Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, salavan said:

UK/THAILAND DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION 
SIGNED 18 FEBRUARY

the problem though is the tax threshold is a lot higher in the Uk than in Thailand, so you may fall below the level needed to pay tax in the UK but you cannot be below the tax threshold in Thailand based on what you have to show as income to get a retirement visa. So I will come down to interpretation - you can show you have been assessed for tax in the UK but as you cannot show you have paid any it may well be that you would have to pay in Thailand

[GeorgeCross]

39 minutes ago, freeworld said:

No Thailand does not tax savings, only income. Of course there should be a trail which could show that it is savings.

i'm sure they will let you bring in your savings AFTER you have paid your income taxes for every previous year.

 

[John Drake]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

In the run-up to the election I was nearly called names on this forum for suggesting we had nothing to win in any political change. Rants after rants were posted about "the will of the people". Well, there you are folks! The will of the people. The people need your money after they were promised hand-outs of cash.

Said the same thing, repeatedly. Just said it again, above, and was accused of making "drama." Fact is, things were more stable for expatriates under Prayuth. He did, after all, just want to keep things in place where the system everyone exploited was known. The new guy,  "Mr. Tax Man," has shown he will reverse on even his most basic promises from day one. PTP capable of anything.

[salavan]

4 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

the problem though is the tax threshold is a lot higher in the Uk than in Thailand, so you may fall below the level needed to pay tax in the UK but you cannot be below the tax threshold in Thailand based on what you have to show as income to get a retirement visa. So I will come down to interpretation - you can show you have been assessed for tax in the UK but as you cannot show you have paid any it may well be that you would have to pay in Thailand

There will be no personal allowance for foreigners in thailand

[Thaindrew]

15 minutes ago, zombie nights said:

If I changed from retirement visa to 5-year elite membership, how much do I need to pay ? Under the proposed new law would I then be exempt from income brought into Thailand?

I have asked Thailand elite / privilege to clarify and will advise if they respond

[GeorgeCross]

19 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The issue is the OP is incorrect.

The OP states this includes savings . When if you actually read the notice/instruction it is only refferinng to income from work activities and property whilst being a Thai tax resident

i get that, but if given a choice which do i send? income to be taxed or my savings to buy a condo?

 

and how would thailand know the difference?

 

they won't, so the onus will be on me to prove legitimacy and in that case i won't bother, i'll buy an asset in a friendlier state

[freeworld]

7 minutes ago, salavan said:

There will be no personal allowance for foreigners in thailand

In Thailand the applicable personal allowances for tax payers in Thailand are available.

Edited September 19, 2023 by freeworld

[sirineou]

39 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Not a criticism, but I have no idea what you have just said. 

 

But the UK doesn't tax personal savings that are remitted to the UK, or funds to purcahse a house, etc do they  ?  Isn't that one of the "suggestions" in this proposal ?
?

Each country has it's own tax laws given their particular economic situation. 

This is how reciprocal tax treaties work. 

A) Exclusion: If you pay tax situation in your home country is such where you are not taxed on a particular activity, then you are excluded from paying tax on that activity in the host country. 

B) Credit : If you pay tax for a particular economic activity in your home country, you receive credit for that amount. If the amount is equal or greater that the tax liability in the host country. you pay nothing, If the amount is lover that the required tax in the host country, you pay the difference. 

C) Inducement: some countries lower or eliminate the tax liability for expats to persuade expats to move there. For example , even though tax for Greek citizens is different, to induce expats to move there it has a lower tax rate of 7% for them. I know that because greece is my plan B. 

So let's all seat back and wait to see how the proposal is structured. It is possible that  there would be a credit, an inducement,  an exclusion, or a reduction  for retirees  , those here on a marriage visa , etc. 

Thailand has a progressive  tax police with brackets based on Thai incomes. Foreign income  rates being much higher than Thai incomes would place most expats in the high income brackets with a 30% tax rate , Obviously that would not be viable  because everyone would leave, and no one will come here. I and sure adjustments and exclusions will be implemented.  

[Thaindrew]

58 minutes ago, freeworld said:

If you are tax resident in Thailand and have not paid tax in the foreign jurisdiction because of the laws in that country then you will be subject to the tax laws in Thailand, provided the income will have been transferred to and received in a bank account in Thailand, the key here is income not just transferring savings.

 

 

try proving the savings didn't come from previous income, you could before given the "income from previous tax year" transfer rule, but that rule has gone, so now you'd need to prove the transferred funds had been taxed wherever those funds came from 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

So far, from reading most of these posts and other internet opinions, it looks to me that the intent is to tax income brought into Thailand that was generated in previous Tax years, as opposed to the current situation where they taxed only the income generated overseas in 'this' tax year.  Many people appear to have been 'holding' their income generated overseas in past years, and then bringing it in when it will not be taxed.

 

That is not the issue for most Expats (eg. rental received from proprrty overseas). The question I have is - will my Pension and/or Savings be taxed when I bring them into a bank account in Thailand.  I think this will be clarified soon enough - and I hope the answer is 'no' - otherwise we will be leaving Thailand.

 

Another concern about this for me, which seems to have been overlooked, is will the Thai Banks apply the 'applicable' tax rate to funds received from overseas into the account of a non-citizen tax resident. Thai Banks do not pay interest to non-citizen tax residents on funds in their standard bank account, because of the taxation complications involved.  I also am concerned about what Thai Banks might do with this 'taxation complication' when funds are transferred into Expats bank accounts from overseas.

 

I assume until we get a formal/legal explanation of exactly what this 'rule interpretation' means, we are all in a state of limbo - and it is very serious, because many will leave if they do tax our pensions/savings.  

 

I am reminded of what happenned when the Junta decided to 'enforce' (interpret) the Immigration Laws a lot more harshly than they previously did. Their clampdown/enforcement of the TM30 rule (reporting overnight stays) was the last straw for me and we left Thailand earlier than planned (to get the Aust Pension). If this goes the way I am worried it will, then this time we will leave and never return (full-time).  We came back after the Junta lost the election - I really hope that this is not the fire that we have jumped into (the pan was better).

 

[No Forwarding Address]

19 hours ago, RocketDog said:

To my knowledge, starting year or two ago one cannot get a visa for more than a month in Vietnam now without being married to a national.

NB. I went to Cambodia once and would never consider living there. To each his own though.

As of 15 August, there are 90 day Visa's in Vietnam, can be extended once then a border run for another 90 days so on so forth.   Hopefully they will reinstate the six month Visa for US applicants.........used to have a one year tourist visa for US folks, but that was years ago, no hope of that being resurrected.      Cheers

[Thaindrew]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So far, from reading most of these posts and other internet opinions, it looks to me that the intent is to tax income brought into Thailand that was generated in previous Tax years, as opposed to the current situation where they taxed only the income generated overseas in 'this' tax year.  Many people appear to have been 'holding' their income generated overseas in past years, and then bringing it in when it will not be taxed.

 

That is not the issue for most Expats (eg. rental received from proprrty overseas). The question I have is - will my Pension and/or Savings be taxed when I bring them into a bank account in Thailand.  I think this will be clarified soon enough - and I hope the answer is 'no' - otherwise we will be leaving Thailand.

 

Another concern about this for me, which seems to have been overlooked, is will the Thai Banks apply the 'applicable' tax rate to funds received from overseas into the account of a non-citizen tax resident. Thai Banks do not pay interest to non-citizen tax residents on funds in their standard bank account, because of the taxation complications involved.  I also am concerned about what Thai Banks might do with this 'taxation complication' when funds are transferred into Expats bank accounts from overseas.

 

I assume until we get a formal/legal explanation of exactly what this 'rule interpretation' means, we are all in a state of limbo - and it is very serious, because many will leave if they do tax our pensions/savings.  

 

I am reminded of what happenned when the Junta decided to 'enforce' (interpret) the Immigration Laws a lot more harshly than they previously did. Their clampdown/enforcement of the TM30 rule (reporting overnight stays) was the last straw for me and we left Thailand earlier than planned (to get the Aust Pension). If this goes the way I am worried it will, then this time we will leave and never return (full-time).  We came back after the Junta lost the election - I really hope that this is not the fire that we have jumped into (the pan was better).

 

I doubt the banks would take the "tax" on receipt of transferred funds, the statement seems to state that the funds are "to be assessed" for tax, which id take as meaning we will be forced to do a tax return stating the funds bought into Thailand and then we'd have to prove tax has been paid at the same or higher rate than the relevant Thai rate - if so no tax 

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thai Banks do not pay interest to non-citizen tax residents on funds in their standard bank account, because of the taxation complications involved.

??? My SCB bank account pays interest, it amounts to almost nothing, but it does pay interest.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

i get that, but if given a choice which do i send? income to be taxed or my savings to buy a condo?

 

and how would thailand know the difference?

 

they won't, so the onus will be on me to prove legitimacy and in that case i won't bother, i'll buy an asset in a friendlier state

Yes - that is exactly the issue - will I have to 'prove' the money I brought into Thailand was not income, and what will the Thai Banks do with those funds while I provide 'proof'. Will the funds be 'held' in an escrow type arrangement, awaiting proof? Will Thai Banks merely report the transfer and later the Thai Tax Department demands an explanation and requests me to come in and 'discuss' the situation?  Yes I know, that is unlikely, but fining Expats 1900 Baht because a hotel failed to complete the TM30 happened to many people. 

[John Drake]

33 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

Yeah, what could go wrong with handing over your sensitive tax documents to such a secure and safe government like there is in Thailand?

Yep. Absolutely no chance of it being used for identity theft and somebody needing, say, a social security number for illegal work in the US.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts in violation of our Community Standards and the replies have been removed.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

??? My SCB bank account pays interest, it amounts to almost nothing, but it does pay interest.

Most do not - my bank accounts (Bangkok Bank and Kringsri) pay me no interest.  They are 'old' ones though - opened when I first came to Thailand over 12 years ago.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

8 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

I doubt the banks would take the "tax" on receipt of transferred funds, the statement seems to state that the funds are "to be assessed" for tax, which id take as meaning we will be forced to do a tax return stating the funds bought into Thailand and then we'd have to prove tax has been paid at the same or higher rate than the relevant Thai rate - if so no tax 

You are probably right.  But how will someone prove that the money in their Aust Super Fund, and which was moved into a Aust Bank account, and then into a Thai bank account, was taxed 2 to 30 years ago. Will I be forced to pay tax if I am unable to prove that the funds I brought over to buy a property were previously taxed.

I think that is the big issue - the amounts involved in Pensions remitted to Thailand will not be an issue IMO - but the Millions of Baht remitted to pay for a property/car will IMO 'attract their attention'. 

[Thaindrew]

5 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You are probably right.  But how will someone prove that the money in their Aust Super Fund, and which was moved into a Aust Bank account, and then into a Thai bank account, was taxed 2 to 30 years ago. Will I be forced to pay tax if I am unable to prove that the funds I brought over to buy a property were previously taxed.

I think that is the big issue - the amounts involved in Pensions remitted to Thailand will not be an issue IMO - but the Millions of Baht remitted to pay for a property/car will IMO 'attract their attention'. 

loads of issues as usual after a Thai Govt proclamation.

 

Pensions could well be an issue though as tax free thresholds in Thailand are lower than most other countries, so people may not be liable for tax in say the UK as its below the threshold but it couldn't be below the Thai threshold which is 150k a year so below what you have to declare as income to get a Thai "retirement visa". its going to come down to interpretation, will they consider "assessed for tax in the UK but not liable" as enough of a justification to not pay in Thailand - it sounds like not but pensioners will rightly be up in arms 

[Tippaporn]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:35 AM, freeworld said:

Its not a money grab if it follows the law or new laws are implemented for govt to get new sources of income.

 

No doubt foreigners residing in Thailand and making use of govt services and infrastructure should be paying tax in Thailand, this is a fuction of the world order.

 

I thought everyone is agreeable to paying their fair share? This is the mantra spewed by many.

 

Its all about being free.

"No doubt foreigners residing in Thailand and making use of govt services and infrastructure should be paying tax in Thailand . . . "

The old gov't services and infrastructure fallacy.  If all tax money were spent legitimately then they'd be flush with cash.  But that's not what happens in the real world.  I reject your claim that you were born yesterday.

[freeworld]

29 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

try proving the savings didn't come from previous income, you could before given the "income from previous tax year" transfer rule, but that rule has gone, so now you'd need to prove the transferred funds had been taxed wherever those funds came from 

In this day and age it should be quite easily provable. Online records and bank statements, salary slips, tax submissions etc... are available everywhere or should be obtainable.

Edited September 19, 2023 by freeworld

[freeworld]

10 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

"No doubt foreigners residing in Thailand and making use of govt services and infrastructure should be paying tax in Thailand . . . "

The old gov't services and infrastructure fallacy.  If all tax money were spent legitimately then they'd be flush with cash.  But that's not what happens in the real world.  I reject your claim that you were born yesterday.

I concur, govt expansion and its control and minute regulation and monitoring of everybody and the misuse of borrowings and income taxes is out of control.

Edited September 19, 2023 by freeworld

[Thaindrew]

8 minutes ago, freeworld said:

In this day and age it should be quite easily provable. Online records and bank statements, salary slips, tax submissions etc... are available everywhere or should be obtainable.

potentially a lot of work though, especially if bringing in 20MBaht to buy a property

 

also don't forget many people don't have to pay tax, for example the Uk threshold means many pensions are not taxed, but the threshold here is lower so you cannot prove you paid tax as in fact you didn't have to

[freeworld]

41 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

I have asked Thailand elite / privilege to clarify and will advise if they respond

It would depend if there was a law or policy excluding elite visa holders from Thai tax otherwise everyone will be in the same boat based on tax residence.

 

I suppose the complication of different Thai residencies and sources of income transferred into Thailand by foreigners will come to light by the Thailand govt and tax authorities who will study and work to find a solution.

[freeworld]

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

potentially a lot of work though, especially if bringing in 20MBaht to buy a property

 

also don't forget many people don't have to pay tax, for example the Uk threshold means many pensions are not taxed, but the threshold here is lower so you cannot prove you paid tax as in fact you didn't have to

Yes, but I guess a kind of letter could be obtained from the UK authorities to state something or if they do not at least the communication could be shown as proof.

[Thaindrew]

8 minutes ago, freeworld said:

It would depend if there was a law or policy excluding elite visa holders from Thai tax otherwise everyone will be in the same boat based on tax residence.

 

I suppose the complication of different Thai residencies and sources of income transferred into Thailand by foreigners will come to light by the Thailand govt and tax authorities who will study and work to find a solution.

I'd say at the new costs of the Thai Elite Visa, if you would also be taxed, then those visas will be much less attractive than before - people will chose to stay here less than 6 months a year and chose a different visa option

Edited September 19, 2023 by Thaindrew

[RocketDog]

37 minutes ago, No Forwarding Address said:

As of 15 August, there are 90 day Visa's in Vietnam, can be extended once then a border run for another 90 days so on so forth.   Hopefully they will reinstate the six month Visa for US applicants.........used to have a one year tourist visa for US folks, but that was years ago, no hope of that being resurrected.      Cheers

Well, if unlimited border hops work that's good, but still makes it hard to live there.

When I retired in 2016 I got a 1 yr VISA to VN intending to live there. I landed in Bangkok and then never made it to VN. Maybe good since I would have to leave soon anyway unless I married a native. That wasn't in my plans either.

I'm now happily settled here and plan to stay. I spent time in VN in 2014 and like the Kingdom better anyway. The language here is easier to learn than VN I think.

[gamb00ler]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

Sorry but your conclusion is wrong. What the banks take from our accounts is called 'withholding tax' which which takes the form of a collective payment to the revenue services. It is not attributed to an individual tax payer anymore than is VAT is when you purchase goods in a shop.

You have correctly named the funds withheld by banks, but the rest is not accurate.  It is attributed to the account holder (by name) even if they don't have have a Thai tax ID.  At the end of the calendar year the account holder can file a Thai tax return and most likely get all the withholding back (dependent upon other income).  If you don't like the nuisance of filing Thai income tax AND your interest income is below 20K ฿ you can apply for a Thai tax and give it to the bank(s) and request they don't withhold tax until your interest exceeds the 20K exemption.  Plus there are personal exemptions, so anybody earning less than about 200K ฿ won't pay any tax.

[Geir Rasch]

1 hour ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I for example previously worked in a Tax Haven, there's no agreement with Thailand, now if i bring funds in i am looking at 35% plus VAT on expenditure,

Tax in Thailand are progressiv with 35% as top, only paid for income over a certain sum. Point is: Nobody in Thailand pay 35% tax of their income, but some (the very rich) can have 35% as a marginal tax.

[Seppius]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:35 AM, freeworld said:

Its not a money grab if it follows the law or new laws are implemented for govt to get new sources of income.

 

No doubt foreigners residing in Thailand and making use of govt services and infrastructure should be paying tax in Thailand, this is a fuction of the world order.

 

I thought everyone is agreeable to paying their fair share? This is the mantra spewed by many.

 

Its all about being free.

I thought it was called a "bar fine"????