any other type of propulsion

[impulse]

3 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Right. That's why some major car manufacturers are already looking into hydrogen because it's so unfeasible. We'll talk again in 10 years. 

Anyone remember Chrysler's turbine powered car of the future?

 

Quick question...  Where ya going to get the hydrogen?  Or more accurately, the energy to put hydrogen into a form that can be used in a vehicle.

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Yes, and one of the major issues is apartment & condo buildings.  There needs to be some legislation I think.

Cant see how  legislation will help for existing  apartment & condo buildings in some cases its impossible to refit charging equipment and in many cases there is a huge distance between the apartment buildings and where the vehicles are parked

Yes legislation will help for new buildings going forward but once again it will come down to some people want the charging facility but don't want to pay an additional cost for it

 

[JCauto]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

It's the GOP that's leading state efforts to keep cities from banning gas appliances:

 

Other progressive cities followed suit with similar bans (on gas appliances). San Francisco passed its own ban in 2020. New York City became the largest US city to pass a version in 2021, with New York Gov. Kathy Hochul vowing to pass a statewide law that would ban natural gas by 2027.

But other municipalities looking to take similar action are running into a brick wall. Twenty states with GOP-controlled legislatures have passed so-called “preemption laws” that prohibit cities from banning natural gas.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html

 

The GOP seems to believe in choice and letting consumers decide.  If you read the article, the cities that banned gas appliances are the usual lefty led swirlers.  You know, the ones swirling down the toilet of lefty policies.

If we're going to go down the path of "find the farthest Left/Right example and put that up as an exemplar" then there's not really much point in discussion. Do you think it likely I could find the opposite example in some podunk county or state? Of course I could, but it doesn't advance the discussions.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3815311-wyoming-lawmakers-propose-ban-on-electric-vehicle-sales/
 

I have addressed your points, howsabout you address mine? This is always the way debate goes in TV, someone on the Right makes a point, we on the Left rebut it and ask a pertinent question, the person on the Right ignores that and pursues the next line of "whataboutism" or some other deflection. Proper debate proceeds more like a tennis match, whereas the posters on the Right proceed as if it is golf, where two different players are at the same place but playing on different holes without reference to each other.

[pacovl46]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

Anyone remember Chrysler's turbine powered car of the future?

 

Quick question...  Where ya going to get the hydrogen?  Or more accurately, the energy to put hydrogen into a form that can be used in a vehicle.

 

How it works exactly I don't know, but what I do know is that it takes a lot of electricity, which is why the favor was in gasoline and diesel. Solar panels have become a lot more efficient, though. The problem with electroc propulsion is that it's not a viable option for trucks, which is why Daimler AG is looking into hydrogen. Apparently Toyota, BMW and Audi are developing hydrogen technology as well. Porsche developed recently a fuel that produces no CO2 emissions. Maybe that's the future because apparently this fuel works with regular combustion engines so nothing would need to be changed. 

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Governments all over the world are likely to make it unattractive to run ICE vehicles in the future, that means higher usage charges (taxes, direct & indirect) and inconveniences (EV only parking, ICE only on alternative days).

 

Speculation I admit, but we're already seeing these schemes in different countries around the world.

In their dreams they can, but given that the cost of new EVs is too high, and the second hand ones are very, very unattractive due to having to change batteries sooner than later, if they try too hard they will find themselves unemployed. I can already see that political parties dedicated to keeping ICEs may arise if the government makes it too difficult, or orgnisations like the NRA specific to ICEs.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, impulse said:

Anyone remember Chrysler's turbine powered car of the future?

 

Quick question...  Where ya going to get the hydrogen?  Or more accurately, the energy to put hydrogen into a form that can be used in a vehicle.

 

Hydrogen is already a proven technology for transport. I believe London Transport had some hydrogen powered buses a few years back.

 

Given that submarines already produce hydrogen ( as a by product when making O2 from water ) the methods of making hydrogen are also proven.

Power can come from solar, wind or waves, can it not, or so I've been told, LOL.

Water is not in short supply, as the oceans are full of it and it costs nothing, unlike oil.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, JCauto said:

If we're going to go down the path of "find the farthest Left/Right example and put that up as an exemplar" then there's not really much point in discussion. Do you think it likely I could find the opposite example in some podunk county or state? Of course I could, but it doesn't advance the discussions.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3815311-wyoming-lawmakers-propose-ban-on-electric-vehicle-sales/
 

I have addressed your points, howsabout you address mine? This is always the way debate goes in TV, someone on the Right makes a point, we on the Left rebut it and ask a pertinent question, the person on the Right ignores that and pursues the next line of "whataboutism" or some other deflection. Proper debate proceeds more like a tennis match, whereas the posters on the Right proceed as if it is golf, where two different players are at the same place but playing on different holes without reference to each other.

Given that I've been asking someone, anyone on your side of the divide for ages to provide examples of what governments are doing that is affordable, acceptable and works to deal with climate change, but received narry a reply, IMO you are taking the mickey.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/9/2023 at 6:26 AM, placeholder said:

. You also conveniently forgot that the cost of building a hydrogen filling station is far more than the cost of building a conventional station.

I can't see how a hydrogen refuelling station would cost more than the CNG ones that were in every petrol station in North Island NZ some years ago. Basically same technology.

I await your evidence on that with interest.

 

On 9/9/2023 at 6:26 AM, placeholder said:

Also that while silver in an EV vehicle at most amounts to 50 grams. ICE vehicles require 3-7 grams of platinum in their catalytic converters.

Which countries use catalytic converters? None that I've lived in.

 

On 9/9/2023 at 6:26 AM, placeholder said:

As for wait times, who cares how long it takes to refill an EV battery at home?

Stop referring only to people that drive short distances. I used to regularly drive 7 hours and refuelled half way. I and anyone else driving long distances have no desire to be stuck for a long time waiting for a/ a plug to become available b/ the batteries to recharge.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I do recall Betamax owners thinking they were the enlightened ones and looked what happened to them

Betamax is the better technology. The reason they lost to VHS wasn't because VHS was a better technology. IMO it was because of some clever advertising by VHS companies.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

VHS lasted longer in the mainstream market than Betamax VHS was superseded by DVD which in turn has been superseded by Blu-ray

They lasted longer because people bought VHS machines because of other reasons than the tape drive mechanism instead of Beta machines. Beta was still a big seller in Saudi in the 90s. I had one myself, and I still have the first video recorder I bought which is a Beta. Haven't used it for a while though.

 

DVDs allowed better recording quality and required less space to store recordings so not surprising they drove out tape. I doubt Blu Ray has superseded DVD though. I'll always buy DVD in preference to Blu Ray as cheaper discs and virtually no difference in visual quality.

Anyway, data theft on the internet has superseded both DVD and Blu Ray to the extent that I am no longer able to buy a DVD or Blu Ray player from the big stores.

Also almost impossible to buy movies on either disc as most stores no longer stock them. I get all mine from second hand stores now.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, James105 said:

Sure, VHS came afterwards and was cheaper, more widely available and offered longer recording (goes for more miles) so won in the end.   The same will apply to EV when they achieve the same as your comparison when they offer better value and are more convenient than petrol cars, which will happen one day probably in the next couple of decades.   Right now they do not, and that is even with the propaganda style marketing and subsidies of various agenda driven governments.   

IMO they will never compete with petrol cars as long as one can't buy a second hand one cheap, like with petrol cars. Even if they were to be cheap second hand, who would buy one if having to replace the battery? I can see people trying to sell them when the battery replacement time comes near.

I've never ever owned a new car and not many do, I'm sure.

 

Once road user charges are imposed they won't even be much cheaper to drive.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I can't see how a hydrogen refuelling station would cost more than the CNG ones that were in every petrol station in North Island NZ some years ago. Basically same technology.

I await your evidence on that with interest.

 

Which countries use catalytic converters? None that I've lived in.

 

Stop referring only to people that drive short distances. I used to regularly drive 7 hours and refuelled half way. I and anyone else driving long distances have no desire to be stuck for a long time waiting for a/ a plug to become available b/ the batteries to recharge.

And when I offer my evidence, will you acknowledge it or just evaporate?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And when I offer my evidence, will you acknowledge it or just evaporate?

I'd have to click on all your posts to see, as you are on ignore, but if you do post a reply in the next week I'll endeavour to read it and I will reply.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'd have to click on all your posts to see, as you are on ignore, but if you do post a reply in the next week I'll endeavour to read it and I will reply.

Is this the end of the hydrogen highway?
A legislative fight over funding for hydrogen stations could be the fuel’s last gasp for passenger vehicles.

The stations are also expensive: The Energy Commission notes that building a hydrogen fueling station costs $6.5 million, while an EV charging station costs about $110,000.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/15/california-hydrogen-cars-00111323#:~:text=Part of the reason hydrogen,does a battery electric one.