Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You can believe whatever you want Mike - so can I.  Read yesterday's and today's BP articles - just for starters.

You're really quite new here, aren't you, the media you mention rarely gets much right at all and isn't close to being a reliable source of fact.

[JackGats]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I can see the potential for Immigration to require confirmation of taxes paid/tax return filed, before a long term visa is extended, I think that's a very real possibility.

And I can see a further juicy source of income for workaround visa agencies and IOs.

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

How would Thailand differentiate if transfers are from past or current earnings.  Also, how would Thailand have any idea of what I earned in dividends?  They can't access my USA tax records.  

I don't see how they can. I would expect instead (in the case of people on retirement extensions/visa) some sort of attestation you can make that the source of funds was savings from income earned before becoming a Thai resident.

 

IF retirees are required to submit documentation at all. Between the fact that some types of retirement income are non-Assessable under DTAs, savings from income earned before becoming a Thai resident are also non-assessable,  and that tax credits have to be provided for any tax paid in the home country, the potential gain in revenue would be quite small and the whole thing a huge hassle.

 

It is worth noting that under the old rules, overseas pensions directly remitted to Thailand (except were exempted under a DTA) were always taxable yet as far as I know, no effort was ever made to enforce that.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, atpeace said:

How would Thailand differentiate if transfers are from past or current earnings.  Also, how would Thailand have any idea of what I earned in dividends?  They can't access my USA tax records.  

Great points mate.  How they do that is that your tax returns are checked - so you have to tell them - it is a voluntary system.  But if you dont tell them and they later find out - that itself is a big risk.  However, the money you remitted into Thailand you will have to declare that it is savings or whatever, and not income. They can then, if they want to, require you to prove that - they probably wont unless it is a large amount - but who knows how they will manage this change.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

It is worth noting that under the old rules, overseas pensions directly remitted to Thailand (except were exempted under a DTA) were always taxable yet as far as I know, no effort was ever made to enforce that.

Yes, because of the difficulty in proving whether the money was savings or income and that problem still exists today, despite Thailand joining CRS. All that really changes on that front is Thailand now has the ability to ask your home country for relevant tax information to try and determine the matter more precisely. Personally, I cannot see either the Thai RD or the overseas tax authority being too interested in getting to the bottom of whether John's USD 12k was truly savings or not.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

41 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

I wonder if the thai tax authorities will remit info to the irs in the usa, regarding taxation, like they do now with bank accounts?

 

That could lead to audits. The irs loves to pick on expats, offshore accounts and bank accounts with foreign addresses.

Yes Jim - that could easily happen to a US Citizen. The USA is different to all other countries - they tax any income earned by a US Citizen anywhere in ther world - unless exception has been applied for.  How this tax change in Thailand affects US Citizens going forward will be different for most other Expats from other countries where they accept that their ciitizens can be taxed in other countries. I would say that most US Citizens would be better off than the rest of us following this change - proving you have already been taxed by USA will not be such a burden I believe and will also be accepted easier too I think.

[hotandsticky]

11 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

One liners without any argument.

 

Seems someone is heavily invested in Thailand. Enjoy your tax returns! 

Au contraire.

 

Not invested in Thailand at all.  What I spend in Thailand is from cash flow and once spent has gone - whether it be a house, car or monthly expenditure.

 

I will never complete a tax return in Thailand. Period.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You're really quite new here, aren't you, the media you mention rarely gets much right at all and isn't close to being a reliable source of fact.

True. And neither you. Nor me. But we all do have our opinions. And that is all we have at the moment - opinions.

 

Maybe you know Mike - Question - If a tax resident has no taxable income in Thailand, do they have to lodge a tax return.  Question 2 - Does/Will/Can that change under this new tax rule/interpretation.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, because of the difficulty in proving whether the money was savings or income and that problem still exists today, despite Thailand joining CRS. All that really changes on that front is Thailand now has the ability to ask your home country for relevant tax information to try and determine the matter more precisely. Personally, I cannot see either the Thai RD or the overseas tax authority being too interested in getting to the bottom of whether John's USD 12k was truly savings or not.

I hear you - but what do you think about the 1 Million Baht that I transfer over every year?

And what about the 5 Million Baht when I buy a property in the near future?

IMO I think that they will not be interested in John too - but IMO they could be very interested in me.

[The Cyclist]

A Brit here and his viewpoint

 

There are some headless chickens on here that protest too much, or are trying their utmost to spread fear and panic. For reasons known only to themselves.

 

New tax law from 1st Jan 2024

 

Deposit account with extension money, no deposits and no withdrawals since 2010. New tax law will have no effect on this account

 

$ account. No deposits since Jan 2020. New tax law will have no effect on this account.

 

As all deposits made prior to 01Jan 2024.

 

Main account. 2 x UK Pensions paid direct from the UK, both taxed in the UK and land in Thailand to the tune of around Baht 115k a month.

 

Pension 1. Government ( Forces ) non taxable as per DTA.

 

Pension 2. Private and apparently taxable according to the DTA.

 

Pension 2, I have just emailed a change of bank details. Last payment to Thailand will be on the 15 Dec.

 

Therefore ( as best as I can tell ) I will have no tax liability in Thailand after the 01 Jan 2004 as the only money remitted to Thailand after this date will be my Forces Pension.

 

For those worrying about proofs. Both my Pensions send me annually a P60 and a statement of future payments.

 

The P60 contains the annual amount and the tax paid.

 

The Statement of future payments contains the monthly payment and the amount of tax deducted.

 

I am quite confident that the P60's and Statement of future payments will be more than adequate to satisfy the RD.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

True. And neither you. Nor me. But we all do have our opinions. And that is all we have at the moment - opinions.

 

Maybe you know Mike - Question - If a tax resident has no taxable income in Thailand, do they have to lodge a tax return.  Question 2 - Does/Will/Can that change under this new tax rule/interpretation.

1) No they do not, currently.

 

2) I don't see why it would, it would make no sense. If for no other reason the RD is not geared up to go from receiving tax returns from 5% of the population, up to 100%. 

 

[deejai33]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

 

 

We've all been warned, starting 1 January 2024, all inbound transactions have the potential to be scrutinised for tax in the way I described earlier. Now would be a good time to import savings or at least, bring their importation forward to before 1 January 2024. 

Not quite accurate.  

 

The 'loophole' allowed remitting income from 2022.   

 

Income from 2023 was always potentially taxable in 2023.

 

You should say remitt only 2022 or previous income before end of 2023.  Its your last chance to use the loophole.

 

If you bring 2023 income in, its could be taxed under current laws and its always been that way.  

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you - but what do you think about the 1 Million Baht that I transfer over every year?

And what about the 5 Million Baht when I buy a property in the near future?

IMO I think that they will not be interested in John too - but IMO they could be very interested in me.

Respectfully, the numbers you mention wont interest the RD, nobody will suddenly bolt up right and press the alarms. It is possible that if you import enough funds on a sufficiently large scale, frequently, somebody may get curious, especially if they don't see a tax return from you that explains things. The 5 mill. for the property is especially of no interest because presumably you will state on the transfer form the reason for the transfer. The RD is more concerned about income and tax avoidance than capital transfers to buy real estate.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, deejai33 said:

Not quite accurate.  

 

The 'loophole' allowed remitting income from 2022.   

 

Income from 2023 was always potentially taxable in 2023.

 

You should say remitt only 2022 or previous income before end of 2023.

 

If you bring 2023 income in, its could be taxed under current laws and its always been that way.  

 

You talk about income, I only talked about savings so yes, entirely accurate.

[Robbyboy]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:22 PM, Isaan sailor said:

Thailand to tourists—please come.

Thailand to expats—please leave.

Thailand to tourists…. DON’T COME, just send your money 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

1) No they do not, currently.

 

2) I don't see why it would, it would make no sense. If for no other reason the RD is not geared up to go from receiving tax returns from 5% of the population, up to 100%. 

 

Thanks.

 

Could you also provide your view on this statement from that Sherringsa brief:

 

[Robbyboy]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Respectfully, the numbers you mention wont interest the RD, nobody will suddenly bolt up right and press the alarms. It is possible that if you import enough funds on a sufficiently large scale, frequently, somebody may get curious, especially if they don't see a tax return from you that explains things. The 5 mill. for the property is especially of no interest because presumably you will state on the transfer form the reason for the transfer. The RD is more concerned about income and tax avoidance than capital transfers to buy real estate.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Respectfully, the numbers you mention wont interest the RD, nobody will suddenly bolt up right and press the alarms. It is possible that if you import enough funds on a sufficiently large scale, frequently, somebody may get curious, especially if they don't see a tax return from you that explains things. The 5 mill. for the property is especially of no interest because presumably you will state on the transfer form the reason for the transfer. The RD is more concerned about income and tax avoidance than capital transfers to buy real estate.

 

 

From re-reading the article it doesn’t specify foreigners.  And the government will likely make the banks forward records of our transfers.  I live in the US with a Thai wife and her sister is here too.  I Transfer money to Thailand often for all of us. I interpret this that my Thai wife will even be subject to this taxation on money she sends over there, even she just goes for holiday but lives in the US.  

[Mike Lister]

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks.

 

Could you also provide your view on this statement from that Sherringsa brief:

 

I think what that says is that the pension money is assessable income under Thai tax law which must be declared to tax in the tax year it is imported, notwithstanding the fact any DTA may require that money to be treated in a certain way, eg disregarded.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Robbyboy said:

 

From re-reading the article it doesn’t specify foreigners.  And the government will likely make the banks forward records of our transfers.  I live in the US with a Thai wife and her sister is here too.  I Transfer money to Thailand often for all of us. I interpret this that my Thai wife will even be subject to this taxation on money she sends over there, even she just goes for holiday but lives in the US.  

The banks act as agents  of BOT, the Central Bank, and send details of ALL inbound and outbound remittances to BOT daily, it's the only way BOT can manage the forex market in Thailand and its currency.

 

As far as your wife is concerned: she lives in the US and spends less than 180 days per year in Thailand hence she is not Thai tax resident.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Respectfully, the numbers you mention wont interest the RD, nobody will suddenly bolt up right and press the alarms. It is possible that if you import enough funds on a sufficiently large scale, frequently, somebody may get curious, especially if they don't see a tax return from you that explains things. The 5 mill. for the property is especially of no interest because presumably you will state on the transfer form the reason for the transfer. The RD is more concerned about income and tax avoidance than capital transfers to buy real estate.

 

 

Good Luck with that attitude - and I hope you are right. But something tells me you are being overly optimistic - and I am being overly negative.  Like I said already several times - I also plan for the worst case, not only the best case. 

 

Respectfully, if/when the Thai RD provides all the clarifications and exemptions and definitions that is being requested/demanded by many pundits, then and only then will I seek advice from a tax expert as to what my future course of action should be regarding this change in the income tax rules/method in Thailand. 

 

I can tell you this now Mike - Will I be happy to stay in Thailand and pay over 120K per year for 10-15 years for the privilege of being treated as a second class tourist with all the Immigration impositions, reportings, annual beggings, paying extra, and a total lack of rights and no Govt services? NO.

I will be happy to stay in Thailand and do an annual tax return (if required for whatever reason) if and only if I am not required to pay income taxes in Thailand (a very small amount would be OK). 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good Luck with that attitude - and I hope you are right. But something tells me you are being overly optimistic - and I am being overly negative.  Like I said already several times - I also plan for the worst case, not only the best case. 

 

Respectfully, if/when the Thai RD provides all the clarifications and exemptions and definitions that is being requested/demanded by many pundits, then and only then will I seek advice from a tax expert as to what my future course of action should be regarding this change in the income tax rules/method in Thailand. 

 

I can tell you this now Mike - Will I be happy to stay in Thailand and pay over 120K per year for 10-15 years for the privilege of being treated as a second class tourist with all the Immigration impositions, reportings, annual beggings, paying extra, and a total lack of rights and no Govt services? NO.

I will be happy to stay in Thailand and do an annual tax return (if required for whatever reason) if and only if I am not required to pay income taxes in Thailand (a very small amount would be OK). 

 

I transferred in over 8 million, 15 years ago, nobody said anything, a million a year is nothing by comparison. An American chum purchased three condo's about 12 years ago and transferred large sums in the space of a week. His Thai wife got a call from BOT and asked her what they were doing and she explained they were buying condo's for investment.....oh, OK then, end of. That was 25 million in three transfers.

[Sheryl]

22 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks.

 

Could you also provide your view on this statement from that Sherringsa brief:

 

Not true for some types of pensions under some DTAs. True for others.

[JimTripper]

What's the deadline date for filing for the 2024 tax year?

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I think what that says is that the pension money is assessable income under Thai tax law which must be declared to tax in the tax year it is imported, notwithstanding the fact any DTA may require that money to be treated in a certain way, eg disregarded.

But if no tax due, no return required, yes?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

But if no tax due, no return required, yes?

Correct.

[retiree]

22 minutes ago, Robbyboy said:

I interpret this that my Thai wife will even be subject to this taxation on money she sends over there, even she just goes for holiday but lives in the US.

1.Taxable Person

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.   https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[Celsius]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I transferred in over 8 million, 15 years ago, nobody said anything, a million a year is nothing by comparison. An American chum purchased three condo's about 12 years ago and transferred large sums in the space of a week. His Thai wife got a call from BOT and asked her what they were doing and she explained they were buying condo's for investment.....oh, OK then, end of. That was 25 million in three transfers.

 

What does this have to do with new rules supposedly coming up? Nothing.

[beammeup]

So capital transfers for cars, condo's etc will not likely be taxed as income?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

38 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I think what that says is that the pension money is assessable income under Thai tax law which must be declared to tax in the tax year it is imported, notwithstanding the fact any DTA may require that money to be treated in a certain way, eg disregarded.

So how many Expats do you think are in Thailand and receive either a partial pension or a full pension?

If you are right then it means they we will all have to lodge a tax return and claim that under the DTA our pensions are not taxable in Thailand.

And what do you recommend we do if the Thai RD decides that I/we are wrong, and/or that the 'evidence' we provided is insufficient, and they decide that I/we must pay income tax?

Have you examined the appeals process against a Thai RD decision? I have (planning for worst case) - and it is horrendously difficult - besides being only acceptable in Thai (with multiple and certified translations), it would cost a lot of money hiring an accepotable Thai lawtyer/.accountant to compile and lodge that appeal, and from what I could find, they are extremely reluctant to agree that they were wrong. 

Plus - what about if the money I bring into Thailand is from multiple sources - how do I or anyone prove that x amount is pension, y amount is savings, z amount is superannuation, etc.  If you still cannot see how complicated and difficult this would be for most Expats, then we have nothing to talk about.  

[hotandsticky]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So how many Expats do you think are in Thailand and receive either a partial pension or a full pension?

If you are right then it means they we will all have to lodge a tax return and claim that under the DTA our pensions are not taxable in Thailand.

And what do you recommend we do if the Thai RD decides that I/we are wrong, and/or that the 'evidence' we provided is insufficient, and they decide that I/we must pay income tax?

Have you examined the appeals process against a Thai RD decision? I have (planning for worst case) - and it is horrendously difficult - besides being only acceptable in Thai (with multiple and certified translations), it would cost a lot of money hiring an acceptable Thai lawyer/.accountant to compile and lodge that appeal, and from what I could find, they are extremely reluctant to agree that they were wrong. 

Plus - what about if the money I bring into Thailand is from multiple sources - how do I or anyone prove that x amount is pension, y amount is savings, z amount is superannuation, etc.  If you still cannot see how complicated and difficult this would be for most Expats, then we have nothing to talk about.  

 

You do seem to be unnecessarily devoting an inordinate amount of time to this subject.